96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
11-07-2011, 04:20 PM
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96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
I have a 1996 Honda Accord LX 2.2l which will not start sometimes. Car will not prime fuel pump for the 2 seconds after key turns to on position after a warm sunny day. Replaced the main relay like everyone else with this problem...twice as a matter of fact...but car still cranks when it wants to. Started troubleshooting everything and found out I am missing the switching ground coming from the ECM to pull in the relay. Does anyone know what tells the ECM that everything is ok to switch the ground on this pin? Don't know if I have a bad ECM or another sensor which is going bad keeping the ECM from output. I have replaced the battery cables that were corroded with new factory positive and negative cables as I thought it was a ground problem. Changed the main relay twice with new ones. Replaced neutral safety switch (wife had poured coke down inside at some point). After car primes runs fine which leads me to believe I don't have a bad ignition switch. If you leave the switch on the longest you have to wait before it primes is 5 minutes tops. Suddenly pump primes and runs fine. Need a few pointers...Thanks...
11-07-2011, 05:25 PM
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Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
No codes? If it were a bad sensor (or ECM) I would think you would have a check engine light code when you jumper the service port. (sorry, you said '96) Plug in a scanner and see what the computer is seeing.
Could it be that you have a bad bulb in your CEL and are not being alerted? Grab a scanner and see if your answer is not there.
Could it be that you have a bad bulb in your CEL and are not being alerted? Grab a scanner and see if your answer is not there.
11-08-2011, 12:02 PM
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Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Let me clarify...The check engine light stays on until the fuel pump primes. At the moment the pump starts to prime, the main relay pulls in due to the grounding of main relay pin #8 which is switched low by the ECM, the D4 light comes on, fuel pump primes for 2 seconds and then the fuel pump stops running and check engine light goes off. During the time it will not start the check engine light stays on...fuel pump does not prime..which as you know, car spins but won't crank. No codes when it won't crank or after. When its cold outside it cranks without any hesitation(fuel pump primes instantly). The warmer it gets outside the longer you have to wait. Noticed it doesn't have anything to do with engine temperature as it will restart every time after you initially get it cranked regardless of outdoor temp. So my question still is does anyone know what tells the ECM to switch the output low to pin 8 on the main relay?
11-21-2011, 11:59 AM
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Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
My car does the same thing! I replaced the starting cause it had went out, it was working fine for a few days and the problem started happening....my friend replaced the rely censor but still nothing.....what do I do to fix this? could it be the battery or ignition switch? PLEASE HELP!
11-21-2011, 03:23 PM
#5
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Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Newbie here and having a similar problem. 95 Accord Dx auto will start and run for about 2 or 3 seconds and then quits. I've changed the main relay but that did not
work. It will start normally sometimes and will continue to crank all day. The next day its right back to the same problem. When it does crank it runs and drives normally. Weather temps does not seem to have any effects either.
work. It will start normally sometimes and will continue to crank all day. The next day its right back to the same problem. When it does crank it runs and drives normally. Weather temps does not seem to have any effects either.
11-21-2011, 04:18 PM
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Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
RuleMkr,
It sounds like you are dealing with a fuel problem. Other then the Main Relay, electrical components typically don't do the on/off thing (although I am told an ignitor can sometimes show these symptoms.) They go bad and they stay bad. So I would start with the fuel system. When the car will not start (and the engine is cold - battery disconnected. FIRE=BAD) loosen the output bolt on your fuel filter up against the firewall or the odd looking bolt on top of the fuel rail. If fuel does not spew out, then you have low/no pressure. Either the fuel filter is clogged (change it. It is cheap and likely has not been done in a long time) or the fuel pump is not delivering fuel. (It can run/spin and not actually pressurize the line.) That will tell you what you need to look at next; but it is the place to start. If you do have fuel pressure all the way to the pistons, then read below about checking for spark. No spark means you need to test the ignitor inside your distributor with a test light or meter.
