slvrblitaccord

Hi All. I have a 96 Accord v6 with 200k+ miles on it and I need to pass smog or ditch the car. I love this car - had it for 14 years. I failed initially for high hydro carbons but mostly for blowing A LOT of smoke on the dyno. Car doesn't really smoke at all while driving. I took it to my mechanic who checked compression and all seemed good (I can get the numbers if it would help), put in some mystery oil, told me to buy some "no smoke" and drive it for a few hundred miles then try again. Yesterday I went back to the mechanic, they revved the engine, no smoke, so we took it over to the smog check. But once on the dyno, started smoking again and the guy said the numbers were actually worse this time around. Mechanics told me afterwards they're basically through unless I want to rebuild the engine, or buy a used engine. Neither seem worth the investment on a car this old and a transmission with that many miles. But they also mentioned doing a ring job on it. QUESTION - is replacing the rings something I can do by myself if I can follow some decent instructions? I've done some moderate engine work in the past, but am in no way a true gear head. Do I have to pull the engine? need special tools? Any other ideas or hail mary options anyone can think of to get this to pass? Or is it the end of the line for my silver bullet? thanks very much!
(PS - I'm told I'd probably need to replace the cat too to pass smog, but i'll tackle that if I can get the smoking to stop...)

94 accord typeR

not 100% but im pretty sure piston ring issues can be discovered during a compression test. hopefully someone else can confirm.

also, if u want, check out some videos on youtube and see if its within ur abilities

MAD_MIKE

I take it the engine revving at the mechanics is no load(not in gear) and the engine revving at the smog check is when the car is in gear, has a load, and is spinning the dyno drum?

If so then you may want to check a few items before dumping the car.
What color is the smoke that comes out of the tail pipe?
What does it smell like?
What are your emission numbers? If Calif, post up your 5 gas test results.
Post up the compression numbers for the cylinders, if they did a check they should have the numbers written down.
Check your PCV system. If it is inundunated with oil for whatever reason, clean it out and verify it is not sucking in more oil. If it is sucking in more oil find out why.
Pull a valve cover and inspect the valve spring umbrella seals. If they are worn or missing on the intake side, under load the engine will ingest engine oil and smoke.

More information is needed.

slvrblitaccord

thanks guys. I'll post numbers later tonight when I get home. Hopefully you can check back again and weigh in. Appreciate your expertise on this.

95accordCE6

What color is the smoke?

slvrblitaccord

was pretty blue-ish. after a month of mystery oil and "no-smoke" it's trending lighter, if that makes any sense.

95accordCE6

Ok, so do a compression test as mad mike suggested. Normal pressure should be arouns 170psi, 142 is the minimum. Maximum variation b/w cylinders is 28psi

MAD_MIKE

If the rings are gummed up or carbon fouled the rings can stick and not allow proper oil and/or compression control.

Seafoam and other types of engine cleaners can break down and remove the buildup of varish, gum, and carbon.
If the drain holes in the cylinder heads are also plugged up with carbon this can cause the cylinder heads to become full with excessive oil, leading to oil ingestion through the valve guides and PCV system.

If your oil is very dark/black you may want to try an engine flush. Warn you engine up, drain your oil, leave old filter on, refill crankcase with ATF, let idle for 10-15mins with no load, drain ATF, replace filter and add oil. I've had good luck with this removing a bit of gunk use the ATF flush.

95accordCE6

That's pretty cool, I honestly never knew about using ATF like that. Are there any side effects?

slvrblitaccord

compression test:
1 - 165
2 - 120/125
3 - 160
4 - 160
5 - 150
6 - 155
(note below where the mechanic wrote this down says "#2 cyl low dry/wet")

from smog check:
(first number is @ 15 mph; second number is @ 25 mph)
%CO2 - 14.5; 14.8
%O2 - 0.0; 0.0
HC - 147; 42
CO - 0.42; 0.03
NO - 310; 197

thanks guys for all your input!

