D-Rob

Here's a buddy of mine's car. He's been running nitrous on his stock-internal K20A2 for a couple years now, and this is the most recent power level.



Stock block K20A2
K20Z1 cams
SuperTech valve springs/retainers
PLM header
IMW-Spec 3.5" intake
Ported RBC
Hybrid Racing 74mm throttle body
3" exhaust
ID1000's
Custom direct port nitrous, .032 nitrous jets

Tuned by Me! with Hondata K-Pro on E85

Here's a video from when it made just a little less power.

He's ditching the nitrous stuff now for an HX52.

- Derek

MugenSpeclNY

I forget if this was covered already, but Tyler do you plan on using a dedicated fuel system with the VP on a wet system with pump gas in the normal gas tank? Or running a dry with ecu controlled fuel running vp all time? Or maybe dedicated fuel system T'd in stock lines on a dry shot?

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Because I just purchased a 9 seccond shell, I decided to just run the full time race gas scenario. I will keep it a little lighter and simpler that way for a full race effort. Yes, the car will drive street miles for sure; though it will not be getting the full nitrous capability with affordable fuel. I will run it to it's limits on good street gas with the elaborate water injection setup that is port injected and monitored very closely with multiple failsafes. This was the goal from the start to see what the practical limits were for common fuel with water injection with a precisely controlable (REVO) nitrous/fuel delivery system.
At the track, I can easily drain and purge street gas and really light it up when the slicks can be used. Hardly a street tire in the world can hook up a 450hp DelSol and not cause suspension hop and other variables. So the street gas and water will be fun and affordable; but top quality fuel at the track will be mandatory as well as retuning for the 450hp nitrous system uasage. That's what Trever @ Wizards of Nitrous says this system is capable of. And, the landmark goal that I am shooting for is tripling the HP of this motor without a turbo.
Thank you so much for your interest, good stuff on the way with Larry's writup on the VTEC head.

MugenSpeclNY

Ahhh ok I see, so a wet kit both ways with vp for the big shot at the track and then drain tank for pump with dpi meth for smaller shot on the street. Gotcha thanks man! Excited for this head write up

Btw shell looks real nice any reason for choosing the del sol? Deal on the shell/what it had as far as suspension(I know you said the suspension was to your liking was that the main reason) or just prefer the looks?

Also wanted to get your input on bottle temp/psi... What methods will you be using to control bottle psi? Not throwing the torch on it I bet hahaha :p.... Electric bottle heaters? Thermostat or pressure switch? Interested in what you have planned for this as bottle pressure and keeping it stable is a big factor with safety and reliability with nitrous.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

I have really fallen for the DelsSol over the last couple years. I think with the right body kits, these are the best looking Hondas out there. JMO of course.
The suspension is all urathane with Blox drag Struts and a certified cage made VERY well. I have to post up some pics to see the attention to detail. It's a previous Cali car that hasn't been outside for 15 years i.e. no rust. It has been 9.89s this year on 25" slicks before it was retired. This removes alot of trial and error, setting up the car which saves money. It was using a Full Race traction bar set up also.
Ohh yeah, the deal was hard to beat also. I believe the cage and struts alone would have cost what I paid fot it. Also, I didn't have to hack up my other DelSol to keep this going forward; which I love driving every day (B20B swap).

MugenSpeclNY

nice seems we both have a thing for DD'ing white on white coupes(b18c)
[IMG][/IMG]


any input of the method going to be used for nitrous bottle temp/pressure control?

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

The nitrous temp/pressure control is an exclusive Wizards of Nitrous algorythm (mathematical function in programming) in their Max Extreme Nitrous controller. The option to install an accurate nitrous pressure transducer (@ the bottle) combined with the shortest path needed to the REVO valve; enables the computer to make real time calculations of bottle contents. This is adjustable for any size bottle, and has some real advantages.
1st. Many if not every other NOS manufacturer employs some kind of bottle heater or low bottle swap out procedure to ensure adequate nitrous flow durring activation. This WON system is not dependent on bottle pressure as a function of delivery (per say).

