jdmdohcek98

iTrader: (1)

So at RR98ITR's request here is our recent conversation through pm's. Reason I had pm'ed him in the first place was because I saw his recent thread on here. he has a pic of his coilovers and was wondering what kind he had. Since they werent koni's i was interested out what they were and his experience with them.

jdmdohcek98

iTrader: (1)

here is a perfect example of my arguement "someone kill this thread" "heated stock springs" bunch of ignorance. How about the guys who can help and post vague replies. I guess you have to be a cool kid to get some informative information around here.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/road-racing-autocross-time-attack-19/best-road-race-suspension-2859871/

RR98ITR

My last post in IM:

*** Sorry again - but I'm not ******* you for not knowing anything. If anything I'm telling you that I don't know enough to answer your questions. Funny thing about alloy damper bodies - the weight savings isn't very much. And I don't preach "keep it stock". I believe in making a car work acceptably for it's purpose. Seriously - I have WASTED so much money it about makes me want to cry. I'm only trying to help you. And post this all up - I won't screw you over. ***

You know, everybody, this guy has a typical problem/question, and the boards aren't usually good enough in providing advice along the lines that the questioner wants/needs to hear. So I want to give it a better try.

Scott, who'll return to this later to see how it's going and muster some verbiage...

essex

If you need to ask someone what brand to drop 5K on shocks then you are not ready to spend 5K.


RR98ITR also had some Mugen or bilsteins? on his car before I bet they cost a lot less than 2K if he told you those were great would you go buy them? You are looking for the ultimate answer and no one can give you that. Many people can get the job done on Koni's and there are people that can't figure out how to go fast with their Motons. What does it all mean lol?

jdmdohcek98

iTrader: (1)

que?

jdmdohcek98

iTrader: (1)

some more

the only koni's im looking at right now are the 3012 because of the aluminum body. If I am buying light weight wheels and calipers etc etc why not get some light weight coilovers even if it isnt by much who cares? because I know thats going to be your reply..."the weight difference isnt noticable" "you dont need that part just stay stock, spend your money on seat time" why not just say I dont know what I am talking about or simply not reply?

Sorry again - but I'm not ******* you for not knowing anything. If anything I'm telling you that I don't know enough to answer your questions. Funny thing about alloy damper bodies - the weight savings isn't very much. And I don't preach "keep it stock". I believe in making a car work acceptably for it's purpose. Seriously - I have WASTED so much money it about makes me want to cry. I'm only trying to help you. And post this all up - I won't screw you over.Yeah I posted it up.

its funny though I have pm'ed several ppl on here that seem to know there stuff like your buddy solo x, stinkycheese etc. and i kid you not they all sound like robots "just buy koni" stinky was kinda helpful but after a long conversation and attitude. solo x was very vague as he is all the time. seems as if we should understand all his half *** statements.

also besides koni the statement I hear the most is dont buy that get more seat time. ok I can be a badass driving but if I am on shitty tokico blues with ebay coils I am limiting my potential. driving skill isnt going to improve your suspension. Me I rather do things right the first time instead of going back and fixing it later. I already had to do this twice with the omnis and the tein flex. like I wish I had the money to buy all these baller setups and test them and find out which I like most.

RR98ITR

One of the things that most of us have in common is that we all need a reason to buy what we buy. That comes down to available information. And let's face it - for dampers the information is sketchy. I've tried to tell our friend that most of us know too little to give advice. And honetly, the default to "just use Koni" is well founded in the many racers who go plenty fast on them. There's clearly a point of diminishing returns at work and many of us have sufficient funds to explore that pointless realm. I hold myself up as a prime example - I'm one of the most formidable idiots I've ever seen. I've got some neat stuff, I've made some neat parts, and all the while my heart is heavy because I'm not actually driving. I'm doing something wrong. And as frustrated as our friend is, I'm almost as frustrated because the odds of helping them are as low as were the odds of anyone helping me. What can we do better. Seriously. No making fun.