Nessaruelas,
You need to do a step by step diagnosis. There are way too many variables to throw parts at it, or for us to guess. Here are a few things to get you started.
There are three 'systems' that you need to check and then confirm they are all happening at the right time. Electrical, Fuel, and air. Then check your timing.
The air is easy. Pop the air filter and check its condition. If it looks dirty change it. Let your engine breathe is one of the easiest and cheapest maintenance items to do. After this make sure the Throttle body moves freely. That is the plate on the other end of the hose that connects to the air filter box. Since this is likely not your problem, I won't go into further detail.
Next is spark. You asked about your battery. Have it tested. Pull it out of the car and take it to a good parts house. They can charge then test it, as well as do a load test. I battery can have 12V of charge but not enough juice to crank the engine. Ask them specifically to load test it.
Next is check for spark at the spark plug. There is a cheap tool, $5, that connects to your spark plug and into the spark plug wire that will light when the spark goes to the spark plug. An inductive timing light will do the same thing. More on a timing light in a moment. Test all 4 cylinders. Does the light come on each? If all are dark, then follow back to the Distributor. Here it is going to get a little tricky. In addition to the 4 wires attached to the top, you have a coil that creates high voltage, and an ignitor under the Distributor Cap. There is also a rotor that spins. You can take a multimeter and test each of these components to find the break in the current, or you can replace the distributor as a whole. Before you do this make sure your battery is good and your Main Relay under the dashboard driver's side is not the issue.
If you do have good power from the battery to the main relay and to the starter; and you have good spark at the plugs, then you can rule out the electrical system. Go to the fuel system next.
You have already ruled out the main relay in the electrical checks. Now verify you have good gas in the tank at least an 1/8 of a tank. Turn the key to the ON position (just light up the dash, don't crank.) Do you hear the fuel pump hummm or whirl for 2-3 seconds. Open the gas cap and listen close while someone else turns the key if you need to be sure.
Next check for pressure as stated to Rulemkr. Check for fuel pressure at the rail and at the fuel filter. If you are getting pressure, then pull the spark plugs and turn the key to ON, again. You should smell and hear fuel being pulsed into the cylinders. Don't crank the engine unless the plugs and wires are grounded to the engine. Just have someone operate the gas pedal while you stay close to the plug holes.
If you have air, spark, and fuel; then you need to check if the engine is timed correctly. There is a timing belt that controls the order and speed of all these systems. They can stretch and jump the gear that runs them, which throws off the timing. In extreme cases, they can break. That is bad news, because it can ruin the valves in your engine.
To check timing, you will need to pull the spark plugs, so the engine has no compression in the cylinders (open port.) Put a 19mm wrench on the power steering pulley and turn the engine. It should move freely. On the engine block there is a square hole. It should have a rubber plug in it. Pull the plug and you will see your flywheel. also there will be a metal "V" above it. Keep turning the engine until you see three marks stamped into the wheel. Line up the center mark between the metal V as you look down into the hole.
With the mark lined up, pull the distributor cap. The rotor that spins around under the cap has a 'lobe' on one side with a metal contact. This metal contact should be under the number one cylinder wire, which has an A stamped on the top of the cap where the plug wire attaches. Basically, it should point towards the front bumper. If it points towards the firewall the distributor was put in backwards. If the rotor is not under the post for cylinder 1, then the timing belt is likely stretch and jumped a tooth. If the rotor does not spin at all when the engine is rotated then the timing belt is broken and needs to be replaced.
Next with rotor confirmed in the general direction, set the timing with a timing light. If you don't have one they are not expensive for a basic one. $20 bucks at Harbor Freight. Much more if you want a professional model. Put the plugs back in the bore, dist. cap back in place, make sure there is nothing in the fans or pulleys. (that wrench on the power steering pulley has to go.)
Put a wire in the service connector plug in the ECM (car's computer under the dash against the wall in the passenger's foot well.) Crank the engine and see if the light strobes when the marks align. If they don't the distributor housing (not the cap) needs to be loosened and rotated until they do. The engine should be running rough or at least trying to catch at this point.