2nd. The precision bottle transducer is constantly being communicated with and re assing the contents of the bottle through the known delivery of N2O. Like a gas miles per gallon meter in your newer cars, this system knows when the bottle is 1/2 full or 1/4 etc..

3rd. The very best function of this system is the way that the REVO (Rotary Electronic Variable Orifice) valves can be throtled by the Max Extreme controller. If the bottle is in a declining pressure phase due to mass delivery, the pressure transducer signal is used to RECALCULATE the rate of delivery at the REVO, causing it to open wider and wider (while exactly administering N2O) until the bottles contents are fully used.

This is one of a dozzen reasons I am going with the WON Max Extreme full system.
Let me scare you a bit, IF you can even get Trevor to build you a system like this (it took me over two months of contact and effort), you will still have to come up with $3,800. American dollars to get it. This is the most complete system with every sensor and option. That's everything, every fitting, bottle, line, sensor, valve, computer etc.. This is the first system he has shipped to the US for the Honda motor. I have alot of data to gather for him also on the WON forum when this gets up and going. I would really reccomend anyone interested in nitrous systems to look at His website, not all of his stuff is this exspensive and the knowledge will surpass any that you can find on other manufacturers sites.
http://www.noswizard.com/

MugenSpeclNY

What is your view in the these nano set-ups, from what I have read they seem like the hott ticket as far as nitrous bottle pressure control. Supposidly it keeps bottle pressure very consistent and I have heard other good reviews.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Here is the scoop on NANO systems.
Over a decade ago, Trevor Langfield of WON invented the first known NANO system that compensated for bottle pressure changes. Because Nitrogen is used (non flamible) it does not add any significant danger or mixture disruption when mixed and has a practical high stable pressure to regulate the nitrous supply.
This system does work well but has some drawbacks. Nitrogen, is not readily available at the track or otherwise without a gas source supplier. Here is a brief discussion on the topic I had with Trevor some time ago:


Another question for your consideration. Do you suppose that a higher than nitrous head pressure operating system is benificial?



## There are some advantages but it makes the system very complex.








Can another gas be used to regulate a higher system potential?



## yes and we call such systems nitrogen push system or nitrogen booster systems. If you look in the tech/advanced section of my forum there is a VERY WELL READ thread on the matter.








I am suggesting that as an orifice limits on flow are pressure related (CV) and can show increased performance if pressure is increased. With the additional system head pressure on the nitrous bottle (perhaps 100-300psi) I don't know the magic number; you could altogether eliminate any phase change in components under this pressure in the entire delivery system, right?



## Correct but there's more to it than just those factors.








This is a very simple precept, higher pressure means stable liquid flow. The bottles are certainly rated for higher pressure service, why not do it this way?



## We have done that (I was the first to do so, some 25 years ago and it gave my customers an unbeatable edge) but since then we've achieved a much greater understanding of nitrous and nitrogen boosting, so now it's only needed/beneficial when ALL other avenues to achieve optimum performance have been exploited, as the others are far simpler and generally better to apply. Consequently we seldom sell such systems nowadays, as very few people can utilise anywhere near the full potential of what our systems can achieve without it.

__________________________________________________ ____________________

So the above conversation will certainly have you interested in checking out their (WON) site to learn much more.
What I can say is, it's very exspensive, hard to fill, and unless something has changed recently; you must empty each nitrogen bottle to change a nitrous bottle as no valves are supplied with these systems. You could always add a valve though. Here is some more conversation on the topic between me and Trevor;



I had understood that NANO systems were being used for decades,



## they've only been in existence about 10 to 15 years, as I remember laughing when they started and claimed to be offering something new. LOL








only since I havn't used them I assumed that the regulated NANO pressure (which is fixed I understand) was set to ideal nitrous pressure rate. I was asking if higher than normal settings were benificial to reduce phase change.



## ANY pressure above the pressure at a given ambient (or artificially elevated) temperature will stabilise the 'state' of the nitrous in the bottle but there are questions as to what effect it has on the delivery state.







Also, what are the other factors you can describe that are related to NANO pressurization. Not that I wish to apply them since you have designed these REVO systems to be optimal as you have stated without their use; just inquisitive if you have the time.