Scott, who is currently working on my incredibly trick fuel system...and functional...and economical...forget a pound on a damper body, save me 30 in fuel!

jdmdohcek98

iTrader: (1)

I never said I am looking for the ultimate answer or the "best suspension". I said I have $2500 to spend and within that range in your opinion what would be a nice suspension to run? If he was in need of more details then I would have provided him with them. I can appreciate his sincerity when he said he doesnt know.

jdmdohcek98

iTrader: (1)

I do not know how to read a shock dyno. I do not have endless amounts of money to buy every coilover setup imaginable to test. thats you guys SHOULD come in and say well hey stay away from X company there parts are **** or hey I dont like X company shock dynos etc.

slammed_93_hatch

look into the double adjustable non remote resivoir shocks from JRZ and moton.


I used them and was really impressed, they where much much better then the 3011's i ran, and we did some testing against 2812s and found the JRZ to be better/faster also.

IMO Koni has started to "price" itself out of the market. Before all of the price increases they have had over the last couple of years the 3011 at ~$1600 and the 2812 at ~$2400 where AMAZING buys, you got a great quality shock, great performance and nothing else was close to it in price.

Now the pricing is ~$2400 for 3011s, and ~$3800 for 2812s. They are still great quality, great perofrmance, but the prices are now much higher.

And IMO, you have can get a better preforming shock for similar money. That is equal to/better then the quality of the Koni.

The JRZ RS pro is ~$3300, and it is a better shock (IMO and experience) then the 2812.

ALthough some of what is "better" is found in the seat/feel/speed of the car, some of it also comes from theory. I like/agree with the JRZ/moton way of tunning/valving/adjusting shocks. I find that the Koni way doesn't sound right to me, and leaves something to be desired in feel.


As far as the Zeal/Tein/JDM/etc stuff, I don't like in terms of theory, and feel/speed on the track. Everything i've seen is linear with little to no adjustments. No thanks!!


I will say this though, if you're just starting out and don't have a lot of seat time, nor have a very strong grasp of shocks/valving/etc. You are simply wasting money.

I am/was lucky enough to have other people (faster driver/great practical engineer, and a ALMS engineer), help me with valving, adjustments, and setup. With out that i doubt the shocks would really be worth the money.

Not saying you need that, but it certainly made things go a lot quicker in getting the car handling well. But if you don't know compression Lo & high from rebound Lo & high, then you are likely to just turn ***** and never get any where...

It sounds like you would be great with a set of 8041-SPSS3 shocks...

Atmosfear

iTrader: (18)

I cannot really offer any advice by way of what coilover to buy. But what I can do is understand your position, and tell you that I have been, and to an extent still am in the same situation.

Let me share something with you that you may find helpful. I have only been doing lapping days/scca time trials for one year. I have been using a set a Tanabe Sustec Pro-S something or another coilovers that I got for free 4-5 years ago. They were on my EG hatch when I daily drove it and are still on it.

I still want better coilovers, but they really are "good enough" for now and I will focus on other things for the car and more seat time/driving instruction. Heres why, a more recent Time Trials event I attended, there were several fully road race prepped track cars there. One of which was an E46 BMW M3 CSL. It was a very cool car, and fairly rare. Anyhow, it was fitted with a high end set of JRZ coilovers, was on race tires, and had more power than me, and was being driven by someone with much more experience than me. I was on street tires with the aforementioned Tanabe coilovers in my EG Civic hatch.

At the end of the day I looked at my times. The M3 CSL's best time was only .08 seconds faster than me.

This made me decide that the next set of coilovers I would buy would be good enough (= expensive) that I would never need another set again.

If your current setup is good enough to race on without frustrating the hell out of you, then I suggest you save the money you already have until you are ready to buy a really nice set (like the Motons).