Let us know what the symptoms are and what make model and year is. Also any recent changes would be helpful. Was it worked on recently? A stereo installed? Started running rough, etc...
Get back to us with results or ask questions.
It sounds like you are dealing with a fuel problem. Other then the Main Relay, electrical components typically don't do the on/off thing (although I am told an ignitor can sometimes show these symptoms.) They go bad and they stay bad. So I would start with the fuel system. When the car will not start (and the engine is cold - battery disconnected. FIRE=BAD) loosen the output bolt on your fuel filter up against the firewall or the odd looking bolt on top of the fuel rail. If fuel does not spew out, then you have low/no pressure. Either the fuel filter is clogged (change it. It is cheap and likely has not been done in a long time) or the fuel pump is not delivering fuel. (It can run/spin and not actually pressurize the line.) That will tell you what you need to look at next; but it is the place to start. If you do have fuel pressure all the way to the pistons, then read below about checking for spark. No spark means you need to test the ignitor inside your distributor with a test light or meter.
Nessaruelas,
You need to do a step by step diagnosis. There are way too many variables to throw parts at it, or for us to guess. Here are a few things to get you started.
There are three 'systems' that you need to check and then confirm they are all happening at the right time. Electrical, Fuel, and air. Then check your timing.
The air is easy. Pop the air filter and check its condition. If it looks dirty change it. Let your engine breathe is one of the easiest and cheapest maintenance items to do. After this make sure the Throttle body moves freely. That is the plate on the other end of the hose that connects to the air filter box. Since this is likely not your problem, I won't go into further detail.
Next is spark. You asked about your battery. Have it tested. Pull it out of the car and take it to a good parts house. They can charge then test it, as well as do a load test. I battery can have 12V of charge but not enough juice to crank the engine. Ask them specifically to load test it.
Next is check for spark at the spark plug. There is a cheap tool, $5, that connects to your spark plug and into the spark plug wire that will light when the spark goes to the spark plug. An inductive timing light will do the same thing. More on a timing light in a moment. Test all 4 cylinders. Does the light come on each? If all are dark, then follow back to the Distributor. Here it is going to get a little tricky. In addition to the 4 wires attached to the top, you have a coil that creates high voltage, and an ignitor under the Distributor Cap. There is also a rotor that spins. You can take a multimeter and test each of these components to find the break in the current, or you can replace the distributor as a whole. Before you do this make sure your battery is good and your Main Relay under the dashboard driver's side is not the issue.
If you do have good power from the battery to the main relay and to the starter; and you have good spark at the plugs, then you can rule out the electrical system. Go to the fuel system next.
You have already ruled out the main relay in the electrical checks. Now verify you have good gas in the tank at least an 1/8 of a tank. Turn the key to the ON position (just light up the dash, don't crank.) Do you hear the fuel pump hummm or whirl for 2-3 seconds. Open the gas cap and listen close while someone else turns the key if you need to be sure.
Next check for pressure as stated to Rulemkr. Check for fuel pressure at the rail and at the fuel filter. If you are getting pressure, then pull the spark plugs and turn the key to ON, again. You should smell and hear fuel being pulsed into the cylinders. Don't crank the engine unless the plugs and wires are grounded to the engine. Just have someone operate the gas pedal while you stay close to the plug holes.
If you have air, spark, and fuel; then you need to check if the engine is timed correctly. There is a timing belt that controls the order and speed of all these systems. They can stretch and jump the gear that runs them, which throws off the timing. In extreme cases, they can break. That is bad news, because it can ruin the valves in your engine.
To check timing, you will need to pull the spark plugs, so the engine has no compression in the cylinders (open port.) Put a 19mm wrench on the power steering pulley and turn the engine. It should move freely. On the engine block there is a square hole. It should have a rubber plug in it. Pull the plug and you will see your flywheel. also there will be a metal "V" above it. Keep turning the engine until you see three marks stamped into the wheel. Line up the center mark between the metal V as you look down into the hole.
