zrickety

iTrader: (1)

mario, i understood about half of what you said...but this concept does work. i have read up on it and there are real benefits to this setup depending on how it's built.

btw, i pm'ed the OP and he was in the hospital (not because of this) and he's going to get back to the project when he can

shula

I have one on my 1997 Honda Accord and my 1999 Dodge Ram Van. They both run smoother with the generators on. The Honda went from 22 to 33.8 mpg. The computer on the 199 Dodge Van does not like the generator and not much luck with that one, yet. Got them at http://www.hydrogenfuelsells.com

FuNkDrSpOt

iTrader: (5)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 0c00l &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My next step is looking into running a car on nothing but water! I know, I know it can't be done becuase if it could then the autoindustry would have done it years ago bla bla bla... Well after visiting http://www.waterpoweredcar.com and the whole concept of seperating the oxygen and hydrogen right from the water and igniting it doesnt seem to far fetched when you think of how they are doing it. High frequency AC current (not like 60hz in your house) but real high like 10khz may be the key of vibrating the water molocules and seperating the hydrogen and oxygen all in one shot and igniting it with the ac current. I am just considering running tests at this point so understand that before you comment </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hate to bring this up from the dead but the reason why the Auto industry doesn't do this is because:

1. they're morons
2. There are no HHO fill stations
3. They're stuck on the Fuel cell design instead of hydrogen gas.

Here is a very good article about how we should be doing hydrogen gas instead of hydrogen fuel cells.
http://www.newsreview.com/sacr...14759

FuNkDrSpOt

iTrader: (5)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stunn’d &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

"Thus, if the device operated as claimed, the combustion cycle would start and end in the same state while extracting usable energy, thereby violating both the first and second laws of thermodynamics, allowing operation as a perpetual motion machine. Meyer's claims about the Water Fuel Cell and the car that it powered were found to be fraudulent by an Ohio court in 1996."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer

If I were to "invent" a magic engine that ran solely on water*wink,wink* I would be telling everyone that Ive been offered billions by the government and secret corporations too.

Get real</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't know much of that guy at all but what do you think rocket fuel is? Hydrogen gas is not 'water'.

civickid03

it would be nice to see this on that 3 stage vtec jdm d15...i wonder if it would work with the 20:1 afr in economy mode

bigjerel24

I had the exact same system running on my 1990 geo metro lsi 1.0 liter 5 speed manual. I had a heck of a time finding the right vacum line to tap, but once I found a good one, I went from 51mpg highway to 62 mpg highway. The bottle definitely gets hot but I never had any issues with breakage on the glass. My son built one and put it on his 1996 Mercury Grand Marquis, but he did not see any gas mileage improvements. The water4gas website specifically lists which cars have the best results as well as the worst and the Grand Marquis was listed as one that won't see any improvements unless the map enhancer is introduced. I recently sold my geo and purchase a 1991 crx si which I and running now to get a good baseline mpg and then I am going to install the system I removed from the geo into the crx. I will post the results once I have good data to compare the before and after mpg. My understanding is that it is the efficiency of the burn which is improved, not the pure volume of the HHO you inject. There is a point at which adding extra HHO does not improve gas mileage and you will need to do a bunch of fiddling around with the setup to find the perfect mixture. I used a 10amp inline fuse and tapped off of a hot wire that energized when the ignition key was in the run position so I didn't have to worry about turning the system off or on.

zrickety

iTrader: (1)

sweet, let us know when your system is on and how the mpg improves
i am still experimenting with my HHO setup in the garage, once i think i'm making enough gas i'll put it in the car. sensor mods are key if you ask me

crxcess

this was on motoweek tv last weekend. they say it doesn't work either.

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2801.shtml


still though, i'd like to hear more results you guys come up with. good luck.

zrickety

iTrader: (1)

i just read that article...there is NO way 15 gallons of gasoline = 45,000 gallons of water. i would like to know where they get their figures. i have made hydrogen and ignited it, you really get a ton of it from little water. and to really get the benefit requires sensor mods. the car sees the efficient, leaner, cleaner exhaust and thinks it needs to add fuel. if anyone thinks they will get significant improvement by just hooking up the HHO they are mistaken. the car needs to be 'tuned' for the supplemental hydrogen use. it's like any other significant mod

stunn'd

Hah, there is a little more then just a few reasons/factors as to why the world doesn't run on Hydrogen.

Directly from your linked article:

So lets start with the basics.. obviously, to make hydrogen, you need electricity.. in fact "the cost of producing a kilogram of hydrogen, about the same amount of energy as a gallon of gasoline, is about $4." So unless you can make Hydrogen much more efficiently by defying the laws of physics like so many scammers and people in this thread are claiming to do, then we are left with a couple of options... some not as rational as others.

