dagle

iTrader: (1)

Hey everyone, I've been experiencing the dreaded hot soak / warm-start problem that seems to be very common for MY2000 V6 Accords. I thought I would document the progression of my troubleshooting and hopefully to the eventual solution.

Cause: Engine bay temperatures rise to the point that gasoline (ethanol-mix and winter-blend especially) boils and vaporizes within the fuel lines.

Symptoms: When hot/warm after previously being driven, car starts and immediately stalls or car starts and idles with misfires for several seconds before catching itself. Cold starts are perfectly fine with no issues.

Check engine light for misfire(s).

Fix/treatment
The TSB says to get the updated fuel pressure regulator and updated ECU which may or may not resolve the issue completely, and may be costly. I couldn't find a definite answer as to if the 01-02 had the updated programming to address the fuel mapping for the updated fuel pressure regulator.

I found that the issue was most persistent with the MY2000 V6 accords, but were not as apparent in other Honda V6's such as the odyssey, TL, prior-model accords, and so forth. After some researching, I find that the design of the MY2000 accord is especially prone to the problem because the fuel system is a returnless fuel system aka a one-way fuel system. Given that and some loose research, I found that people were swapping the fuel systems from other J-series V6 motors but couldn't find any documentation/pictures, so I decided to do it for those who are looking to fix it.

Currently, I have bought the following from a 1999 Honda Odyssey:
Fuel rails
Fuel line connecting the 2 fuel rails
Fuel pressure regulator at the end of the rail
3 feet of vacuum hose (same as old FPR's size, but longer)
3 feet of vacuum hose fatter (same as old FPR's size but longer, this one is the fatter inner diameter hose)


2/16/2014: I did not buy the fuel line with the fuel block. It wasn't included, and I wasn't sure if I needed it so I held off on it. Currently I'm in process of retrofitting the fuel block and fuel line from the returnless system and it appears it works with minor modification, but I will test it when I get the car started. I will upload pictures tomorrow when/if the car runs.

2/17/2014 UPDATE: it's currently running with no issues


New rails from 99 Odyssey (left) Old rails (right)



Here's one of the problems with the design of the fuel rails. I'm not a rocket surgeon, but in my opinion it would have made a lot more sense to run a fitting+hose across these 2 plugged holes instead of having 2 one-way fuel rails.



Tools needed:
Ratchet
Extensions/wobble extension if you have it
8mm socket
10mm socket
12mm socket
adjustable wrench for the fuel block
pliars


Instructions
1) Remove battery to get it out of the way
2) Remove intake and hoses
3) Remove throttle body (I just took off the 4 bolts, unplugged it and let it hang away from the IM)
4) Remove engine covers
5) Remove vacuum lines to the intake manifold, sensors, etc.
6) Remove upper intake manifold, they are 12mm bolts, and (3) 12mm nuts.
7) Find the fuel rails, they are secured to the head with (2) 8mm bolts per side. There are 4 of these bolts. Remove them.

8) At this point, get your 2 sets of fuel rails, and you should be here:


If you're reading this and intend to follow my steps completely, it may serve you well to get the fuel line and fuel block from the Odyssey. I jimmy-rigged this setup because I already disassembled everything when I realized the fuel line's fittings are angled differently. I will proceed with the writeup for using the MY2000 Accord fuel block on a MY1999 Odyssey fuel rail setup.

The fuel rails are basically the same dimensions physically, and appear to have come from the same casts but cut differently. Fit in the new rails the same way as the old ones. You will notice that the fuel feed and fuel block lines will not fit properly. I turned the fitting 180* around, and secured it using a normal 10mm bolt and a washer. You will notice in my picture that the bolt+washer keep the fuel fitting in place, despite the fitting looking like it's unsecured.

This is the Ody rail without the fuel pressure regulator on it. The Ody rail with the fuel pressure regulator fits/operates normally with no modification.


Here is how I settled on the rails.


This did not work, if you want to you can grind the intake manifold and the nut to make it work, but I didn't feel it was necessary, so I took it out.


After securing the rails, I secured the fuel block. Since the new fuel rail location is further, you cannot use the original fuel block location if you use the MY2000 Accord fuel line + fuel block. I attached the fuel block, and made a mounting bracket from various parts I had laying around. If you look closely, the fuel block (square piece) is sitting on top of a bracket made from my S2000's tensioner pulley hardware.



Make sure that your fuel block will clear the intake manifold, if you stay below the height of the fuel rails, you should be okay. Also make sure there's space for your throttle body + plumbing. After mounting the fuel block and old FPR, decide what you want to do. I am currently running 2 FPR's, the original MY2000Accord one is plugged pre-fuelrail so it is letting full fuel pressure through if I recall correctly. The NEW 99OdyFPR has the vacuum lines hooked up to it so it is regulating fuel pressure at the end of the rail. After you sort the air plumbing, re-install IM, TB, intake, turbokit, and you're done.