## When I first conceived of this idea I imagined that the nitrogen would sit in a separate gas pocket above the liquid nitrous but I now know that's not the case, as it MIXES with both the nitrous liquid and gas elements. The best way to think about it is to consider a coke bottle that uses CO2 in place of nitrogen and coke instead of nitrous.



The consequences are that some of the nitrous is displaced by nitrogen (in the flow to the solenoid) and although this can be a good thing at HIGH power levels, it's not so desirable at lower levels. There are also claims that the nitrogen (or whatever other pressurising media is used) may not be even distributed throughout the liquid nitrous but I doubt that's the case.



The main drawbacks to using these techniques are; cost, weight, complexity AND you can't easily 'top up' a bottle that has such a system added, so you MUST run it down to completely empty or waste it off, before refilling. Although that may not be a problem to some, it's a pain in the *** to others.

__________________________________________________ ____________________

I hope this was helpful to you and gets you interested in more research. This topic of high powered nitrous systems IS the way to future unlimited HP (mechanical limits not being overlooked of course)

K20EF8Dx

Let me know when you produce these. I was going to take some bar stock and put it on a lath to make these, but if your doing a production run then i will just purchase them.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Been a while, but still learning and moving forward.
The learning part is trusting experience that has gone before me. The teacher, well most know of Him and His accomplishments. Larry Widmer has been walking me down the path to reliable performance with this build. He and His employees at Endyn are the real deal. Great guys.
That being said, this build is in great hands.
So Larry has put together an artical on this cylinder head to share with You guys that may be helpful for those going for big nitrous use. The artical is on a data stick and too long to just put up here all at once so I will break it up and post some up now to get any discussion going.

I never thought that I would have the oportunity to have this access to one of racings great innovators and machinists.


Everybody likes a good head shot so here it goes. You may or may not notice something unusual about it, but there is a difference that is being employed for a result in expelling exhaust gasses. Sort of like half a GSR head and half a B16. The compression that the intake side (GSR half) will produce when exhausting the cylinder contents will start a wave in the direction of the exhaust valves that gets stronger when the piston reaches TDC and effectivly shoves the gasses over and out.
This is theoretical and experimental combustion chamber design straight from Endyn for this build. On the compression stroke it will also contribute to a rolling ball of combustion that will sweep through the chamber and move the heat around rather than ignite and expand.
Larry has found tremendous advantages in different combustion chamber shapes. He has even employed piston reshaping to achieve simple and effective results (Rollerwave pistons) in 4 valve heads like the Honda.

Well there is a good starting point for discussion. There is ALOT to this head that remains to be seen and no single point of performance was ignored in it's making.

GoldLudeRay

very nice... has he stated what the power band will be like off the shot on this head work?

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Larry has made this head to flow sweet to 9200. I really don't plan on running it into that rpm range on purpose as the nitrous system will compensate for what N/A has to do to make power.

Maybe I mis understood You a bit, and think You meant what will the N/A power be. I wil have Endyn dyno the combination when the motor is fully built with some numbers to share then.

Here is some of the foundation work that sets Larrys work apart from most. He just doesn't leave well enough alone. Honda valve guides are true preformers in their own right. So why mess with the guides?
Perfection.

Larry has chosen a matirial that is far better for this task and redesigned them to have more benefits. First, of all their his own creation. He will be the first to tell You that Your head won't last (seats/seal) without perfect guides; and oil has no place in a combustion chamber with nitrous. Each guide is professionally installed at the correct hight and line center for every valve. Then each guide is reamed to the exact clearance for each valve. This is the foundation of a rock solid head.
So why not make the foundation a bit bigger? Many will remove the valve guide protrusion into the ports to gain a few CFMs on top. I have looked into this modification and thought that it had it's merrits. Some believed that one could avoid valve guide pinching with high nitrous use on the exhaust side. But that remove considerable strength that the guides provide. It is very critical to keep the valve centered and return to the same seat every time to remove heat, save the seat life, promote flow and extend the rpm range because these B series valvetrains will try to push a valve around at high RPMs and guides are the only thing stoping it.
So Larry actualy increases the valve guide length, more foundation. At the same time, He provides an AERO contour to the guide where it enters the port which greatly increases flow without loosing strength.
There is a complicated procedure for installing these that requires precise tolerances. Top quality Viton seals on top (correctly installed) keep oil where it belongs, out. Without the very best from inside out, your only as strong as the weakest link.
Installing the valve guide seals is straight forward with the correct tools. I have read many times on HT about people trying to get old stuck ones off and new ones on without marring the crap out of them. Seals will last and last if installed correctly. The guys who havn't (installed them correctly) can tell you what their results were.