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

i bolded this because i havent seen where you stated your experience. sounds like you are just starting out. which if you are you might want to become more of a sponge than a rock.

i myself went from tein ras to 8041-race dampers. i did one event on the teins which was my first and did 5 track events and a few autox on the konis. the konis low speed damping was a ton better than the teins. i see myself on the konis for awhile until i get the funds for jrz but at that time hopefully im at another platform anyway.

also too since it was brought up. i know someone who ran tokico blues for awhile now and was pretty quick on them. given this was just a de car and not w2w car but regardless the car is on track. i also ran in an experienced persons car last year which was an ej1. this car was on ebay coilovers..type R shocks..and ra1s. i chuckled at the setup to myself thinking "this will be an experience and ride worse than the teins". wrong. this car was smooth. not twitchy and also wasnt like the driver wasnt pushing it because he was all over it.

so really why not grab a set of spss3s and the spring rates you want to run. i know you said somewhere you dont get or believe the whole seat time thing on "underpar" dampers. well i used 2 examples above of people who have track "successfully" on lesser dampers. both of which instruct at different events/groups so the experience is there and i also can bet they ran over some people on "better" dampers because they were fulfilling their potential.

jdmdohcek98

iTrader: (1)

This is they kind of reply I was looking for. Sucks that it took so much effort to get it. I will look into your recommendations and report back. Also whatever setup I do get I will contact X company and set the "*****" to "factory" settings or w/e they recommend. I know that I dont have the knowledge to actually setup the car. I will leave that to a professional. I will have them setup camber, toe, damper settings etc.

Now maybe I am asking the wrong questions. I need to understand in everday Joe explanation how things work. I have done some searching but the informative threads have alot of complicated terms, and that to be honest I dont understand some of it. So what makes a good shock? What makes moton better than lets say koni 3011? what do you look for on a shock dyno?

jdmdohcek98

iTrader: (1)

also does anybody know a reputable shop in fl that can setup my car?

Lo-Buck EF

old *** buddyclubs on my car. why? because im not fast enough to NEED anything better.

redzcstandardhatch

i've been tracking for years on 3 sets of shocks.

1-stock shocks. ran them with H&R race springs. didnt mind them, but i was a brand new nooby nooby. car was simple, good condition, and a great setup to learn on.

2-tokico illuminas. meh. something about them i didnt like much. they were ok, but nothing wonderful. ran with H&r races, and then 450-350 coilovers.

3-stock koni yellows. still on the car. 30+ days on them. just pulled everything apart and they are just fine. ran with a myriad of rates, some a bit more than "Koni's can handle"

i want to go with revalved spss3's later, but i'm not changing them, because i've got NOTHING to complain about. they are simple on the street, and predictable like NOBODYS BUSINESS. different tracks, different tires, different weights (driver w/ passenger, driver alone, heavier wheels, lighter wheels, etc, its just easy to drive. they soak up curbs on track, react smoothly to dips/problems on tracks, and are great. they are just great.

from everything my friends/what i've read has said, the revalves are just a step better, and tougher.

i owe koni nothing, have no affiliation, etc. but, i LOVE my koni shocks.

my advice, is get something good. drive on track as much as you can. figure out what happens when you make changes (bars, springs, tire pressures,etc), learn what you "like".

its a slow process to REALLY like your car. but its the fun part.

circuitdevil

Hey ek98,

I dont have a lot of credibility on this forum and you should take all advice you get on the internet with a grain of salt, however I have seen a similar question come up before, even recently. The statement: `If you need to ask someone what brand to drop 5K on shocks then you are not ready to spend 5K`` that you found confusing I fully understand. It simply means that if you were in that level of competition you would already have the basis and knowledge to know and setup what is fast. You would have enough seat time and competition to know what the fast guys are running and what engineers to talk to. Instead of asking what the best shocks are, as a general blanket statement, you would be looking for shock dyno charts of each shock and be able to decide what is the best range of adjustment and valving for YOUR purpose. The fact that you want it in layman`s terms shows that you simply do not have the experience out on track to make this descision.

Why are you hesitant to state your experience? Maybe this is a clue that people are honestly looking out and giving you the advice to not make the same mistakes as they have. Maybe you are a pro gt driver, most likely you are just being stubborn and have some cash to blow. The guys here are just trying to help you out.

Now time to sound like a broken record.