So, with that said lets examine how electricity is produced. Now unless you want to spend trillions and cover up millions of acres of gods green earth with solar panels and wind mill generators (Not to mention only where its frequently windy/sunny) only to make a few Kw of power then be my guest.. but until then the most efficient current method of producing electricity is through fossil fuels (Geesh.. what a vicious cycle )

If you have read any of this thread or anything about Stanly Meyer you would know that people are trying to extract hydrogen from water literally inside there vehicle, then further inject the hydrogen into the engine to boost fuel economy. And in Stanly Meyers case, he claimed his engine could run entirely on water (Pouring water into the gas tank) 100% efficiency, perpetual motion... yeah f*cking right. Uneducated individuals are believing this crap that was filmed in the 1980's and posted on youtube, completely ignoring all of the facts and basic highschool science / theory. And scammers are taking in a nice chunk of profit. Like this guy:

Hmm, great first post ^

I have a 1990 H22 CRX thats I converted to hydrogen!! It went from 27mpg to 36mpg. Although the computer on my buddys Chev doesnt seem to like it.. but that's okay because I'm just trying to attract Honda owners on a Honda forum.

http://www.Stunnd'sHydroConversionKits.com 30% more efficient than any one else's. Only $200.00 Limited time offer, buy 2 kits get 1 one absolutly FREE! But wait, theres more!

stunn'd

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zrickety &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i just read that article...there is NO way 15 gallons of gasoline = 45,000 gallons of water. i would like to know where they get their figures. i have made hydrogen and ignited it, you really get a ton of it from little water. and to really get the benefit requires sensor mods. the car sees the efficient, leaner, cleaner exhaust and thinks it needs to add fuel. if anyone thinks they will get significant improvement by just hooking up the HHO they are mistaken. the car needs to be 'tuned' for the supplemental hydrogen use. it's like any other significant mod</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol, well I would certainly believe anyone's figures over yours.... "hmm there's lots of little bubbles coming from my electrolytic jar.. that must mean im getting enough hydrogen to boost my mpg!"

If anyone thinks they are going to get a significant improvement period, with or without sensors (thats a good sales pitch).. They are sadly mistaken.

Did everyone in this thread buy one of those tin air twirlers that go your intake too?

There are many engineers working on improving mpg and alternate fuel sources, lets leave it up to them shall we.. they seem to be slightly more educated and qualified. And if you think an engineer assembled this "kit" from the Walmart Home Appliance Section, you are soo dead wrong:

zrickety

iTrader: (1)

i have been researching this whole hydrogen on demand thing for awhile. the fact is that lots of people spread over the planet are making real progress with this technology. i believe NASA and the military are playing with it too. if you don't think so, wake up. i'm not saying there is truth to every story, or that these kits are the best, but there is enough evidence to pursue hydrogen. the automakers are playing with it, just in different ways. when fossil fuels run out, they will phase the new technology in. they can't make the most money otherwise. that's why you won't see any of these kits made by real engineers. there are organizations and people that open-source their findings. if we ever hope to see a real alternative to gasoline, it will have to happen grassroots-style.

stunn'd

Oh don't worry, I'm wide awake.. and I'm very aware people are playing with hydrogen. It seems like a great alternative fuel if we had an efficient way of producing it, harnessing sun and wind power to make electricity, which is then used to make Hydrogen through electrolysis is a decent idea.. but nowhere near taking over fossil fuels.

BUT, you have to understand my point: Using Hydrogen and Making Hydrogen are two VERRRY different things.

You cannot make additional power from nothing!! Let me put it really damn straight and simple: I'm gonna break it down for all of you at home physicists trying to make your car more efficient by using energy from the car itself. (Read that last sentence a couple times and see how dumb it sounds)

This is how these kits actually work! Step By Step, Ill hold your hand.

1) If I take energy from my engine
2) Then convert that energy to a different energy (Hydrogen)
3) Then replace that Hydrogen energy back into the engine
4) Did we gain any energy in all the conversions? NO! Absolutely freaking not. (In fact you probably lost some due to real world factors)
5) SO, where does that put us? Well... right back to Number 1, therefore making step 2 and 3 completely useless. Whaaa Really!!?

