Surfjunkie44

Pictures on Page# 5 - Post# 117!

I have been out of the Honda scene for many years, but finally purchased a cherished piece of childhood to rejoin the community. I picked up a restored 1991 CRX Si a few weeks ago. The previous owner has splashed a few nice touches - all sashes, seals, etc. have been replaced, body is in excellent condition with fresh paint, and the interior is amazing for a twenty year old car (original seats with no tears). The previous owner also attended to some suspension toys - (squeaky) Energy Suspension master kit, Tokico blues, lowering springs, upper and lower ties, camber kit, wheels and tires - let's just say she's a peach. The peppy little Si motor is just the way I remember her . . . non-VTEC.

I have been lurking for the past few weeks and not really found more than arguments and flaming. I really don't have time for that sort of childishness. However, I am looking for "EXPERIENCED, KNOWLEDGEABLE, AND ARTICULATE" gearheads out there who might be able to point me in the correct direction, not to mention make a few friends with a common passion. With that stated, on to my questions...

Question 1 - JDM C1 vs. a JDM C5...

I'm an all-motor kind of guy. I know turbocharging produces more power, higher capabilities, etc. but all I hear is, "blah, blah, blah". I like all-motor applications and it is my car, and my subjective choice - deal with it. I am open to hear valid arguments for a JDM C1 (1994-1997) vs. a JDM C5 (1996-1997). You also need to know I am a conservative builder - reliability (not racing) is my forte, which leads me to the following. If I purchase the JDM C5, I am not very inclined to do any internals. From my research on the JDM C5, it is Honda harmonized and there is no need for me to piece apart well done engineering just to squeeze nanobites of horsepower. The JDM C1 is another story. Obviously, there are multiple power adders available from cams to intake manifolds, pistons to valves, etc., and that does not even bring in the variable of machine shop work. These parts are all expensive, and in many regards, would simply be playing catchup to what the JDM C5 already has factory. Perhaps some aftermarket parts are better than factory, and perhaps not, but that is another matter to debate.

The complete swap JDM C5 from Hmotorsonline.com is listed at $3900 (plus shipping), while the complete swap JDM C1 is listed at $2899 (plus shipping). My question is simple - is there anyone here who believes $1001 is enough to create a JDM C1 equal or better than an JDM C5? I don't think it's possible, but as I stated, I'm open to hear valid arguments otherwise.

Question 2 - Drive Axles

To my knowledge, the drive axles from a B18C are a direct plug and play for 1989-1991 CRX Si hubs, thus no conversion (half-shaft, etc.) is necessary. Can anyone confirm this as true or not? I apologize, but I have read conflicting statements littering the internet.

Question 3 - Hasport Motor Mounts

When I think Hasport, dollar chimes start ringing in the back of my head, but I am not aware of many competitors with equal quality production. I am willing to hear any recommendation(s) for competitors whose price is comparable and products are quality engineered. By the way, I have read horror stories about high durometer mounts transmitting horrendous engine vibration to the passenger compartment, though I know this can also be attributed to the diameter of the mount. In this regard, I prefer the softer side of things. Please advise.

Question 4 - Hasport EFBHCL Kit

Has anyone used the "EFBHCL" kit from Hasport? If I understand correctly, it allows one to convert a hydraulic transmission to cable transmission. Call me old school, but I always preferred the feel of the cable transmission. Any positive or negative experiences? I'm open to hearing opinions regarding the use of this kit with a B18C as well... I haven't conducted a large amount of research regarding this matter as I just recently discovered the part on their website.

Question 5 - Fuel System

Is the stock CRX Si fuel pump adequate? A Walbro 255 LPH sounds nice, but I don't believe it is necessary at the moment. Any input?

Let's just stick with those five questions for now. I am heading back out into the garage to finish detailing the engine bay. I look forward to hearing your input soon, and thanks for reading all of this if you made it this far. Any additional information regarding this swap is greatly appreciated, especially those tid-bits experienced swappers know are bound to occur. Thanks again.