With the mark lined up, pull the distributor cap. The rotor that spins around under the cap has a 'lobe' on one side with a metal contact. This metal contact should be under the number one cylinder wire, which has an A stamped on the top of the cap where the plug wire attaches. Basically, it should point towards the front bumper. If it points towards the firewall the distributor was put in backwards. If the rotor is not under the post for cylinder 1, then the timing belt is likely stretch and jumped a tooth. If the rotor does not spin at all when the engine is rotated then the timing belt is broken and needs to be replaced.
Next with rotor confirmed in the general direction, set the timing with a timing light. If you don't have one they are not expensive for a basic one. $20 bucks at Harbor Freight. Much more if you want a professional model. Put the plugs back in the bore, dist. cap back in place, make sure there is nothing in the fans or pulleys. (that wrench on the power steering pulley has to go.)
Put a wire in the service connector plug in the ECM (car's computer under the dash against the wall in the passenger's foot well.) Crank the engine and see if the light strobes when the marks align. If they don't the distributor housing (not the cap) needs to be loosened and rotated until they do. The engine should be running rough or at least trying to catch at this point.
Let us know what the symptoms are and what make model and year is. Also any recent changes would be helpful. Was it worked on recently? A stereo installed? Started running rough, etc...
Get back to us with results or ask questions.
Last edited by TejasNW; 11-21-2011 at 05:42 PM.
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11-22-2011, 05:31 AM
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Went out this morning and the sucker started right up. Will wait a while and will try it again.
Update: Tried it 30 min later and no start. I loosen the bolt on the fuel rail and barely got a trickle; however if I reconnect battery and turn the key to the position right before cranking I can hear fuel
pump and gas spews from the fuel rail. I re-tightened bolt on fuel rail and it does the same as before. (run for 2 or 3 senconds and stops). It seems as if it burns the little fuel that is pumped when the fuel pump primes and then runs out of gas. I did check for spark as well and it's good.
I will change fuel filter first and see what happens.
Update: Tried it 30 min later and no start. I loosen the bolt on the fuel rail and barely got a trickle; however if I reconnect battery and turn the key to the position right before cranking I can hear fuel
pump and gas spews from the fuel rail. I re-tightened bolt on fuel rail and it does the same as before. (run for 2 or 3 senconds and stops). It seems as if it burns the little fuel that is pumped when the fuel pump primes and then runs out of gas. I did check for spark as well and it's good.
I will change fuel filter first and see what happens.
Last edited by RULEMKR; 11-22-2011 at 07:24 AM.
11-30-2011, 07:43 PM
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Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Update:
My car has been starting fine. It has been turning on with no delay for the past week.
To answer one of your questions,yes I have had work done on the car recently. The problem first started about a 2 months ago and a friend of my changed the Relay censor thinking that was the problem....once we changed it, the starter went out. So I had the starter replaced with a new one. Since then it has hesitated to start a few times but not as much as before. It really seems to have a mind of its own lol. Like I had mentioned, the car has been starting fine with no problems at all.
My Honda is a 96 Accord ex 4cylinder.
Thank you so much for all your suggestions, I will test them over the weekend just to make sure everything is in order
My car has been starting fine. It has been turning on with no delay for the past week.
To answer one of your questions,yes I have had work done on the car recently. The problem first started about a 2 months ago and a friend of my changed the Relay censor thinking that was the problem....once we changed it, the starter went out. So I had the starter replaced with a new one. Since then it has hesitated to start a few times but not as much as before. It really seems to have a mind of its own lol. Like I had mentioned, the car has been starting fine with no problems at all.
My Honda is a 96 Accord ex 4cylinder.