I left the plumbing for the old FPR just incase I needed it, but the car's running fine so I suspect I won't need to use it. Remember that once you put your IM on, you will no longer be able to reach the vacuum air plumbing for your fuel pressure regulators.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r...ps5fbf3e97.jpg

Hope that helped someone out there!

Grandhustleman86

Nice write up man...pics and your final result are awaited.

Storms

Yeah I had this problem to! Just so you know getting the FPR from an 01-02 will fix it. Half way through the 2000 model year Honda realized they had an issue with this new fuel rail design, they change the fuel rail and FPR on the 2000 and up models when they went to distributor less ignition. They corrected it in the later half of the 2000 model line up, by simply increasing pressure by about 5-10 psi. This is why some 2000 V6 accords don't have the same issue. If you want to be sure it's this issue just buy the FPR from a 01-02 model and replace it, the car runs fine but may run slightly richer! If this fixes your problem then just get a comp from 01-02 at your local wreakers and get keys programed to that computer!

dagle

iTrader: (1)

In my search, people who replaced the FPR and ECU from 01+ didn't find it as a universal fix and there were cases where hot soak problems would reoccur. Additionally, ECU+FPR costs more than I spent (50$ + 15$ for vac lines) on the entire project. Though I would honestly have preferred simply swapping the FPR + ECU and be done with it, I'm confident my fix will resolve issues indefinitely.

dagle

iTrader: (1)

Tested it over the past couple of days taking the car to the local grocery store, etc. driving around, errands, picking up coffee and the issue appears to be resolved. I've driven a total of 50 miles in the city with no issues.

Hope that helps for anyone who was looking to do the same fix. So if you have the chance to get a similar return-style fuel rail, it's a very good fix for cheap. I spent <75$ total

slixxracing

I know it's a couple months old, but nice write up dagle.. I was having the same issue on my 00 v6 accord and I did the same thing. Asked a few mechanic and no one knew. So after digging up the net, I found the same solution you found. So I went to a local salvage yard and grabbed the entire fuel railing systems (all nuts, bolts, fuel lines, FPR. everything from firewall to firewall) from a 98-99 (if I remember correctly) Acura CL and have not had any issue's since. Best $15 i've ever spent.

MD2014

Starts stumbles stalls dies hot

I've worked on Honda's for almost 30 years. Had 2000 Accord in the shop last week, with this issue. TSB says to replace the PCM and fuel regulator or this problem car had 85,000 miles on it no change occurred still stumbled and died. Other posts I read said to replace the fuel rails and the injectors. The true fix is to remove the carbon build up in the plentium and intake runners and also on the valve stems. I've tried top engine cleaner with some success but removing these parts and cleaning them off the car is the best procedure.

lothian

Soooo... you claim three decades of experience maintaining Hondas... and in all those years your experience with the "heat soak" issue is limited to one car presenting symptoms of that phenomenon... from which you base your summary opinion of the cause..?

That's some hubris there, amigo.

In my opinion, your opinion is just one more opinion among the many many opinions as to the cause and remedy of this confounded condition, which thus far (from my research) include the following:
- ethanol fuel vaporization in fuel line;
- generally poor-quality fuel;
- fuel pressure regulator too small (Honda TSB 00-024);
- returnless fuel rails;
- blown radiator fan fuse;
- air trapped in coolant system;
- bad coolant temperature sensor;
- overly tight I/E valves;
- EGR issue;
- bad plugs and/or ignition coils;
- main fuel relay solder joints...

and on and on and on.

MAD_MIKE

Meh, he made one post(total) two years ago and has not logged on since.
Why did I just read that in Samuel L Jackson's voice?

Storms

Well the accord now has 315,000km on it and the FPR replacement is still working like a champ! sad to see the old girl go but the tranny was giving up the ghost. The new owner has replaced transmission and has zero problems with the fuel system. My accord didn't start acting up until they started selling ethanol blended fuels here in Canada.

lothian

see those plugs at the end of both rails? i wonder what the result would be if one tapped threaded holes through the plug on both rails and connected a length of fuel line between them. wouldn't this "mod" effectively transform the Accord original and problematic "returnless" fuel rails into "return"-type? alas, simply replacing the rails with those from a '00 odyssey renters my preponderance moot.

Silva Bullit DC4

My apologies for digging up an old thread, but would love to know a reponse from this, as well.