AlfieRoach

https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-crx-ef-civic-1988-1991-3/detailed-b-series-into-crx-ef-civic-parts-list-more-2769325/

hopefully this helps

Surfjunkie44

I have only read the first few paragraphs and I already love you. Thanks Alfie!

AlfieRoach

No prob im also in the process of getting a b18c but im going with 95 down due to smog purposes cuz in cali getting bar'd is a big part, but after that its smog time. If u have a 96 and up you have to meet obd 2 smog standards, but obd 1 is more forgiving so thats why im gonna stay in the older era. ps make sure u get a good security system for the pride and joy peeps are desperate now a days. take it easy glwb

thiendegigolo

i would say before you move on...just to let you know..neither the C1 or C5 is JDM...thats USDM motors

Surfjunkie44

I plan on stepping down to an OBD I as well, but I live in Florida - no emission tests here. I looked at the OBD II to OBD I conversion harness from Hasport, but it seems over priced. I think I'll simply wire it myself... thankfully, there's Helms. ; )

Surfjunkie44

I am quite well aware of that, Thiendegigolo, as the engine stamps from JDM motors do not include the final numeric coding, but there is a distinct difference between the JDM GSR and JDM Type-R engines; I simply abbreviated such (for typing purposes) by distinguishing the two by their US alphanumeric stamps. I apologize if you were confused by such.

JeffBro

Yeah honestly you don't need that. You have several options.

1) This is the easiest/fastest way to go without spending too much; Rywire sells a kit for about 100 $ that has the ecu plugs for obd 0 to 0bd 1 conversion on the ecu end. This allows you to run a chipped obd1 ecu with the matching base map for whatever motor you have. Then you can just wire up the motor using your obd 0 harness. You will have to remove the resistor box and change about half the plugs and wire in a few sensors but this is the easiest/fastest way to go without spending too much.

2) Cheapest option but more work; go to the junkyard and get some obd1 plugs and solder in all the wires on the ecu. From here you gotta know all the ecu pin outs and wire in everything yourself for the extra sensors. This option will take some time esp if you have never done this type of thing. But its actually not as hard as some might think.

Both options get you the same result in the end

AlfieRoach

yeah the obd 0 to 1 jumper is way easier cheaper and effective also gonna need a dizzy jumper to and in my swap i plan on including a a/f gauge, so you can keep an eye on that a/f ratio tuning purpose and one less headache when it comes to it.

rd91sib18c5r

I had a jdm b18c type r motor with a b16 cable tranny in my 91 si,

easy swap rywire and hasport make it so easy. When I overhauled

the bottom end it spun a bearing and now I used a usdm gsr bottom

with type r head and it feels about the same. Type r camms are way

more aggresive, as far as trannies go I used a cable case and put a

type r lsd in it the open diffs in cable trannies are weak I blew 3 of them.

And yes the mounts are going to shake your fillings loose but you get use to it.

Surfjunkie44

Jeff - I have to agree, the Rywire setup is quite aesthetically pleasing, especially considering the plug and play ease of it. Thanks for the heads up. I recently discovered his website after viewing a K-series swapped CRX he recently completed.

Alfie - I haven't really considered any air/fuel monitoring devices or VTEC control for that matter, but you present a valid point - that headache will eventually present itself. I haven't researched VAFC devices in several years. Would you have any recommendations?

Surfjunkie44

RD - A few questions for you.

So after going through it all, given the chance, would you buy another JDM Type-R or grab a JDM GSR (with an LSD of course), throw in cams, valves, springs, an intake manifold, and call it a day? I am especially curious to hear your input as you have owned and driven this swap before. And thankyou for the transmission heads up - what is your opinion on the Hasport hydraulic to cable conversion?

AlfieRoach

personally ive never tried one myself a vtec controller buddy club cheap price range from what ive seen. Spoon um ive seen them pricey but i dont know the reviews on that. now apexi is pretty much what everyone uses heres one with a good price 115

http://www.hondamarketplace.com/show...ght=apexi+vafc

the power to have a air fuel adjust and vtec too is a good thing to have mainly for tuning purposes but also for drive ability too

rd91sib18c5r

I would get a c5 again for sure, I had a ls swap thats why I kept

it cable. If I did it over I would us the type r tranny with hydro

conversion, very fun car to drive run 13.8 on motor.