Now, this is how these kits are <u>claimed</u> to work:

1) If I take energy from my engine
2) Then convert that energy to a different more Powerfulllll energy, ( "Super" Hydrogen )
3) Then replace that "Super" Hydrogen energy back into the engine
4) Now we have boosted MPG!!!
5) Now as this amazing theory suggests, I have taken my 60% efficient engine and now made it 80% efficient, THEREFORE: I should be able to go back to step 1, install a second "Super" Hydrogen Kit, and make my now 80% efficient engine into a 100% efficient engine, further more I would be able to take my 100% efficient engine, install a third kit and make it 120% efficient!!..................... See where I'm going with this??

Perpetual motion ring a bell?
Laws of thermodynamics ring a bell?
Did a few people just decide to forget about that stuff? Or do they even understand?
Don't you think its just a little important that we look at the facts?

Facts? Perpetual Motion.. Isnt that a song by someone? Science? Physics? Naaahhhhhh, thas just a bunch of B/S.. its gotta be the sensors and fuel mixture!!

But Please, keep this part on the DwnLow, don't believe a word I say. I'm actually being paid by the government, large oil corporations, and engineers to spread all this info about Science, and to keep you guys from advancing in this new Super Efficient Hydrogen Technology. The Fate of the entire World rest's on this H-T Thread.

I think your smoking a little too much grass , your suggesting that engineers, and workers in these industries (normal everyday people) are not part of the community? No i guess not, them and the government are all in on it. Looks like its just you man!

Speed--Freak

1. Well ,perpetual motion is a reality. There are more than enough videos on you tube showing engines being ran on nothing but hydrogen made from water.

2. If everyone listened to people like you, we would still be living on a "flat" earth.

3. And open source would have to be the proper format so your life wouldn't be in danger.

Magnetic perpetual motion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAK_V73jNVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDeXTXYFKAY


Modified by Speed--Freak at 11:35 PM 10/25/2008

badluckrex

wow.. i have to do some research on this

zrickety

iTrader: (1)

i don't think anyone is saying you can get free energy, especially from your car.
breaking the covalent bonds in water and creating brown's gas (HHO) is not the same as:
"1) If I take energy from my engine
2) Then convert that energy to a different energy (Hydrogen)
3) Then replace that Hydrogen energy back into the engine"

there is no 'energy conversion.' at best you are changing the physical state of the water. you are simply breaking molecular bonds in the water, then taking this perfectly EXPLOSIVE gas (2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen molecules) and adding it to combustion. the HHO gas becomes the additional fuel source! and it comes from water, not the car!

think about how much energy is wasted as your alternator just spins. how about regenerative braking? hybrids use it. there is more than one way to power a hydrolysis setup. fact is that we waste all kinds of physical and thermal energy driving around that is never recovered.

do you think that making the atom bomb requires MEGATONS of energy to build?? no. can you set water on fire? no. can you add a little electricity to water and make a stoiciometric gas? yes. does it burn better, cleaner and faster than petroleum? yes. are there people that try it and don't see any improvement? sure. does it take sensor or ecu changes to make the most of this additive? yes.

it is not the same as gasoline, and burning HHO gas in your engine is not breaking the laws of physics.

Speed--Freak

Thank you.

sir4doorking

good luck bro this sounds good

mario_pic

lol i know my grammer is not good but its not my fault lol i got adhd so when i think of somthing to say i type it fast but i for get it as i type its a pain in the *** my short term is bad thats y also if u want the hydrogen gen to work u whould need to isolate the anode and cathod because one makes hydrogen the other makes oxygen u can only use one gas or the other to get the full usage of it when u mix the 2 and put them under compression it forms water thats the main problem but if ur useing the gas to make a cuting torch u can form more gas if the tanks under vac it will force the bubles to rise faster the faster thay form the faster fresh ones can form what i have done was compress a hours worth or gas and put it in to a old braze torch it works well and it also forms water on the object ur welding its sweet

stunn'd

You need to stop watching videos on youtube and have a good read through this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion. And oh yes I forgot, it was all the religious followers that proved the world was round. Not the physicists, how silly of me, duhh.

Wow.. you obviously and completely have no idea. I don't even know why im bothering.

You can call it whatever the hell you want... But "breaking the covalent bonds in water and creating brown's gas (HHO)" requires electricity. Got it? That process requires ELECTRICITY. It does not magically happen without Electricity.. Ok?

Now where does that electricity come from? Well unless your car is plugged into a 120v electrical outlet, It comes from your alternator!!! and how does your alternator make that electricity you ask? By using power from the engine!! Your alternator is a type of transducer, it converts one form of energy (mechanical in this situation) to another (electrical).

"Think about how much energy is wasted as your alternator just spins." lol, how about none? think about how much energy your alternator uses when its drawing electrical current, that little pulley wheel becomes harder to spin, it puts a load on your engine.

