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Old 05-23-2013, 07:53 PM   #1
DaveGeezy
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Icon2 B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

I hope I'm posting in the right place..

So I've been off the Honda/HT map for some time (a few years) and I need some opinion on something. I need to replace a my springs and retainers in a stock B18C1 head to get it back to good working order.

(Forgive me, I am trying to get my car back to life and havent been up on the terminology or abbreviations (chassis codes, part no.'s etc..)

My setup:
95 civic coupe chassis
B18C1 head rebuilt stock Honda internals (milled .2 mm)
AEM adjustable cam gears

B18C1 block: rebuilt
LS crank
LS rods
ACL bearings
JDM ITR pistons
ARP fasteners
-some kind of mid range IM
-AEM cai (also have a short ram)

Exhaust:
some type of a decent knock off tri-y header
cat delete
apex n-1 catback

Trans:
GSR trans (rebuilt Honda OEM)
ACT clutch
ACT lightweight flywheel (i think was about 11 lbs)

starter chipped
wideband O-2 (not connected)
rc 310 cc injectors, (not applied)
-Im sure there are some other gizmos that im missing ..

So anyways, the question is, being that im more less concerned about the longevity and reliability of this daily driver, should i upgrade my springs and retainers etc, or just go with Honda parts? Im just not sure what is reliable these days and also wont require much or any tuning to still get positive results. Im no where near a reputable tuner. Also, im looking at around 500$ for springs retainers and seats from the local honda dealership as it is right now, I remember getting great deals during my build through the use of this website. Who do i need to contact?
Again, please try not to bash me up too bad, Ive been out of the loop for far too long! But I appreciate and welcome any and all feeback, even if its just a random suggestion that could help!
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Go with a good spring set such as Supertech H1002D or Rocket Motorsports SL with K20A2 steel retainers. Stock springs offer very little margin of safety.

I'll post up a chart of spring specs later.

Here's da chart

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Rocket; 05-24-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Don't forget to check the other companies as well, such as Skunk2 Alpha series (formally the Tuner series) , Crower, and others.

Glad you're back.. time to start re-reading again.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:07 PM   #4
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Rocket SLs are snap fit on the the stock retainers. I don't think the others are. This helps/eliminates wear.
Fo-shizzay.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
Fo-shizzay.
Just... stop, please before you hurt yourself, like break a hip or something.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:26 PM   #6
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket View Post
Go with a good spring set such as Supertech H1002D or Rocket Motorsports SL with K20A2 steel retainers. Stock springs offer very little margin of safety.

I'll post up a chart of spring specs later.
Thanks, I would appreciate that!
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Thank you! I appreciate those suggestions. I definitely would prefer to go with something that doesn't require me to go to a "professional" to get me going, or have to get any other special tools as I am already thinking of ordering that euroexport valvespring compressor kit at about 80$ as my head it attached to the block and in the bay. So as long as it's kind of "plug and play" if you will? and it wont require special adjustments other than installation then I will be in good shape.. Any other suggestions for the setup that aren't gonna break the bank?
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:17 PM   #8
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Those are the main ones. If you can install that valvetrain with those tools, company will not make a difference as long as it is within the right specifications that YOU follow.

So if you're not familiar, yes, a professional is advised (or at least one more knowledgeable),
if not, then it isn't necessary. But most importantly, think about the final use of the car, and whether or not you plan to use any specific cams for more power later. If not, then the companies listed will be fine. no hidden secrets, just the specs and install heights.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Thanks alot for your time. Well the initial swap I had help with and I did the work of the build myself under the eyes and instruction of a friend who has done a number of solid setups. So I learned alot from that alone, however, Ive been out of it for so long, this sounds dumb but I really dont know what kind of specs I should be looking for to better complement the build I already have. I really hate to drag this out on you guys, but I dont have anyone in the area that knows a turd from a twinkie when it comes to import performance, and, I def dont plan on doing any more major mods on this car. Thats why I turned back to the place that showed me the light... HT! Also, I understand Rocket Motorsports doesnt have a website any more? Anyone you could point me to to help?
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:50 AM   #10
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

I agree with rocket, the stock valve springs are soft and aged..update with stiffer, fresher stuff. I have had a set of his gen 2 springs and retainers still running in a setup that I put together I think in 05? on stock cams.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:48 AM   #11
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

My post (2nd post of this thread) now has the spring chart. Check it out and compare the pressure and lift capabilities.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:04 AM   #12
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

He's talking about running stock cams. Stock springs/retainers are more than adequate. Has either valve spring or retainer failure ever been a problem on stock-redline engines with stock cams?
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:20 AM   #13
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

He's got cam gears, ITR pistons, etc running a modified ECU with prolly higher than stock redline. He prolly gonna drive it hard, harder than what some engineer in Japan could've imagined.

