cptmoney

So for the past day and a half, I've been chipping away at my very first (and likely LAST!) timing belt job. Ugh.

I bought the Haynes/Chiltons/Eric the Car Guy viddie - read through them/watched them with fine tooth comb.

Read TouringAccord's post on how to do the job (well done, btw).

Walked through the job with meticulous attention to detail (or so I thought)....and finally finished the button-up this morning at about 4:30 AM Couldn't wait to fire it up - so I kicked her over, and SHAZAAM! Started right up and just purred.

I let her warm up to verify the coolant levels, took her around the block - and was so ecstatic. Way to go, ME. Just saved $500!

Then I crawled down under the car the check everything out more closely....and sure enough, there's oil coming from the lower timing belt cover. Dangit.

Am I right on this - there's only three places that it could be coming from to be on the inside of the lower timing cover - cam seal, balance shaft seal, or the crank seal - right? What a bummer.

Now I'm out of time, and desperately need the car. I imagine I'll end up spending the same amount of money to swap the seals and I would have for the timing belt. Awesome.

It's got to be the seals, right? Where else could it come from to get in there?

Furthermore, it's got to be broken COMPLETELY down to get to the seals, right? All the pulleys/gears will have to be yanked to get at those seals.

What a bummer. I'm so done with this project. I hate it when crap doesn't work out like it's supposed to.

Any words of wisdom? Parting thoughts before I go soak the car in gasoline?

Lost Again

Don't forget the match.

Did you replace the seals/o-rings when doing the work?

Is it possable the VC is leaking and the oil is running down?

djkurious

Add some dye to the oil, take her around the block a couple of times and take pictures.
Possibly the valve cover gasket.

cptmoney

I replaced (inadequately so, obviously) the cam seal, crank seal, and balance shaft seal.

I looked over the valve cover as soon as I noticed it - but I don't think there's any way a valve cover leak could get inside the lower cover. I could be wrong, but that's what i was guessing from looking.

That was my first thought/hope - but it seems unlikely, doesn't it?

NerfGunner420

if the camshaft seal is leaking then yes it can get to the lower cover. gravity

NerfGunner420

or balance shaft seal. that is why i never put timing belt covers back on until the car has gone thru 4 heat cycles. but its ok you are new at this and its ok we all make mistakes. just remove the timing covers and see if you can see where its coming from

cptmoney

You run it with the covers off? I'm not sure I'd have the timing set just right.....would there be a way to check it? Might be a good idea to do that.

What do you mean four heat cycles? Run it from cold to hot four times? All with no covers on?

cptmoney

Tearing into the top cover this afternoon to see if there's something obvious. I'm guessing it's going to be balance shaft seal.....just guessing.

I had a really tough time getting it out. May have scratched the "face" of the seal surface area where the seal sets up against the engine block.

If that's the case, what are my options? Am I screwed? Can it be fixed?

Furthermore, I know the seals didn't get onto the shaft 100% square. For instance, the upper portion of the seal might be in 1/16" deeper that the lower portion - or vice versa. Does that make sense?

I'll pop a few pics once I'm inside and let you know what I'm seeing. Thanks in advance for all the help. I'm in a mess now....

cptmoney

OK - so I yanked the valve cover and the upper timing cover.

Here's the valve cover:









I saw no oil running down the side, down the back, into the side covers - nothing. I think the valve cover can be scratched off the list of potential leaks. Also, among those photos are a few of the cam seal and the cover that attaches right below it (over the top of the water pump). It, too, looks to be dry. I saw no oil anywhere up near there - at all.

Next up: the balance shaft and seal (and my newly-installed seal retaining clip!) -

Here are a few pics from top, looking down onto the balance shaft and seal:






Notice the tiny scratches on the outside of the seal opening? Yep - those are mine. I did those while yanking the original seal (which, btw, looked to be in PERFECT condition. Grrrrrr!).

If you look closely - and I did! - there's no sign of oil on the shaft, nor under the shaft coming from the seal. At least, that's what it LOOKS like. Again, this is just a quick and dirty look from the top with nothing but the top side timing cover removed. Might be a different scene once I'm down inside of the ol' girl.

So - this leads me to believe that the leak is likely coming from the crank seal. That's the big boy down below. I know this one sort of "wobbled" into place, bc I didn't have a socket or anything else big enough to tap it into place, so I just tapped around the perimeter with a socket and extension, slowly tapping it into place. I'm hoping that's all I'm dealing with. Sucks about the re-teardown, but if it's a straightforward fix, that's ok. I'll chalk it up to learning.

I'm going to lay the valve cover back in place and see if I can't fire her up. I'll keep an eye on the cam seal as well as the balance shaft seal. Hopefully they'll be clean, leading me straight to the crank seal.

I saw NO oil on the belts, timing or balance. It's just a matter of time, thought - right? Eventually it's got to find it's way to the belts.....but I'm hoping to strike first.

Any thoughts, anyone? Again - thanks for all your input.

holmesnmanny

Did you use aftermarket seals ?

cptmoney

Made by Dayco. Purchased from Rock Auto.