You don't understand the very principle. No where did I state that you cant use hydrogen as a fuel... What i did state is that the energy used to make the hydrogen will be robbed from the energy you already had in the first place. And when you use that Hydrogen you made as a fuel, your only just putting back the energy that you took.

Regenerative braking: "A regenerative brake is a mechanism that reduces vehicle speed by converting some of its kinetic energy into another useful form of energy. This captured energy is then stored for future use or fed back into a power system for use by other vehicles." Sounds like to me like "wasted energy" being converted into "useful energy"... placing a load on your engine through the alternator is not harnessing "wasted energy", its stealing energy that's already useful... Do you still not understand the concept?


"Do you think that making the atom bomb requires MEGATONS of energy to build?? no."

Welll.....

"When you split an atom you're actually destroying that atom. Once the process is complete you don't have the same atom you started with - instead the atom is gone, and you have a surplus of energy.

And for the other type of nuclear reaction - fusion - you actually fuse two hydrogen atoms into one helium atom, so you end up with a different form of matter than what you started with. THAT is where the energy comes from.

See the difference?"

"Fission reactions have nothing to do with chemistry. Fission power takes advantage of nuclear physics. Chemistry is like reconfiguring lego blocks into different arrays, while fission is like smashing the blocks with a hammer."

Your completely right, burning HHO gas in your vehicle does not break any laws, absolutely none! BUT, the claims do...

I could go on and on and on and on and on until you prove me wrong with real hard evidence, not a youtube video that some douche made in his backyard.

Now don't get me completely wrong, I understand that HHO is cleaner burning, possibly provides better emissions, prolonged engine life, etc. But all these claims of doubling your engine milage from all these scammers is just complete B/S!

zrickety

iTrader: (1)

if we use electricity that equals the amperage most people use to power amps and subs, and we make HHO gas from water instead, there can be a real benefit.
that's all i'm saying.

electricity is like a CATALYST, and the HHO has a SYNERGISTIC effect on combustion.

those are real concepts...do you understand that we can actually improve the efficiency of our engines?? it's not hard. look at how much difference in mpg we get by doing or not doing maintenance and tune-ups. it can be like night and day and we're just talking about filters, electrodes and plastic parts.
nevermind actually improving something more tangible like combustion that happens a thousand times a minute in every cylinder

stunn'd

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zrickety &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if we use electricity that equals the amperage most people use to power amps and subs, and we make HHO gas from water instead, there can be a real benefit.
that's all i'm saying.

electricity is like a CATALYST, and the HHO has a SYNERGISTIC effect on combustion.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Speakers are transducers as well. The electricity used to power amps and subs is converted to sound wave energy.. Your engine does not gain it back. If I were to play bass all day long while driving, my mpg would suffer. Now if your making HHO, and you add that used energy back, you are NOT gaining anything. Im sorry.. you still dont understand?

And the electricity would not be the catalyst, an additional substance added to the water like salt or baking soda would be

"A catalyst does not change the amount of energy released or required for a reaction, it simply reduces the energy maxima, which means the reaction needs less energy to get started, however, the net energy released or required stays the same.

That's how thermodynamics works. What is often the case in these 'fueled by water' things is there is a 'catalyst' that is actually a reactant and that is where the energy comes from, of course as a reactant it all gets used up and must be replaced."




Modified by stunn'd at 10:35 PM 10/26/2008

zrickety

iTrader: (1)

i've got your thermodynamics right here! lol. maybe catalyst is not the best way to describe electricity with HHO. it's like you are saying that no matter what i do to my car, i can never change it's output, which is crap. i can bolt on 1 of a million different products that can increase air flow, intake psi, decrease drag, rolling resistance, whatever...they all have an impact, some on efficiency and mpg. hypermiling increases mpg just by driving habits, do you really think i can't get improvement by burning hydrogen? the few amps of power to make it are negligible and won't kill my mileage. i'll be happy to post 'hard' data for all you non-believers when i have it, but right now paramedic school is consuming the majority of my time

stunn'd

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zrickety &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'll be happy to post 'hard' data for all you non-believers when i have it, but right now paramedic school is consuming the majority of my time </TD></TR></TABLE>

Alright, Ill be waiting. And I hope you prove me wrong, because so far the only "proof" ive seen is the testimony's from the same guys willing to sell you the plans.

I shall say no more, as if I haven't already wasted enough time in this thread.

zrickety

iTrader: (1)

these guys are believers:
http://blog.wired.com/cars/200....html