13173

Does he use an optical cylinder to back up his theories and research for how this new combustion chamber should work?

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Dunknow?
What I can tell You:
GSR head=dual quench pads for central charged fuel ball under plug. Two squish zones promoting central combustion.
B16 head=low speed cam variants between the two intake valves. I.E.-one valve opens sooner and higher than the other promoting a swirl combustion cylinder filling. It's easy to see that Honda has played around with these tactics for a long while, as has Endyn.

High pressure gasses and complex surface manipulation (piston crowns/head chambers) work together to perform different goals (output/efficientcy). These are not theories today, they are carefully studied dynamic tweeks for specific motor configurations.
Larrys' Roller Wave pistons change the shape of the crown to produce proven results and burn patterns atop race run pistons. The power is measured on the dyno not in a discussion. Not many people have the desire, itellect or ability to do this kind of research. I will post up dyno results for the N/A set up when available.

13173

If they were so awesome I think I would see a lot more Endyn stickers on drag cars these days. Don't get me wrong, back years ago it seems I used to see a lot of the Endyn stickers and here of people using Endyn Rollerwaves or an Endyn worked head. Now the fastest FWD cars on the planet use RLZ, Mission Critical, 4 Piston, etc heads and do not use Endyn Rollerwaves. Just my observation on this though, and I am a nobody amongst the racers or in the FWD drag community.

I guess it is good to see you throwing all this science and info in here as well as pictures. Leaking all of your secrets to a fast nitrous FWD. I guess you might be right "Not many people have the desire, itellect or ability to do this kind of research." I just go with what I know makes a lot of power and take a much simpler approach to it. Since I am not being funded for my research, do not have sponsors, and am not wanting to spend a boat load of $$$$ to make my Honda that fast or scientific. Maybe you will be out there with Bisi setting the bar that high everyone else has to play catch up.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

I can only hope and apply all my interest into this nitrous build that it may establish a safe criteria and parameters for cookie cutter builds to come. Man I have got alot of money invested with no real clear end (especially if I go dog box) but I get off on the science and pushing the bar.
I agree, the fastest guys 1200hp^ drag elites are going different ways with heads and have turbo science for their builds down to an art.
My RPMs, cam lift specs and valve train components are very standard; just blueprinted and built with the best equipment and hands that I can find. Sure, I could have went to a couple different shops, but they would only offer me what they know (turbo, N/A) . I was invited and able to spend hours with Larry to discuss this project and was blown away with His hospitality and tour.
What I can tell You about Endyn is that work is climbing the walls and He runs 7 days a week. He had a Princes motor from the middle east on the dyno, Nissan heads by the pallet from an Australian road race team, stuff going out all over the world. This shop is in it's own groove with custom one offs everywhere. The head shops You listed are competitive and popular with the SCENE in motion and fill a great void that would be otherwise hungry and starved for quantity. I do not take one little bit of credit away from their work or efforts in the feild. They are great shops. I am very blessed to have this opportunity with Larry. I feel like a student in His company and draw in all I can.


I love discussing the edgy details of this build and bring everyone interested in up very close. There are no secrets, though the platform may be Honda; this colaboration with Endyn and Me is meant for all to examine that are considering large nitrous systems like this. Thank you for You interest and input.
PS, I know I told You before but I love Your avitar!

welfarepc

That intake divider is way too sharp. Larry should know that.




Kidding..... lols.