I could be wrong, but Im assuming you are fairly new to the sport. I am also assuming you think that you might as well develop your potential on the best equipment you can rather than adjust to changes once you improve equipment. Then you have completely the wrong idea. There is a reason new to autocross people get advice to not begin on hoosiers. It will hide the mistakes they make, and no matter what they do will actually be detrimental to their learning curve. Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from seat time. No way to skip it. Once you and your best regional driver cannot extract any more time out of your car (taking tire pressure adjustment and data aquisition into consideration), only then will you be ready and have the experience to make changes. Because then you will actually know what the car is doing and be able to adjust it to your liking and driving style to extract the maximum performance. What feels fast is often slow. You need data, and you need experience.

Get a decent data setup (Traqmate and G2X are decent midlevel entry systems) and start working on maximizing your current setup.

Dont get pissy at me and try to learn something from my wall of text. Good luck.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

If you are asking for someone to set up your car for you, you dont have enough experience to know what changes will benefit or impede you.

Everyone says start off bone stock. I say it too.
Why, you have to learn to drive that car to the limits stock.
I know quite a few drivers here that run wheel to wheel including a few who have posted here that just simply drive the hell out of a car.

They are fast no matter what they get into.
How? They work endlessly on their racecraft.
Track time!
It sounds like you want to put the carriage before the horse. Maybe its the way you are wording your posts.
You can build fast, but if you cant control fast.. then you arent fast. Ya just look fast.
Heed the advise of those who have posted ahead.

The majority use Koni because its race proven,(lifetime guarantee), good quality and for the most part.. affordable.
If you have an endless budget then go get those Motons.
If you can afford the best, then you buy the best because you have that luxury.
Most of us are everyday Joes who can only afford what we can get.
If we want something better we save up or sell off parts to get to the higher goal.
Educating yourself is important be it alignment, shock rebound, valving, sway bars etc..
Not all of it is clear cut or simple to understand most of us find someone who can break it down into laymans terms.
What we dont know we seek the simplified answer, its not always out there in front of your face.
I understand your frustration, but sometimes the clear answer takes a while to come into view.
Nobody here claimed to be a race engineer.
I know a few, i know some knowledgeable drivers who cant always explain things.
I tend to ask alot of questions, and i even ask a great many times for them to simplify things for me.
Sometimes i walk away with the question marks still popping out of my head.
Back to the drawing board on that one.
Keep asking questions and seeking the knowledge.

RR98ITR

Something about the "just drive it" kind of advice we so often generate. It's hard to listen to. But it's hugely worth hearing.

Somebody mentioned the need to know what you're doing to make effective use of damper adjustments, with obvious implications re wasting money and confusing oneself. This is precisely where the "just drive it advice" proves it's worth. The area where such adjustments are useful ls at the top of the performance envelope. In many cases a drivers failure to discern any effect from changes in settings is because they are so slow they are out of bounds for any meaningful effects. And they are unable to perceive their lack of sufficient speed because they have not made the mental quantum leap that renders the driving experience a dispassionate and cerebral effort as opposed to the overwhelmingly sensual experience that typically first hooks us. And the thing is, just about ANY car is suitable to learn about the top of the envelope with. Driving around a cars vices, assuming that chief among them isn't that it's trying to kill you, is Excellent training, teaching the dilligent student essential skills. I think of all the times I've hopped in a seemingly total crap kart and ended up turning yet faster laps. A good driver pulls the maximum out of what they've got to work with.

Another thing...about dampers. They are too often asked to make up for otherwise poor setups. Like improper balance between front and rear roll stifness, or insufficient roll stiffness for the particular geometry. Ren on the DSR board gave great advice about setting up a car (on full soft everthing, and take the rates up up up to the sky and only then start turning *****). I myself had Great fun with ludicrous rates and huge damper forces for a while - the car being very darty and quite a handful over the curbs. A few laps and the drama was over, less of everything and it's just another day at the office. The benefit to me had I said "this is crap" and come in and twiddled over and over would have been far less. There's a clear benefit to making setup mistakes in racing - you're stuck with it and if you're any kind of racer at all you're damn well gonna make the best of it.

Scott, who isn't disputing that a good and well balanced car is the most rewarding to drive...I'd like to drive one of those more often...

Aquafina

iTrader: (3)

OP,

How much experience do you have?