There's two choices (and two possible mistakes).

(1) Go with tired and already too soft springs and expose yourself to lack of valve control. Mechanical over-rev is a very definite possibility with spirited driving. We all do it. Want to do the 3rd-to-4th, but do 3rd-to-2nd shift . Downside is higher risk of blowing motor.

or

(2) Go with better valve control and lift capability to protect against mishaps. Anytime you are making more power, the instantaneous acceleration (shock) the spring sees goes up, regardless of the peak rpm numbers. Downside here is a lil extra money spent on springs.

Use your brain to decide here, not your heart.

Fo-shizzaaaay
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:43 AM   #14
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

That would be odd, since he won't be making much power above 8.2k anyways, but I guess it's his prerogative. If that's the case, then yes at least ITR valve springs might be a good upgrade. And stiffer valve springs will provide marginally better over-rev protection, it's true. However you're also recommending springs with 130%-200% higher-than-stock seat pressures on cams that don't need them within normal operating windows. They will cause accelerated valve train wear under all conditions, which is exactly in opposition to what the op wants -- longevity and reliability. That said if OP is often in an environment with a constant risk of missed-shift over-revving, like a circuit race, upgraded valve springs might be good insurance. Of course, if there is any chance OP will want to upgrade the cams in the future, now would be the time to get new valve springs.

So the question is, are you staying in normal operating windows, particularly the stock rev limit? Regarding instantaneous forces on the valves, I doubt OP will be making enough power to be having valve control problems on this build unless he has a big turbo he's not telling us about. You don't hear abut people changing valve springs when they switch to a 4.7 FD, for example.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have hard data on spring fatigue and effects on seat pressure in OEM valvetrains?
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:44 AM   #15
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Thanks Rocket, for the posting the chart. You all have been a great help.. The redline is still set a 8 grand btw but its def running at a much higher compression.. I imagine the B18c1 valvespring specs are similar to the B16 specs posted, but either way, what a difference! I'm finding the supertech valve springs and retainers for about 315$ on ebay, but still cant locate any RM's.. Any ideas where I can find RM's or a good dealer of either brand?

I wont be able to get professional help with advancing or retarding the cam gears for at least a few months after I get the head put back together, so I just want to make sure it wont be necessary to have this done because of the upgraded ST or RM valvesprings that have been suggested running on stock cams..?
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:59 AM   #16
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Other sources
https://www.jhpusa.com/store/pc/view...idCategory=657
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

For the cost of valve spring sets these days its worth while fitting them because 99% of the time we all end up buying better cams down the track and need to change springs and retainers then.
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Old 05-24-2013, 12:59 PM   #18
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Common concern: higher spring pressure will accelerate rocker wear. From what I've seen, 55lbs on the seat does not accelerate were.

My observations: We've had hundreds, I mean several hundred, G2 and SL customers; no complaints about wear. Two or three G2 customers have broken springs, zero with SLs. Slowsleeper ran 55lbs on the seat for 50K+ miles and when he traded in his cams, they literally looked like the had 500 miles.

Should be more concerned about valve float and **** banging around and the pounding the valve seats take from bouncing valves.

To a point, spring pressure is your friend, not enemy.

It's all about valve control, yo.
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Old 05-24-2013, 01:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

If you want Rocket stuff, you can hit up Slowsleeper.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:20 PM   #20
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

55lbs is nothing when it comes to seat pressure
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:42 PM   #21
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Looking at the 60 lb. Supertech springs, as an example, they have about the same seat pressure at 0.25" that a stock dual spring has at 0.40". It will cause accelerated wear. Will it cause problems after 50k miles? Proabably not, particularly with proper maintenance. But what can you expect at 100k? Or 200k? Granted 60 lb. is not stiff compared to some ultra high-performance springs. But those are not going to last over an interval that most people would consider acceptable.

The only point I want to make is that the OP asked for valve springs that will last the longest and be most reliable. Without a doubt the correct answer to that question is OEM valve springs. Valve control is great but the pure and simple answer is that stock valve springs already provide enough valve control on stock cams at stock rev limits. There is nothing practical to be gained by running stiffer valve springs -- there will still be seat pressure under all scenarios in the head OP has described. Thus there is a cost (longevity) with no benefit. The only potential advantages are:

1) More resistance to float induced by over-revving. This is potentially engine-saving but also unlikely for most drivers.
2) Greater power handling ability if FI is in the future for this engine
3) Potential to upgrade to bigger cams
4) Aftermarket valve springs can be cheaper than OEM

If these are not issues for the OP than he is better off with stock valve springs, pure and simple. If they are issues, or if they are potential issues, than the OP should consider a valve spring upgrade, knowing that there may be some tradeoff in longevity.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:51 PM   #22
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Sorry, you are making conclusions with which you have no data or observations.

