ocram_88

Hi!
I've got this feeling when i drive my 1993 honda civic. It feels like front wheels could move a a bit from their position, like shopping cart wheels when they can move a bit. It's not a vibration, just like i keep my steering wheel and wheels could move a bit. This feeling can be appreciate from 50 MPH (about 90 Km/h). So the more i go faster (60 and over )the more steering response is retarded.
Now i've got stock shock absorbers and it goes better. I had D2 and Bc coilovers but drive feeling was worse.

I've made several upgrades in the last year and have about 6000 Miles:
- Energy suspension kit
- new outer and inner tie rod
- new front wheel bearing
- Remanufactured DC2 steering rack
- new right lower ball joint
- Tested postitive and negative wheels alignment with the same looes feeling
- Oz ultraleggera 15"x7j
- 195 50 15 Yokohama neova ad08


It is so strage to me. I've driven several EGs and they don't feel so loose at high speed.
What could i look for?

Thanks

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Have you checked the U joint in the steering column? It looks like you've covered pretty much everything else.

digitalvice

I know that my buddy had gone through basically the same issue just recently and replaced a bunch of crap to find out he was lug centric instead of hub centric as the bore size on the rim where different then the hub.

ocram_88

Yes i have. They are ok.
I've got also eg6 sway bars, DC2 performance rod bar and eg6 strut bar. Instead that i feel my front loose.
Did i forgot to check or replace anything else?

Edit:
@Digitavice: I don't undestrand what you mean

NerfGunner420

out and inner tie rods.

ocram_88

Outer and inner tie rods are brand new.
Digitavice maybe I undestand. Are you refering to my Oz center rings? If it is, they are the perfect size of honda. They came with OZ and i bought them new. They are for honda civic eg and the wheels perfectly face the hub.

cetcivic

Have you checked the bolts in front of the steering rack?

Had this happen to me once and it was the bolts , they were loose.

Norlael

also did you get an alignment when you replaced the tie rods? sounds like one tire has more toe then the other

ocram_88

This afternoon i went to my box and jacked up my car. Checked all bolts in the front: steering rack, suspensions, struts, ball joints and rear beam. All bolts are tightened and there is no play.
@Norleal: Yes, we tried both positive and negative angles. Same loose feeling and response.

NerfGunner420

what about your radius arms? are they tight? what about the sub frame are the bolts tight? are the tires mounted right? tires have rotation they are suppose to be mounted correctly...... also torque down your wheels don't drive them with impact or just go ape crazy on the 8ft breaker bar hahaha

stupidhard

I agree with this hypothesis, a toe out condition can make for an unstable feel. too much toe in would make it darty.

get an alignment and re evaluate how she rolls.

-chris

ocram_88

Thanks guys for supprt and tips.
I took 10 days on holydays. Yesterday i borught my car to one of the best suspension and steering workshop in Rome. I made my car checked totally.
Reslut was:
No play on suspensions, ball joints , tie rods, wheel bearings, steering rack and steering joints.
Chassis is ok (that's awesome).

Things i'm suggested to change are:
Left inner and outer tie rod because they are bent and left knuckle.
More in datails the left knuckle is bent (not visible by eye) on the "arm" where is Linked to the outer tie rods end, but Caster and Camber are Good. . Caster: both 10' and Camber: R:-1°20' L:-1°15' (No camber kit and -3 cm bilstein b12 kit)...
I bought eg6 knuckles to swap dc2 calipers and i don't know their history.

They told me i've got a problem in the steering angle. And that should give me this feeling of loose steering, late response.
What i didn't mantioned is that my car pulls a bit to the right and they also told me that is all linked.


What do you think about it?

B serious

iTrader: (1)

What about the rear alignment and bushings?

How old are your energy bushings. Anything over 1-2 years, and they're probably suspect. Did you use the energy rear trailing arm bushing? You're not supposed to ....

How is your rear toe? Are the bolts on the toe arms tight? Any rear bushings torn?

stupidhard

^ don't rule this out buuuut...

here is some theory...

ackerman steering geometry is designed to turn the inside corning wheel sharper because it makes a smaller circle.

the traits your car is said to be exhibiting, as I mentioned previously, is characteristic of a toe out condition and could manifest even when static alignment is good/correct.

sounds like whats happening is (sight unseen) your left wheel turns too sharp when you turn left and not sharp enough when you turn right. this is because the geometry has been altered by the bent parts. im willing to bet your car also turns right a bit better than it turns left.

sounds like your guy at the shop was spot on imo. change said parts and report back with your results.

good luck
-chris

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Suspect after 1-2 years? "Not supposed to" use the RTA? Are you high?

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Not yet. But the night is young. Infact, I just got this new stuff and I.....nevermind....

It's not uncommon for load bearing Energy bushings to fail after about 1-2 years of use. Especially if you use the RTA bushing. You should never use a polyurethane bushing in an application like the RTA.