Without knowing it seems like you want to buy the best to make your car faster as you don't fully "get" the car and are the current holdup to it being faster (this is why people are telling you to just get more seat time).

I've been tracking on CTR shocks/springs (very similar to ITR) since 2005 and just now feel that its pointless for me to continue on them (in terms of becoming faster). I will either go with shelf Koni Yellows and Omnipower springs (have a set here that I never used and free = good) or some form of PIC coilovers. I'm not an expert on suspension so I'm going to look at the pros/cons of each setup and ask each company any questions I have and make my decision from there.

IMO you should choose a setup that you can adjust to your liking at the track without any help. Unless you have the budget for a trackside crew that can successfully adjust it for you just by hearing your inputs on the cars behavior.

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

i like both of these and scott.s bring another point to mind. i said this to someone else last night about this topic. you still havent stated your experience so im still going with zero but you have a pretty decent "budget" for dampers. if i were in your shoes i would buy the ots konis and use the extra "shock budget" for track events. you could squeeze 4 or maybe 5 events in with the left over money. 4 or 5 events is HUGE. so you add 4 or 5 events on top of your already said "track budget"..BOOM you are getting (pun intended) an assload of seat time.

i think your main problem here is and take this how you want because it is the honest truth. you want a given answer and you are too stubborn to hear otherwise. every post on here has had given value but yet you dont seem to find it "worthy". why? like i said before..be a sponge. all of these people have more experience than you and most more than i do. everyone is giving you feedback from their experience which is more than yours given you have zero. so why be so closed minded? you never know..maybe you save your money on your damper budget then put it towards seat time and you might be rolling stuff you never thought possible on "a lesser damper". i can tell you from my experience that seat time helped me a ton. in an "underpowered" car i passed some cars that i never thought i would..let alone have time with them on the track. was it because i had "superior" dampers on my car?? no it was because i was able to fulfill most of my car capabilities. if those cars had "equal" drivers then my car would get rolled like snoop dogg.s business. which brings me to scott.s point....

since you think dampers are such a huge deal and arent willing to listen to everyone else.s opinion. if there is a local public karting facility..not the kiddie ones that go 2mph. a legitimate karting center and since you are in florida you should have a few around. take some buddies and run a few heats. dont use the same kart twice no matter how "good" it feels. learn the deficiencies of the karts and how to optimize them. this is kind of what everyone has been eluding to. like dirty said..putting the horse before the carriage.

jdmdohcek98

iTrader: (1)

You guys have given me some things to think about. I havent been hiding my experience, so I dont know where you guys are getting that from. It obvious from the first post that I am just a beginner, and I am not ashamed to say it.

About the comment if I am asking what damper to drop $5k on I am not ready. First off I just dont see how me going to events and getting seat time will help me make a choice on what damper I should get at "that level". What if everyone at the events I attend use koni? To be honest I dont ever see me buying a set of motons for my civic, why? Because I think it would be a overkill. I want to track my car be competitive and have fun, I am not going pro by any means and its just a hobby.

Now on the comment that with seat time and experience I will know how to set up my car. I think thats bs as well. So I get race koni's and get lots of seat time, get to understand the dynamics of suspension a bit more. How does that turn me into and engineer? I am all for diy 99% of whats done to my car I have done myself. But when it comes to setting dampening and rebound together with alignment. I rather leave that up to someone who knows what they are doing and does this for a living. Its like saying someone who races there car every event (drag racing) with time and experience will know how to tune there car. Wrong!

The only person that really has me thinking is circuitdevil. He said that learning on "good coilovers" or "good tires' is wouldnt help me because it would cover up my mistakes. There is some truth to that. And at this point I am a bit confused in what I want to do.