MAD_MIKE

ATF is pretty strong with cleaners/detergents.
There is a bit of debate on loosening up sludge that may have particulate matter(bearing bits/metal) inside that may cause damage if it gets sucked up by the sump, but most heavy bits will sink to the bottom of the sump. IMO I would rather try and flush the goo out rather than wait for it to build up or a chunk to break loose while driving.

If you do not want to idle the engine on pure ATF, another old trick is to just replace a quart of oil with a quart of ATF. You can still drive the car normally. This is similar to what SeaFoam does. SeaFoam TransTune is stronger than normal SeaFoam or ATF. http://seafoamsales.com/i-accidental...-my-fuel-tank/
I've been thinking of adding Trans Tune to an engine flush, or just the crank case and see how much junk comes out.

Adding oil is a way to tell what is failing. Low compression, add oil. If the compression stay the same, most likely the pistons/rings/cylinder wall are fine and there is a problem elsewhere, be it a head gasket or most likely a valve is burnt/bent/worn.

I know later OBDII systems can pull the spark and fuel from a dead cylinder to prevent damage to the catalyst, but on the CE I do not know how 'intelligent' the PCM is. If it 'knew' there was a problem cylinder I would have expected it to pull enough fuel to pump some air(O2) into the exhaust.

As you can see at the higher rpms the catalyst gets heated up, the reduction and oxidization works better.

slvrblitaccord

So, what is your overall recommendation?
Doesn't seem like bad cylinders/rings based on numbers so just try the seafoam/ATF? Also, I pulled the pcv valve last night. It was a bit oily looking on the end, with some buildup inside the hole, but it wasn't dripping wet or anything. Does that seem like a problem? I'd like to post a pic for you but not sure I can as a new member. I'm probably capable enough to replace some gaskets so long as I can get to them without pulling the engine, if it seems that would help??
Thanks again for your input!

95accordCE6

Since its cheap i would replace the pcv, if it get clogged the pressure has nowhere to go. Our pcv valves catch alot of oil, especially as the engine gets older. Also i dont think our ecus are smart enough to pull fuel and spark, it only adapts to overall afrs and fuel trim to my knowledge, and the obvious temp, air and load inputs

95accordCE6

Do you have any valve noise? Or have they been adjusted? Also good stuff to know

slvrblitaccord

No idea when the valves were last adjusted, but I've never noticed any valve noise.

MAD_MIKE

Verify what is causing the low compression.
I'm leaning towards a valve not properly sealing, which would require pulling that head for inspection and repair.
I do not know if the 2.7 has adjustable valvetrain, if there is varnish buildup the valve may be hanging open, seafoam and ATF can aid in breaking that down and unsticking the valve.

What did your mechanic say/recommend with the low numbers?

95accordCE6

Agree with suggestions. As for the valve train on the 2.7, it's a mess lol it has hydraulic tappets however the rocker arms are adjustable. I don't have the specs in front of me right now and my chiltons manual is no help because it just says that they're hydraulic, and technically that's correct besides the rockers. Since there's no noise I'll lean away from the adjustment being an issue, but the varnish would make sense.

slvrblitaccord

The only thing my mechanic mentioned to me was ring job and the idea of a complete engine rebuild or buying a used engine. He didn't push either option because of how old the car is and the transmission having 200k on it as well. So he basically gave up once the mystery oil didn't do the job. What should it cost to have the valve heads pulled and inspected? I'm really at the point of return on investment - if anyone thinks there's a moderately cheap fix or fix I can attempt on my own, I'm willing to give it a shot. But it's probably not sensible to put thousands worth of work into a car this old. Thanks.

95accordCE6

Take mikes advice and try running the ATF with your oil or sea foam and see if it clears things up

HonBeer

The engine smoke does not affect the emissions. Most would think it would but it does not matter. I had a 1981 Toyota Cressida that smoked like a bug sprayer. It passed emissions.

slvrblitaccord

CA has different smog standards. They can now fail you on sight alone if your car shows any exhaust smoke - regardless of the emissions numbers. At least that's what my mechanic told me.