Back when I was just a boy....I saw the solid shape of polyurethane RTA bushings and thought "wtf, what a terrible idea". Then I discovered that people started to have the exact issue that I was predicting they'd have. Lack of articulation of the RTA. The cars would handle badly and then the bushing would eventually tear. I think I remember for a while, Energy or Prothane had some warning on their site about using their solid RTA bushings. They did not recommend it for anything except drag racing use.

Since you seem uninformed about the issue: The RTA bushing has all those reliefs in it because it needs to pivot, stretch, and move as the RTA articulates. Poly doesn't allow that type of movement. The first thing you'd notice with poly RTA bushings is the lack of toe compliance and weird handling. Then after they tear (something has to give, and poly is still softer than steel, last I checked), you get massive sloppiness in the RTA.

Google it.

stupidhard

I think this discussion has taken a detour.... so here we go...

I agree with B for the most part on the RTA issue. I have the energy RTA but I wouldn't know how a good oem bushing performs since they were torn when I bought the car. anything was an improvement.

I don't think I will try this for the sake that my car is my DD but... is it possible to make a solid bushing perform like a hardrace or the like by simply drilling holes in it to emulate the design of a hardrace bushing?

maybe it would fail quicker.... idk... never the less the OP did discover and disclose that there are damaged linkages in the steering system. now that we have successfully hijacked the conversation, lets reel it back in and see if OP can rite his vessel.

-chris

ocram_88

I report my angles:
Front:
Camber: R:-1°20' L:-1°15'
Caster: R=L= 10'
Toe: R:0°01' L:0°02'

Rear:
Camber: R:-1°40' L:-1°50'
Toe: R:0°12' L:0°14'

I installed energy suspension kit on october 2013. It has almost 6000 miles on it. All bushings seem to be good, exept for these two ( my opinion). I made a video, they are the front control arm bushings. What to you think? I've been told it is a normal amount of "play":

Right:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mcyestwksrj5p56/Destro.mp4

Left:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sim72uykp21dbob/Sinistro.mp4


If you're going to dowload them, you will be able to watch them in HD.

We don't need to enter in the theoty of Ackermann, we just got to know that front wheels turn different angles.
Now i guess:
-They found a bent part of the knuckle but caster and camber are almost perfect. How can a bent knuckles be bent on "the steering arm"? (Hammer time?!)

-If i had this bent knuckles why don't i report different wear of tyres (tyres are 1 year old and 7000 miles)?

-Again, if i had a rigid part bent, why shoul i feel my car loose on straights and on turns...


These makes no sense to me...

I also add some pictures of my car bushings(they are 1 month old, when i had BC coilovers, feeling is the same now with Bilstein):

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

As someone who has had solid Poly RTA bushings on his Civic sedan for MANY years now, with zero problems, zero tear out, and zero squeak, I have to call bullshit from personal experience. Installing them made the rear end incredibly responsive, and while it harshened up the ride a bit, it did not damage a single thing.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

WOOOAHHHH......eh? Fuggedaboudit.

Idk man. You're probably one of the only people on the planet that has "no issues" with the poly RTA bushing.

OP....I would still recommend using rubber bushings....ESPECIALLY in the RTA. This may or may not be your underlying problem. I'm going to venture, however, that a rubber or spherical RTA bushing will alleviate most of your issue.

I didn't watch the videos you posted since I am out in the wilds of Northern IL...where internet service is marginal. But bushings shouldn't have play in them. If there is perceptible play till the bushing becomes effective, then you have a problem.

When did this problem with your steering/response start up? Did you notice it after installing a certain part(s)?

You have a lot of rear toe in. Did you do this to try and aid stability?

Your bent steering arm on your spindle could also play a part in this whole issue...depending on how bent it is....and if its actually bent.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

A bent steering arm would cause the steering to want to "fall" to one side while trying to go straight.

You said you got DC2 spindles. Any chance you got 1 DC spindle and 1 EK4/EM1 spindle?

Sugareeismydog

If the stearing arm is bent it will pull to one side or the other and it will be exaggerated at higher speeds.

ocram_88

Exactly my kuckles/spindles are from an ej9 restyling (abs).
I bought this car at 100000 miles and it was full stock and now it has 117000 miles on it. As i can remember it always had a bit loose steering wheel. One of the first thing i did was changing both outer tie rods because they had play. But for what i remeber i didn't notice almost anything.
Anyway the moment when i felt this very bad feeling is after changing my tyres. I had 195 55 15 Falken Ziex, last summer i've bought Hankook rs2 195 50 15. As i got in the car with new tyres and drove a couple of miles i felt it very bad. So i decided to change tyres and i bought a couple of weeks later 195 50 15 Yokohama neova ad08 because i dind't want any trouble again. But so it didn't. Almost same feeling of hankook...
So i asked a friend of mine to lent me his wheels (195 55 15 michelin pilot exalto on japan racing TF1 15x7 rims).
Car got a bit better but as speed gets high (from 40 miles/h and on), car kept getting loose.
That's it, i really don't know what to think.
I've replaced almost everything.

Hope i've explained good enough