I am actually reading your replys, btw. Keep it coming.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Just some more foundational mods to the head to make it reliable and leak free.
You see, many people doing this LS/VTEC head swap mod have found out that oil leaks spring up on the front of the block alot. Reason being that return oil passages are not alligned well at all. In fact, as measured with actual new gaskets with the dowel pins holding the gaskets there is less than .030" of sealing area on the front return passage. Some guys get lucky and it doesn't leak, some guys don't. Whatever gasket you choose (B20/B16) there are compromises with the return passages and other small transfer ports like the water and the actual bore not being correct. These are real issues that often get ignored or many aren't aware of. You've read it before, just use the GE gasket, so you do and they have already cut the bore out etc. 81mm to 84+ mm mods to the B16 gaskets are commonplace and exspensive. A simple B20 gasket will match the block exactly and bore too. All return passages and water ports also. So, if the head is already getting the full treatment in the machine shop, why not get the ports modified to better match the oil returns. The bore is not a match either for this swap. There is appx. .060 of cylinder head overhang out into the bore. This is Frankenstien for sure. Yeah, it works, but not a beatiful thing.
The following picture is a popular guide to illustrate this problem. Look, as many of You that take their advice (GE) on this topic, I feel it is the WRONG way to go. There is no reason to modify a B16 head gasket to obtain marginal results in oil return sealing, NONE. Laser cutting bores and what not, and those rivit rings that hold the hole stack together get in the way too.

When my head was in the shop, I discussed with Larry what my opinions were on the mismatched ports. He was very responsive to my request and offered no resistance to the mods. Everything on the head was modified to match the B20 deck except the dowel pins. The head was matched to my bores exactly with a CNC flycut (84.5mm). This operation will unshroud the valves and allow greater flow potential from the head. It is very important to unshroud valves for cone formation around the valve, and these big bore B20s allow for greater potential then the B16 (81mm) can offer. Remember to take advantage of this when talking to your head shop.
A bit of welding is required on the head to get the proper shapes and landing areas to match for machining, but that is what head shops do, so ask them if they don't offer. Why screw a plug into the head deck to block the B16 VTEC oil passage? Just weld it shut. No leaks, no stress from a tapered plug being wedged into the head.
Making the B16 head into a B20 is not hard or exspensive and well worth the effort to make things seal right. Now a simple and inexspensive B20 head gasket can be used. All of the brass rivits that hold the head gasket stack together do not get pinched anymore between the head and block. These are simple mods that make a real difference in the final product.
The following pictures are from Endyns shop and illustrate the welding and reshaping of the return ports. Also note the cylinder bore has been flycut to 84.5mm.

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Been a while, but some back and forth with Larry on head details is mostly proprietary and not a part of this discussion. I don't have any reservations about it, but some stuff is not on the table.
The valve job is trade secret stuff, not that others don't use similar techniques; just actual data like seat widths, throat angles, back cuts, multi angle specs are secret. Sorry, even the process for installing the powdered metal valve seats for perfect performance can't be discussed. I have some pictures of the seats before and after but eye candy is all it is. Just be certain not to assume something wasn't thought through, because every detail was crafted to fit this build for longevity and performance.

On another topic is the block. I have got some controvesial stuff to say and many may have a different opinion on the matter.
I spent a long while researching the best sleeve options for this build. I read through hours of threads on different sites and HT for all sorts of feedback and input. I spoke with a few mechanics that sleeve stuff and thought I had it figured out. I was wrong.
I decided to go with Golden Eagle sleeves at first. Yeah, I thought I was going with a proven system, but things are more complicated than they appear. I had a block sleeved by GE and had a complicated experience (that's what I'll say on the matter). By the time I got it back I had just gotten into contact with Larry (Endyn) about this build to get the head work done. Moving forward several months, I bring all this stuff to Larry's shop for assembly and dyno time to find the block was not usable. The piston to wall maching GE performed was WAY off the build sheet. Just forget about it off. When You are measuring with instruments that are accurate to .00001 in a climate controled room and acclimated parts, the tools don't lie.
Also, Larry has had ALOT of issues with GE sleeves in the past (8+ years ago) when sleeves were sinking and they refused to warranty their product. One motor He recalls didn't get off the dyno without leaking water into the oil. This is not a discussion to blast GE products, only to inform others that are researching it for themselves. I asked Him what sleeve system He reguarded as the best available and we decided to go Darton MID.
After measuring piston to wall specs, the GE step deck was off a bit too. OK enough for a street build in the future I suppose, but not this huge nitrous effort. I can say alot more but I will see if discussion remains positive and moves forward.
I believe that one should trust their machinist without question when they come in the caliber of Larry's sort. Yes, there are many great machinist that use GE stuff, but Larry aint one of em. He has His reasons, lost lots of money and time and the tools to back up His findings. I wish I had known all this before I spent the $1500. on the GE sleeves.