Snoop.

lothian

I'll never know. I replaced the fuel rails with a set salvaged from a 2000 Odyssey. After doing the deed, the "heat soak" problem hasn't recurred, along with the "hard start condition" it caused and the misfire codes that result. I document the job here: https://tinyurl.com/y7z72lgw

I completely endorse this method as a viable solution to the "hard start condition" where "heat soak" is determined to be the cause. In my experience, and that of the OP--it works.

poorman212

Going for the "wild side" . Don't get me wrong an I know these cars have/had issues but as a simple "try" that doesn't cost much and could "some what" be called regular maint repairs. Get an OE t-stat and see what you have from there. IMHO, the real "tell" is going to be in the summer when we get away from "winter blend" gas.....if we are not there already, can't remember when the gov tells us we have to switch

zikada

I have a 2002 Honda Accord that has this exact same problem. I am actually willing to see if my mechanic is willing to give this try a fix because I am at a loss. I have been dealing with it for about 3 years now and exactly like everyone else says, it runs fine in the summer (I'm in the North East) and has a warm start issue during the colder months.

I read in some of the posts earlier that the 2001 and 2002 somehow shouldn't have this problem but my 02 most definitely has this problem to the T.

Is there anything I should worry about trying to attempt this fix on my 2002?

lothian

a'hem... exactly nobody says that. Either you misunderstand the nature of this phenomenon, or you just typed the wrong thing in your post.
The hard start condition is a symptom of the "heat soak" condition that typically manifests in seasons opposite those you mention. This fact is particularly well documented, even within the TSB referenced in the title of this thread!

Hard starts in cold environments could be due to any number of factors, some of which might overlap (coincidentally) with those characteristic of the "heat soak" condition. Same is true for idle problems that appear only in cold environments. You, or a mechanic, should troubleshoot from that vantage.

MAD_MIKE

Nope.
Return style needs a line going back to the fuel tank.

lothian

Perzactly. I never bothered with the experiment. I opted for prudence and retro'd in a set of '00 Ody return-style rails. I document the job here: https://tinyurl.com/y7z72lgw

SDBoyscout

I guess I am the latest victim to be joining this dreaded mysterious hard start issue for 2000 V6 Accord owners. Here it goes guys. I am a proud original owner of a white 2000 V6 coupe in auto with 197k who has enjoyed a trouble free Accord in Socal. It all started back about a month ago when I started noticing the dreaded hard start issue and thought nothing of it other than it maybe time for a major tune up. I have always done all my scheduled maintenance on time including having the automatic transmission custom rebuilt with Trans Lab's updated valve body and separator plates enlargement process with brand new complete sets of transmission Solenoids being installed. Needless to say, she runs to this day like butter with no issue. I am some what perplexed and disgusted to find out there is no proven fix or a definitive cause which is leading to the hard start issue on our J series accord. I have already spent time doing all the obvious suspected component checks like cleaning of the IACV, TPS, MAP,EGR, ECT input and values.
I spent a good day checking and bench testing all of the Key PGM-FI/ECU/CPU fuel computer input components on and off the car and they are all in working condition and within all the OHMs and reference voltage spec. I also hooked up a fuel gauge in order to rule out and fuel pressure delivery issue and the results were NONE. The Fuel pump I replaced just less than a years ago with a OEM DENSO unit and the fuel pressure numbers are right on at prime and under load.
As I have already mentioned my car runs like butter other than this hard start issue.

I don't have any DTC on the dash and it just passed the California SMOG just the other day, So what am I missing???
I can't believe none of the Honda community forums have an answer to this issue. I even performed a injector leak down test and all 6 injectors are within 2-4% of each other so I know for sure this has nothing to do with the fuel delivery system like Honda is guessing with their bull **** TSB they issued the changing out the ECU along with the FPR.

I am now seriously considering tracking down a later model fuel computer from another Accord to see if the issue is in fact the computer not being able to process the Fuel ratio when the car is heat soaked even though I have never heard of this being a factor in all the years of being a gear head.

If you guys have or know any latest info/cure/cause please let me know other wise I have checked read all the other thread and don't need YOU to repeat anything I have already read and tried on the car.
Thank you.
P.S.

Just performed a Valve lash job while the car was stone cold and returned from doing a hot lap on the local freeway and I can rule out improper valve clearance as a possible cause of the hard start as the cause. Stay tuned!!!

lothian

Bummer your first post wasn't a detailed accounting of your AT rebuild using Trans Lab nummies. But that can be your new year's resolution. Anywho... a peculiarity of the "hard start condition" is unceremonious onset preceded by years of perfectly normal engine performance (i.e., "runs like butter"). Then, one hot day, after you return to your car from a short visit into the Mission Valley Hooters, the car gacks at start up and stalls. Welcome to this hateful club.

Definitive...? No. But the overwhelming consensus concerning the cause is pretty thoroughly described... in this forum and others, in a trade publication, and by Honda proper. There are those who bandy the argument this heat soak/hard start condition business is a comparatively rare and geographically isolated performance problem affecting a small population of Honda owners. Annnnnd... they're pretty much correct. Nonetheless, it's a genuine issue affecting the early '00 J-series engine used in both Accords and Acuras. Suffice it to say, Honda proper was quite aware of the phenomenon.