Is your recommendation based on anything other than your conclusion that 60lbs is higher than 42lbs and therefore will cause more wear.

He shouldn't make more power and rev higher, too. Those things contribute to wear.

If you came here with testing data, I would begin to consider your point. But at the moment your views are "knee-jerk" the Earth is flat, blah blah blah.
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GagnarTheUnruly View Post
That would be odd, since he won't be making much power above 8.2k anyways, but I guess it's his prerogative. If that's the case, then yes at least ITR valve springs might be a good upgrade. And stiffer valve springs will provide marginally better over-rev protection, it's true. However you're also recommending springs with 130%-200% higher-than-stock seat pressures on cams that don't need them within normal operating windows. They will cause accelerated valve train wear under all conditions, which is exactly in opposition to what the op wants -- longevity and reliability. That said if OP is often in an environment with a constant risk of missed-shift over-revving, like a circuit race, upgraded valve springs might be good insurance. Of course, if there is any chance OP will want to upgrade the cams in the future, now would be the time to get new valve springs.

So the question is, are you staying in normal operating windows, particularly the stock rev limit? Regarding instantaneous forces on the valves, I doubt OP will be making enough power to be having valve control problems on this build unless he has a big turbo he's not telling us about. You don't hear abut people changing valve springs when they switch to a 4.7 FD, for example.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have hard data on spring fatigue and effects on seat pressure in OEM valvetrains?
I see what you're saying.. Unfortunately , I dont do any circuit racing here in NC. I don't ever rev over 8k, my ecu was set to keep it under just because I had an unbuilt head. And also, I dont have the resources I once had here to get help and advice with my build. Ultimately, you are correct about the function of my build, reliability and longevity(but not too worried about life past 100k), just like to jump on it now and then of course. It is quite a difference between the two seat pressures which had me worried... but

I had thought about the transition to ITR's, nothing too drastic of a change for the motor, but a little step in the right direction...? Plus, all my engine block internals are Honda because I know it is a solid reliable choice. The thought of aftermarket guts worries me slightly mostly because Im just not used to the idea of being personally unfamiliar with their quality. Would ITR springs require any other valvetrain specific mods/parts? And would the even more premium price of ITR parts be worth the extra $$?

I dont plan at all to put larger cams in or any kind of FI, just was aiming towards a strong, reliable and quicker than average daily driver and I want the valvetrain to last for at least 100k.

Damn I dont know which way to turn, but I gotta decide soon!
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:12 PM   #24
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

I have data, which you kindly provided regarding seat pressure. Are you going to argue at this point that seat pressure doesn't contribute significantly to wear? As you mention, power and engine revs also cause wear, of course. A major proximate cause being their effects on seat pressure, by the way.

Since valve control is so important, let's see a valve motion graph of a 50 lb. spring vs. a 120 lb. spring being operated by a stock GSR cam.

Let's also analyze how my responses are "knee-jerk." In what sense is it "knee-jerk" to pose conditions where one option is better, and other conditions where the other option is better? That strikes me as a more complete and less reactive perspective.

You've provided your opinion, I've given mine. Only one of us has tried to undermine the other.

Your mission here is to put a stop to bro-science on this forum, so how about it?
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Old 05-24-2013, 03:15 PM   #25
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Default Re: B18C1 valvetrain: Upgrade or Honda OEM? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGeezy View Post
I see what you're saying.. Unfortunately , I dont do any circuit racing here in NC. I don't ever rev over 8k, my ecu was set to keep it under just because I had an unbuilt head. And also, I dont have the resources I once had here to get help and advice with my build. Ultimately, you are correct about the function of my build, reliability and longevity(but not too worried about life past 100k), just like to jump on it now and then of course. It is quite a difference between the two seat pressures which had me worried... but

I had thought about the transition to ITR's, nothing too drastic of a change for the motor, but a little step in the right direction...? Plus, all my engine block internals are Honda because I know it is a solid reliable choice. The thought of aftermarket guts worries me slightly mostly because Im just not used to the idea of being personally unfamiliar with their quality. Would ITR springs require any other valvetrain specific mods/parts? And would the even more premium price of ITR parts be worth the extra $$?

I dont plan at all to put larger cams in or any kind of FI, just was aiming towards a strong, reliable and quicker than average daily driver and I want the valvetrain to last for at least 100k.

Damn I dont know which way to turn, but I gotta decide soon!
If I were you, I'd do ITR cams and ITR valve springs. Sticking with GSR cams I'd stick with GSR valve springs unless you are worried about the over-revving people have brought up.

That said, I don't think you can really go wrong with any of the options presented here. Lots of people have had lots of success with every combination of these parts. The only thing you definitely don't want to do is have valve springs/retainers that are too weak for your cams. That will end in heartbreak.

Edit: in particular Rocket and The Shodan are very experienced engine builders so definitely hear what they have to say
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