GoldLudeRay

interesting good stuff man

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Thank you.
I was hoping to have more discussion with fellow nitrous users still. It has just sorta been moving along slowly with the build on this end. I have really enjoyed talking with everyone and putting some different perspective to the set ups we're all used to seeing.
There are some very fast cars that only use 150hp shots!

I realize that this buid is not the norm, especially with the costs and stuff. I could have built two turbo cars in the 10s with stock drivlines. I built alot of muscle cars in the past and always wanted to do a big nitrous system. I never got around to it.
I am very intrigued with edgy tech and new set ups; that is why I am going soo deep on this build.

Thanks everyone for Your interest and reading through. Iv'e seen the views are over 20K so i'll just keep it going as I have, slowly along. Unless there is a relevant topic to discuss?

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Like anything else you buy used, one buys it at their own risk. I purchased this head on eBay and went to go get in in St Louis from the seller. I asked alot of questions first and got the responses I was looking for, so I made the trip. When I got there I wanted to check as much of the head over as I could without tearing the whole thing down or frustrating the guy (we were at his shop) and He seemed patient which helped too.

As it turned out, the head was completly virgin as I wanted, never ported, never milled and origonal valvetrain. I even recieved a great pair of CTR cams with the package. The cams are worth more than what I paid for the head, so I wondered a bit but got it anyway.

When I tore the whole head down I found a problem with the cam journals. The front ones that support the timing gears were deeply scratched as many are that do not get the correct belt tension and lubrication. Dang......I thought the head was junk, but at least I had the cams, powder coated valve cove (new) and an intake also. It looked like I was going to need a new head for this build.

I drove down to Endyn's and brought it with me when we discussed the project and any interest He might have in helping me. He looked the head over and decided it could be returned to service with a cam line bore.

I thought it was not possible to line bore the cams without moving the centerline off to far for the seals to be reliable. Larry assured me it was and showed me a fixture He designed (tooling) for the task. He also said it was a very messy operation to preform and the honing oil stinks too. Leaning my head a bit into the settled tank to smell I would have to agree that splashing oil would stink bad. I left the head with Larry, confident that He knew what was viable and let Him go at it. After the line hone was finished, He measured everything in the centerline area for the cams and it still fell into spec (the very edge of spec) for service and had been succesfully repaired. Alot of work goes into this than ramming a honing bar through the caps. The caps must all be milled a fraction at the parting line to reduce the diameter of the bore and than the boring bar must be manually operated. He tells me that you have to get a real feel for the operation or things can go wrong.
Here is a few pictures of Josh going through the line hone operation for this head.
I really wish we had gotten a great before shot of the front two cam saddles, but we didn't. They were pretty fubar if you asked me. The after shots speak for themselves.
Yet another reason to find the best machinist you can afford and trust His judgment 100%.
With as many blocks and heads in His shop with what looks like fatal (true junk metal) status written all over them; Larry's welding guy and perfect shop conditions allow much if not all of them to return to extreme levels preformance. Fist sized holes in blocks, heads with half a combustion chamber back in business. The craft and dedication really impressed me and opened my eyes to what seems impossible, Endyn makes possible.

DDTECH

Made alittle progress

Tyler Dirden

iTrader: (3)

Hey DDTECH, what power level are you coming out on?
I would offer this one bit of advice on the fogger jets; RUN A FILTER ON BOTH FUEL AND NOS solenoids.
When you split up a 100hp shot with 4 jets (like .020" ID) on the nos side, ANY little spec of whatever will wreak havock with the tune or worse.

Happy for your progress.