bernie f

Since this engine hasn't run for a long time, how long does CO2 stay in the radiator fluid?
The engine did get a head gasket about 30K mi ago by the previous owner.

bernie f

My Haynes says 135 minimum compression

TomCat39

Oh right..... Talk about a brain fart. It hasn't been running.....

Well looks like a head pull for visual inspection then.

And yeah I knew 110 was below bare minimum.

bernie f

The history of this car as I understand it is that it had over heating problems around 130K mi and had a lot of parts thrown at it by a shop in D.C. Water pump, radiator, thermostat ,belts. A local guy bought it and put a new head gasket on it. I bought it, drove it 30K and it stopped running. I'm a little confused that the car would just stop running one day. If I pull the head, I can have it checked by a shop for cracks and warp.

TomCat39

Yeah, I'd suggest doing a leak down test prior to pulling the head, it might give you an insight on whether it's top end or bottom end.

Without the leak down test, if you pull the head and don't find anything obvious, it will be much more difficult to know if it's piston rings.

With the leak down showing where the air is mainly escaping and then pulling the head you should have a much better idea of what is wrong.

As for why it would just quit is that if it did warp in the overheat the new head gasket might seal it up but only for a short while. Eventually the warp would win and the gasket gives way causing the compression to drop suddenly.

magichands

WOOA! did i miss something here?
Was valve timing ever verified 100 percent? did you remove the upper timing belt cover and bring cyl #1 to TDC on compression? are cam and crank timing marks correct at this point? those compression numbers are one indication of a timing belt that has jumped a few teeth. these engines will run with one "dead" cyl (110psi) even with the other low #s, i would expect it to barely run or sorta start if it was just a blown head gasket.

TomCat39

How so, jumping a few teeth would affect all 4 cylinders not just one. The cam would be out of position for all the cylinders.

You do bring up a good point. I assumed Bernie already verified mechanical timing. Which would leave other issues for the dead cylinder.

I was under the impression the motor wouldn't run with a variance in compression between cylinders over a certain percentage. Let alone one being a literal dead cylinder for whatever reason.

I suppose the others should still catch if there isn't some other issue?

Nevermind I think I figured out the logic. Say stock psi is about 190, belt skips a couple teeth, timing is off just enough all cylinders drop 25 psi leaving cylinder one at 165, two at 160, three at 110 and four at 135. Once mechanical timing is corrected, you have 190, 185, 135, 160....

And also would explain why it's not starting because firing time is off from optimum time.

Am I getting perceiving the picture correctly?

Another question, if it skipped a couple of teeth, would it continue running until shut off?

I'm pretty sure the car was driven to it's parking spot, turned off and set for winter, then won't start this spring. I doubt it would skip a couple of teeth upon being shut off so I would think it would have had to still be running after it skipped so as to be parked.

Bernie, does the car sound like it tries to catch at all when cranking or acts like no fuel or no spark and just cranks and cranks with nothing?

magichands

I have had large variances across the board cause **** poor running but not a no start, unless they were extreme. 165-160-110-135. 135 is only 15psi off 160. that is however on the edge. i am not a Honda Tech, but i have seen them throw a belt and bend valves in a couple cylinders and still start with a new belt installed correctly. granted they barely ran, but they would start. i don't know what compression should be for this engine but i dont think they are bad enough to prevent it from starting.
"The history of this car as I understand it is that it had over heating problems around 130K mi and had a lot of parts thrown at it by a shop in D.C. Water pump, radiator, thermostat ,belts. A local guy bought it and put a new head gasket on it. I bought it, drove it 30K and it stopped running. I'm a little confused that the car would just stop running one day."
Blown head gaskets normally don't cause cars to "just stop running" without warning. severe overheat,coolant smell, knocking, loss of power, something. if the head gasket is blown bad enough to cause a no start fill the radiator up, leave the cap off and crank the engine, if it spits out of the radiator its blown. do the same with the cap on and the spark plugs out, it should spit water out of plug holes. with radiator full and plugs in, when you crank it does it lope like it's trying to hydurlock?
Bottom line is a head gasket blown bad enough to cause a no start is easy to spot.
Either way i would verify the timing belt before i pulled the head. you might get lucky and have a belt that jumped and didn't bend valves. ALWAYS VERIFY THE BASICS BEFORE YOU COMPLICATE THE PROBLEM!!

magichands

SORRY 135 is 25psi off 160 still could fire, just not very strong
i had one running fine shut off for 5 mins and jumped time when cranked again=no start.
And yes you have the idea correct

TomCat39

Okay cool, thanks for reeling it back in. I get too hasty sometimes and do exactly what you warn not to do, and that is forget the basics. That coupled with assumptions on what has or has not been done has gotten me into trouble more than once.

I honestly did not think it could jump timing upon cranking. I really thought you'd need the full torque of the running engine to skip teeth. I will store that little tidbit away, just might save a lot of headache some day.

So really by the sounds of what you described, if mechanical timing is correct, then it's either a fuel issue which seems to have been rules out or an ignition issue like a bad Ignition Control Module as an example. The head gasket portion would just be part of the rough running if it's even the issue with the dead cylinder.

bernie f

WOW! this is great! I shut down too early last night. The weather has been too cold to do a lot of work but today spring has arrived. I will first try an old fashion trick of a little oil in the bad cylinders one at a time and see what happens to the compression. Then I will pull the belt cover and check the mechanical timing or maybe the other way around just incase the belt is the problem. I hope the HEI tester shows up tomorrow just to be sure about the spark. To answer a few questions.

The engine ran the day before the problem. The day of the problem it fired for about one second and quit. It was late fall and the car sat all winter.