Some info about my car so you can see where I am at. 97 civic hatch, fully gutted no sound deadening, headliner, carpet etc. just race seats dash and door panels, 16x8 +38 enkei rpf1, kumho xs 215/45/16, prothane bushings, pci rear trailing arm bushing, full race traction bar (dont know if that helps), itr front and rear brakes (spoon front calipers coming soon), cage coming soon also (maybe auto power), front and rear strut barz (but I dont know if they help). reason I went will poly is because my function 7 rear lca's use a different size bushing than oem so I am stuck with poly or spherical. spherical is great but my car does see some street use (car meets) so I opted to stick with poly. Hard race was my second choice but like I said wont fit in my rear lca. I know the cons about poly but there cheap to replace and easy to change vs. hardrace bushings.

As of right now I have NO COILOVERS. I had tein flex and I recently sold them. Before that I had omni power coils. I also had asr 24mm rear sway and 22mm front oem sway. I decided to sell the sway and coils and start over. I decided to buy coilovers, and track the car and then based on how the car felt I will add sways. I have driven a couple track prepped fwd cars. I like higher rates in the back, I feel comfortable with the rear end coming out a bit. From my search and based on it being a track car with some street use I came up with 12k f 14k r. I would have went stiffer but like I said there will be some street use (driving to the track, car meets).

I also read a nice article on redshift's website about setting up a car. Given me alot to thing about. Well guys keep it coming I am being a "sponge".

Stinkycheezmonky

I'm highlighting the pertinent comments here.
1. You are presuming to know more than all of us collectively ("Wrong!", "I think thats bs"), yet you admit to being a beginner (1 autocross if I read your PM correctly). What makes you think you know more than all of us, and if so, why the hell are you asking for our opinions? Everything you just stated as "wrong" and "bs" is, in fact, exactly the opposite, and is entirely true. If you can't feel what the car is doing (engine, suspension, brakes, etc.) more and more with increased experience, you are completely ignorant.

2. You're coming off like a dick here. Big time. Just in case you aren't aware of that, throwing your disapproval in the face of everyone here who is trying to help you ("The ONLY person...") is pretty goddamn rude and disrespectful. If you want help, that is not the way to get it.

Hardly. This is entirely contradictory to everything else you just posted.

I have no further stake in this discussion, but you need to wake up and realize how you're coming off to everyone here. YOU are asking for help. All the members here are doing you a favor in responding at all. You would do well to realize and recognize that.

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

im going to follow stinky.s lead. im not going to bold stuff because well almost all of the stuff i left in this quote im going to try to hit.

you say you are 99% a DIY guy. well good..grab a book and figure out how to get a car up. pretty simple just to do some de.s or driving events. put your toe at zero and throw some camber at it. even easier is to drive it to an alignment shop and tell them the setting you want. circuitdevil could help you with those and about the damper settings. i have ran full soft in the front to full stiff in the rear and places in between. the car will "handle" regardless just how it is "handled" is to be determined. you could adapt to the car but maybe you dont want to venture that far yet. also maybe you are wondering about tires..i mean those are part of the suspension system right?? or maybe not. i dont know but anyway depending on tires toss 32-36psi cold in them and go from there.

there are some of us in here who are just handy and like to play with our cars. some are actually intelligent and still like to play with their cars. there are some in this thread that are engineers or in school to be and guess what..they like to play with their cars. so do you have to be an engineer to adjust psi in a tire or the "setting" of a damper. NO. anyone can do it and for me..hell that is half the fun. to be honest with you again you might go through a whole weekend where you dont even touch the shock settings. oh man..we might be getting somewhere but wait...

you think motons are overkill. holy cow..well a bunch of us in here have told you many of your choices will be overkill but yet you still dont believe us. it is just a hobby and you want to have fun. well go have fun and it will be hard to be competitive in a de. i mean i know a few de1 and de2 champions but they are hard to come by.

so circuitdevil cleared things up for you when he/she said "that learning on "good coilovers" or "good tires' is wouldnt help me because it would cover up my mistakes." hmmm. i kind of got that from a few people in this thread so far but maybe they didnt spell it out for you exactly how you needed it. i thought dirty did a good job with the carriage in front of the horse line...

egezzy..who wishes his name was bob and he lived in a pineapple house under the sea.

redzcstandardhatch

(ducks as stinky rips off his shirt and starts turning green)




seriously dude...you dont think that track time will give you insight into how you'd like your suspension set up?

seriously?