High ambient temperature must exist as a precursor to heat soak. The timing of your post is interesting in this regard--as I write this response, the right half of the U.S. is experiencing a sustained cold-snap where conditions are unfavorable for the onset of the heat soak (which is just one cause of a hard start condition--note the differential phrasing here). But this is good information. If air temps in SoCal were, say, lower than 80F at the time your experience, then you are correct to eliminate other hard start condition inducing causes, starting with checking for a fuel pressure delivery issue, which you apparently did. However, you do not mention t'shooting the fuel. Fill your Accord's tank with ethanol-free fuel and evaluate under typical heat-soak favorable driving conditions. This is an expensive and (possibly) inconvenient test, but it lessens the likelihood of one specific thing being the source of the problem. Be empirical here.

Another peculiarity of the hard start condition: no codes at first. However, the CEL typically lights (with P0300, P030x --random misfire) if one insists of driving the car in the midst of the hard start condition, rather than waiting for the engine to cool before attempting to move.

Sorry you wasted your time doing that risk-laden red herring. The valve adjustment thing is typically a last-resort effort in futility. Do it wrong--which is crazy likely for those inexperienced with such things--and the outcome will not be pleasant. Btw, Honda generally recommends against cursory valve adjustments. (Honda suggests "checking valve clearance" as potential last-resort solution to chronic random misfire issues.) It seems insofar as J-series heads are concerned, Honda made 'em maintenance free. The wry consensus among Honda techs: the most common reason to do a valve adjustment job is to undo a prior valve adjustment job.

Au contraire, there amigo. A very well documented and vetted "solution" is mentioned in this very thread, and appears within the other half-dozen forums dedicated to all things Honda: swap the native fuel rails with those from a '00 Odyssey.

Bleh. I humbly propose you replace the fuel rails instead of swapping the PCM (a.k.a, "ECU"). But if your heart is set on that ECU idea, consider installing the "black dot" FPR Honda recommends (new or used; see OEM p/n below) before you swap the ECU. I know, I know... Honda sensibly recommends replacing both at the same time for reasons that should be obvious. Replacing the FPR alone is much less expensive parts-wise and a way easier job. A few folks have posted positive results after replacing just the FPR--but I'm skeptical. If afterwards you still experience a hard start condition--or discover a completely new problem (very likely)--you can finish the job by replacing the ECU. Just be aware that 1) swapping used ECU's between Accords isn't as straightforward as it seems (iow, PITA); and, 2) the job requires use of a Honda Scan Tool, along with all of your Accord keys. I doubt the hassle--and expense--of replacing just the ECU will have any effect. In fact, there's no guarantee of remedy after doing Honda's recommended updated FPR/PCM swap! Bogus.

Correct. No proven fix. However, among the variety of prospective "fixes" for this problem, swapping the fuel rails appears to be particularly effective simply because it most directly addresses the root cause of the problem. Honda engineers bestowed their magisterial pronouncement of the solution in the form of, borrowing your phrase, "their bullshit TSB"--which, turns out, was both hurty expensive and generally ineffective (though anecdotes of amelioration exist). So if you want to pursue this "official" solution, the exhibit below from Honda provides support for that effort. For the purposes of closure, it's bares mentioning that Honda engineers did exorcise the gremlin in the subsequent engine with a redesigned FPR and complementary value-tweaks within the ECU, among other engine changes--which they accomplished with returnless rails.




...right'o. Vexation circumstances aside, welcome to the conversation. Make certain to subscribe to this thread to receive notification when comments are added.

Dr S

Dreaded same symptoms. Zero issue when engine cold. Zero issues when engine hot, but restart in 10 mimutes. Zero issues in cold weather (25 degrees or less). But go into grocery store for 30-40 minutes? I have to wait for whatever to obviously cool. Good thing I'm martied, as no date would put up with this!

holmesnmanny

has anyone tried wrapping the fuel rail in exhaust wrap ?

or fabricating some kind of heat shield ?

lothian

Among the various Honda-eccentric forums a few folks claim they've wrapped the fuel rails to no avail. A mechanic gave it a shot with similar result; an accounting of his effort is published in a trade magazine I cite within a threat I started here: https://tinyurl.com/y7z72lgw.

Wrapping the fuel rails doesn't work (same for this notion of a heat shield). Firstly, clearance around the rails is tight; therefore, it's not possible to apply insulation material efficaciously. Most significantly, zero material exists with any practical application for this issue that resists thermal conductivity over time. Remember: this problem is called "heat soak" for a reason. Ponder the meaning of that for a moment; now extrapolate.