Thank you so much for all your suggestions, I will test them over the weekend just to make sure everything is in order
12-03-2011, 02:55 PM
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Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Update:
Car was acting up more and more frequently...I was able to troubleshoot and everything I checked pointed to the ECM...waited until I found one on Ebay in my price range and bought it taking a chance this was the culprit....plugged it up and has been working flawlessly for two weeks....tore down old ECM and found no noticeable problems but after pulling the capacitors found them out of tolerance...I have ordered the new caps to see if if I can get my old ECM working...if not...no biggie...$37.50 computer was not a bad deal... Moral of the story: Always listen to your gut......hope this helps others with the same issue...
Car was acting up more and more frequently...I was able to troubleshoot and everything I checked pointed to the ECM...waited until I found one on Ebay in my price range and bought it taking a chance this was the culprit....plugged it up and has been working flawlessly for two weeks....tore down old ECM and found no noticeable problems but after pulling the capacitors found them out of tolerance...I have ordered the new caps to see if if I can get my old ECM working...if not...no biggie...$37.50 computer was not a bad deal... Moral of the story: Always listen to your gut......hope this helps others with the same issue...
12-14-2011, 10:06 AM
#13
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Actually I just got around to it due to injuryon my shoulder, however changing the fuel filter did not help. It started up 2 days flawlessly before the filter was put on but I had it installed anyway. Started up right after the filter was installed as well. Next day it went right back to the same problem and same symptoms.
12-14-2011, 03:20 PM
#14
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Update:tore down old ECM and found no noticeable problems but after pulling the capacitors found them out of tolerance...I have ordered the new caps to see if if I can get my old ECM working...if not...no biggie...$37.50 computer was not a bad deal... hope this helps others with the same issue...
Edit: Where the caps shorted?
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12-21-2011, 06:38 AM
#15
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Update:
Car was acting up more and more frequently...I was able to troubleshoot and everything I checked pointed to the ECM...waited until I found one on Ebay in my price range and bought it taking a chance this was the culprit....plugged it up and has been working flawlessly for two weeks....tore down old ECM and found no noticeable problems but after pulling the capacitors found them out of tolerance...I have ordered the new caps to see if if I can get my old ECM working...if not...no biggie...$37.50 computer was not a bad deal... Moral of the story: Always listen to your gut......hope this helps others with the same issue...
Car was acting up more and more frequently...I was able to troubleshoot and everything I checked pointed to the ECM...waited until I found one on Ebay in my price range and bought it taking a chance this was the culprit....plugged it up and has been working flawlessly for two weeks....tore down old ECM and found no noticeable problems but after pulling the capacitors found them out of tolerance...I have ordered the new caps to see if if I can get my old ECM working...if not...no biggie...$37.50 computer was not a bad deal... Moral of the story: Always listen to your gut......hope this helps others with the same issue...
12-23-2011, 12:23 AM
#18
MM Gruppe B
Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Originally Posted by techauto
ECU code 15: Code 15 is listed as an error in the "Ignition Output Signal." If you have this code it means that the ECU has found the Ignition module (igniter) signal is not received by the ECU which means that the igniter is dead, has a loose connection or has failed intermittently. The ECU looks for the 10V reference signal from the igniter. If the car won't start because of this code then check for a loose connection or go to section 4 on this page and be ready to replace the igniter.
12-23-2011, 10:07 AM
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Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
see if you have fuel pressure and check if your pump is getting power using a test light and while your doing just that wiggle it a little see how easy it is to break the circuit
12-27-2011, 03:46 PM
#20
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
12-27-2011, 03:49 PM
#21
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
I know for sure the pump is getting power. I loosend the fuel rail bolt to see if I was getting fuel there and I was. I do not have a guage. I can also hear pump prime in the 2 position.
01-17-2012, 11:55 AM
#23
Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Update:
Car was acting up more and more frequently...I was able to troubleshoot and everything I checked pointed to the ECM...waited until I found one on Ebay in my price range and bought it taking a chance this was the culprit....plugged it up and has been working flawlessly for two weeks....tore down old ECM and found no noticeable problems but after pulling the capacitors found them out of tolerance...I have ordered the new caps to see if if I can get my old ECM working...if not...no biggie...$37.50 computer was not a bad deal... Moral of the story: Always listen to your gut......hope this helps others with the same issue...