The engine does not try to fire when cranked but it does turn over well. No hydro lock

There is no sign of bubbles or spitting out the radiator and no water in the cylinders.

The oil is not tan.

According to my Haynes standard compression is 184, minimum is 135, max variance between cylinders is 28

I hope to post an update this evening and thanks for all the comments

bernie f

Update.........The timing is dead on. orange mark on crank lines up with block , cam lines up with head and block reference points. I put a little oil in bad cylinders. #3 went from 110 to 210, #4 went from 135 to 200. One thought crossed my mind and that is I wish I would have checked one bad cylinder after oiling the other bad cylinder first. Could the oil also have plugged up the gasket leak momentarily or do I just have to pistons with bad rings. I know one thing the oil pump is doing just fine. I had oil running off the head like crazy.

TomCat39

From what you've described, if the gasket is leaking it's not enough to be obvious nor from what's been mentioned, prevent it from running.

The wet test is pointing towards bad piston rings instead of bad valves. Still... Don't think it's your no start problem.

You are left with fuel and spark. You said you smelled fuel so it seems like you are getting fuel into the chambers. So that is leaving the ignition system as the most likely culprit. And would fit your description being the mechanical timing is bang on. Fuel usually doesn't just up and quit on all four at the same time unless say the pump died or the regulator quit, where ignition components can as well as the mechanical timing.

This is the troubleshooting guide from the FSM:



You did say you smelled gas but the plugs were not wet..... Maybe the pressure regulator isn't providing the proper pressure for proper atomization of the fuel.

I'll post the fuel system FSM pages on lunch, there is a few of them to go through.

bernie f

Something just crossed my mind. It sounds stupid but how does a zero code present it's self on the CEL diagnostic. In test mode my CEL stays on. A zero code is a faulty ECM. For zero is the CEL off or on constantly? Crap, I hope I haven't been reading the CEL as no code when it is a zero code. My Haynes manual didn't specifically say what a zero code is and I might be misreading it.

bernie f

I just found one post on this site that talks about a zero code being a solid CEL in test mode. If that's true, I have a Faulty ECM code. I thought a zero would be no CEL.

magichands

My info says code 0 is mil light malfunction. mil does not come on even at key on bulb check. exactly what car and engine do you have? sohc? dohc? is there another mark on the crank pulley painted white? when you lined the marks up did you verify # 1 piston was at the very top, (tdc) on compression?

Sorry! there is another part of code 0. it's for mil stays on or comes on after 2 seconds. what does it do with key on light will stay on with service check connector jumped. do you have any codes?

Again, sorry, i'm in the middle of checking out a 02 sensor problem right now & rushed that reply while having a cig.

TomCat39

The no start ECU testing is quite a few pages. Crazy here at work will be after work before I can get those copied and pasted up for you.

bernie f

Hey no apology needed here. I appreciate any help I can get. I have a 94 Honda civic with a D16Z6 SOHC VTEC engine.

I read somewhere that the red mark on the crank is mechanical TDC mark. I confirmed the #1 piston was at TDC of it's compression stroke. There is a white mark in advance of the red mark. The distributor rotor is also in the correct position.

I'm not familiar with the word MIL. The check engine light does not come on during normal operation. When I jump the connector and turn on the key to pull codes, the CEL stays on. O.K. I just saw in my Haynes that the MIL is the malfunction indicator light.

I get no codes. Just a steady check engine light in test mode.

bernie f

I see Check Engine light and Mil light are the same in the owners manual.

magichands

Check engine light (CEL), malfunction indicator light (mil), service engine soon light (SES) tech speak for the same thing.
if the cel comes on for 2 seconds then goes out when the key is first turned to the run position, and stays on with service connector jumped it is working correctly.
Please review Ron's post #17 on page 1 of this thread. in that diagram it shows the white mark as TDC. i will have to double check but i believe that is correct. if my memory is right all the Honda's iv'e done used the white mark for TDC . red mark was used to check advance with a timing light. i gotta run for a sec. i'll post soon, as i have couple more questions.

magichands

I checked all data and Ron's diagram is correct. sounds to me like #1 piston is not all the way to the top or the crank pulley has spun a little. crankshaft keyway should be at 12 o'clock and white mark on pulley lined up with pointer and cam gear on the tdc mark of upper rear timing belt cover. just like the pic in Ron's post.
forgot, always rotate crank counter clockwise to be accurate and prevent belt from slipping.

TomCat39

Once you get the mechanical timing correct, let us know if it still won't start. Saved me from posting up 10 or more pages. I did manage to make my life easier for sharing the FSM and have extracted all the page images for easy uploading.

I'll post the first page for the No Start troubleshooting chart just for reference in the event that the mechanical timing adjustment doesn't fix the starting issue. I'm hoping it does though.

harley4jcs

Would you please post the info on page 72. I need to run down a sporadic fuel pump condition.

TomCat39

I'd be more than happy to. Did you create your own thread? If so what is the title?

bernie f

You are right!!!! What are the odds that the belt jump would line right up on the red mark. I pulled the wheel and cover. Of course I can't see the crank key BUT I turned the engine very carefully to the exact TDC for #1 This time it was slightly off the side of the red mark. I forgot what Ron's post 17 said and assumed the white mark was for a timing light and advance timing.

You guys sure make a great effort to keep us DIY types straight. I made a typical DIY Cranius Rectus mistake. I would have gone down the wrong path.

Should I get more than just a timing belt for this job?

Also, any suggestions on getting the crank bolt off? I don't have an air wrench. I saw a guy on you tube take one off with torch heat. I have a torch but would rather try other methods first. I'm just so glad I didn't hurry, run around with my hair on fire and get it wrong. This site is so cool.