NerfGunner420

after a timing belt job i leave the timing belt covers off and let the car heat up and let the cooling fans turn on a few times 4 is my number. after everything checks out i put the timing covers back on

holmesnmanny

Any time you use aftermarket seals on anything you need to put some grease on the inner lip of the seal so they will breakin properly on the first start up. If you don't, you run the risk of the seal tearing upon first start up because of it being dry.

Honda seals always come pregreased so they don't need to be greased.

Not sure if this is what happened to you but it's possible.

cptmoney

The seal kit I purchased had some lube included; I coated the inside (shaft side) and outside of the seal with it.

I'm going to get the replacement seals, along with a new set of belts, and be ready to crack it all open again this weekend. Not really much I can do until I get back in there and look around. With any luck, it's just a bad crank seal. I'll pop in a new one and reassemble.....and be down the road.

holmesnmanny

dont do anything to the outside of the seal you want that nice and dry...its not supposed to move

94 accord typeR

get in there tap the seal in FULLY and wipe the area clean if there is new oil in the area then there is another leak

cptmoney

Hey 94 - can you clarify a bit for me?

Take it apart, seat the seal COMPLETELY (meaning, tap it in until it bottoms out), wipe it down, reassemble it all - then fire it up....watching for any signs of leaks? Am I understanding you correctly?

Might be worth a shot - what's the worst that can happen?

I'm going to hold off on all of that, however, until I have a set of replacement seals in hand. There's just too much work involved to get that far into it and have it all leak. Don't you think?

UNLESS - do you think I can seat the seal without yanking the belt and the crankshaft timing gear? Do you think I could reach around (or through) the gear and knock that seal down to the very bottom of the seal pocket?

In that case, I would think that a guy could get in and out somewhat quickly (relatively speaking, of course - maybe a few hours from beginning to end). Maybe torn down, seal seated up, then reassembled (or better yet just run it opened up as suggested by Nerf) and watch for leaks. I'm wondering how all of that would work. If you didn't have to mess with the belts or the setting of the timing, it might be pretty quick.

along those lines, can I get the lower timing cover off without yanking the power steering pump and alternator? I know the belts have to come off, and they're really not that big of a deal - but to yank them adds another step or two. Nevermind; even as I type this I realize how much of a whiner all that makes me sound like. Haha. I'll just yank 'em and take care of my own mess. Sheesh - what a crybaby!

cptmoney

I'm ticked off about this whole thing. CRAPBALLS!

Taking it over to a good friend who's a mechanic by trade; he's going to help me crack into it to determine just what's going on. I'm out of time with it....gotta get her back together. Can't live without the car for one single day right now, so I'm calling in some backup!

holmesnmanny

Ok, bud, take it easy.

It's not really that complicated. I think maybe a combination of things contributed.

For the seals, it's best to lightly dab your finger around the outside of the seal with oil. You don't need much at all, just to slightly make it easier to slide on. Then put some grease around the inner lip, and I put a tad bit on the shaft as well. For the crank seal, you will use a socket that is the size of the seal, put it around the seal and gently tap the socket which will push the seal in. For the balance shaft seal, it should slide in fairly easy. You will note the retainer, it's there because the seal likes to pop out.

If it were me I would really take a hard look at how much you scratched the shaft. I suppose if it's really bad, you can get some rtv and gently put a really really thin amount on the scatch, only if you can feel with your fingers that it's somewhat deep, and let it cure for about 4 hours before putting the seal in. I've never done this but it would be what I would do depending on the scratch.

You want the seals to be flush with the block, that's all. Using a socket that goes over the outside of the seal, it will simply stop when it's flush.

For the balance shaft, you won't have any room to get a socket in there, so you can put the old seal over the new seal and tap the old seal in a criss cross formation which will push the new seal in.

cptmoney

OK - here's the update...basically, I'm an idiot.

Popped off the lower cover yesterday. Here's where I went wrong:




Kind of tough to see in these pics, but at the bottom of the balance shaft, you can see a healthy scratch. Yep - I own that.

So, my buddy the wrench helped me take some super fine emery cloth to it, doing our best to file it down. We popped a new seal in place, ran it with the cover off....and didn't see any leaks. Then we took it on a 30 mile drive or so, and still no leaks. He (the wrench) thought it was a pretty good scratch, though...and wasn't sure it would hold. I'm keeping my fingers crossed at this point.

Because he has access to all that cool estimating mechanic software stuff, I had him check on replacing the shaft - just in case. Calls for almost 11 hours! YIKES!! Trying to save a few hundo might end up costing me close to $1500. Awesome. Talk about learning your lessons. The next time I'm near those seals I'll treat them with more care!

I'm just going to drive it for a few days and keep an eye on it to see what develops. With any luck, he was able to soften that gouge up enough to seal. Hopefully. The car has too much life still in it for me to muck it up like that!

Thanks for all your patience with my panic and ranting.

Now - next on the list.....rear struts. Where should I begin? Time to do some more reading!