Car was acting up more and more frequently...I was able to troubleshoot and everything I checked pointed to the ECM...waited until I found one on Ebay in my price range and bought it taking a chance this was the culprit....plugged it up and has been working flawlessly for two weeks....tore down old ECM and found no noticeable problems but after pulling the capacitors found them out of tolerance...I have ordered the new caps to see if if I can get my old ECM working...if not...no biggie...$37.50 computer was not a bad deal... Moral of the story: Always listen to your gut......hope this helps others with the same issue...
Thanks
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07-18-2013, 02:50 PM
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Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
Let me clarify...The check engine light stays on until the fuel pump primes. At the moment the pump starts to prime, the main relay pulls in due to the grounding of main relay pin #8 which is switched low by the ECM, the D4 light comes on, fuel pump primes for 2 seconds and then the fuel pump stops running and check engine light goes off. During the time it will not start the check engine light stays on...fuel pump does not prime..which as you know, car spins but won't crank. No codes when it won't crank or after. When its cold outside it cranks without any hesitation(fuel pump primes instantly). The warmer it gets outside the longer you have to wait. Noticed it doesn't have anything to do with engine temperature as it will restart every time after you initially get it cranked regardless of outdoor temp. So my question still is does anyone know what tells the ECM to switch the output low to pin 8 on the main relay?
07-19-2013, 04:58 AM
#25
Re: 96 Accord LX Cranks but wont start
94 Accord F22B1. Same stuff. Problems started next morning after cleaning EGR ports, but car ran fine afterward cleaning EGR ports. Got in car to go to work. Won't start. CEL comes on and stays on. No codes are set Could hear pump prime.
Carry a spare master relay and swapped that, no help. Didn't figuire it would.
Went back thru EGR procedure to make sure I hadn't missed anything, no help
Troubleshoot per Honda manual "CEL stays on", unhooking MAP, TPS and EGR lift individually to see if it would clear CEL, nothing difinitve or consistant. Whole system was just acting weird.
Could begin to smell a burnt electrical smell in cabin. Sniffed around but couldn't pinpoint. Had been really wet lately and thought that maybe it was some weird wet carpet smell, but still had my doubts.
Turned key on, hear the pump prime, CEL stays on, leave key on and wait about 5 secs and pump would prime again, then CEL would go out and car would start and run like a top. Would start right up after that, but let it sit for an hour and would have to go thru the double prime thing again.
Burnt smell not going away.
Pulled ECU and opened it up and found blown capaciter in circuit board. Replacing ECU and will update. Would post a picture if I knew how, but it was very obvious and source of the smell. Installed another used ECU and problems solved
Carry a spare master relay and swapped that, no help. Didn't figuire it would.
Went back thru EGR procedure to make sure I hadn't missed anything, no help
Troubleshoot per Honda manual "CEL stays on", unhooking MAP, TPS and EGR lift individually to see if it would clear CEL, nothing difinitve or consistant. Whole system was just acting weird.
Could begin to smell a burnt electrical smell in cabin. Sniffed around but couldn't pinpoint. Had been really wet lately and thought that maybe it was some weird wet carpet smell, but still had my doubts.
Turned key on, hear the pump prime, CEL stays on, leave key on and wait about 5 secs and pump would prime again, then CEL would go out and car would start and run like a top. Would start right up after that, but let it sit for an hour and would have to go thru the double prime thing again.
Burnt smell not going away.
Pulled ECU and opened it up and found blown capaciter in circuit board. Replacing ECU and will update. Would post a picture if I knew how, but it was very obvious and source of the smell. Installed another used ECU and problems solved
Last edited by jim31886; 07-25-2013 at 11:17 PM.
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