Surfjunkie44

I haven't added the numbers, but have read numerous posts (exceeding the triple digits) concerning a JDM B18C1 vs. a JDM B18C5 . . . several repeatedly state, "save $1500 dollars and use that money for the build". I am highly confused by this, but perhaps someone can shed some light - please recall this is for an NA build.

The JDM B18C5 includes better cam springs, more aggressive cams, a short runner intake manifold, forged rods, port and polish work on the intake ports, higher compression pistons, factory LSD, 4.7 final drive, and I'm sure there are a few things I'm leaving out. Even with a tremendous discount, it seems impossible to purchase those mods (or better) for only $1500 dollars. Obviously, one can purchase much more aggressive cams, but I am not seeking a drag strip cam lobe at the stop light. The JDM B18C5 seems a better purchase for a mild build considering all that is included initially, or have I grossly overestimated the value of Honda's engineers?

The money is in the bank, I'm just trying to carefully consider before making this purchase. And for those who might mention it, I am not interested in a K-series engine. It simply doesn't match my desires for this car, but thanks.

rd91sib18c5r

I think you can get power out of the c1 with camms, springs and manifold,

but the gearing on the tranny is better for n/a performance.

I've had b16 and ls gears in my car makes a big differance. The rpms

on the freeway are kinda high just cruising but only 1k higher.

Surfjunkie44

I honestly don't think the power is there with just simple bolt-ons. If that were the case, the ITR wouldn't be renowned with a Red Badge of Honda Racing honor. The gearing ratio is definitely superior with the ITR transmission, especially in the case of the 1998+ spec (which I am now considering because of the final drive ratio as well as the header).

HondaFan56

Surfjunkie please keep this thread updated. I am seriously thinking about purchasing a 88-91 CRX Si and dropping a JDM B18C Type R in it. I've heard good things about hmotorsonline.com from multiple forums but be sure to tell us your buying experience. Maybe start a build thread when you decide on which engine you are going with and post pics up of the CRX! Good Luck!

Surfjunkie44

I am pretty set on the 1996-7 JDM B18C5... after all I've looked at and read from forums to write-ups, dyno's to track times, the JDM ITR engine just seems like what I am looking for, minus a few goodies of course. The best advice I can give you is, "don't listen to me," for lack of a better cliche phrase. Determine what you want out of your build - the best place to start is consider your realistic plans for the vehicle - not dreams.

For example:

My CRX is a daily driver. I don't want to wrench on her constantly. I desire a dependable, yet quick motor. My HP goals for the car are a reasonable 200 whp with a street/highway friendly transmission. For this reason, I have decided to use the 1996-7 spec engine which includes a 4.4 final drive as opposed to the 4.7 in the 1998 and later models. However, I will be purchasing the 1998 spec header as dyno numbers that I have read are negligible in difference for headers that cost $300+. There was only a 2-3 HP gain and 1 TQ difference for the Toda vs. the JDM ITR "Factory" header, yet it costs double the price. I might mention that I also have doubts on the ECU tunes plus all other parts being identical regarding the dyno tests that were available resulting such numbers, but that is different story. My other goal is to bring the car down from 2174 lbs to (as close as I can get) the 1900 lbs marker. I am simply looking to match power and weight with the Lotus Elise for about $30,000 less. Once I begin my build, I will start a new forum discussion.

As far as Hmotorsonline.com, I personally am hesitant to purchase from anyone else. While they are a bit more pricey than some competitors, I have seen, dropped, and swapped four different engines from them that were in phenomenal condition. I have read countless props to them for their high quality product deliveries as well as customer service. In fact, I have not come across a valid complaint regarding them yet. I feel confident spending my hard-earned money with them, but that doesn't mean you should. Do your research, use logical reasoning to draw conclusions, and be wary of your sources. Thorough research is good research. If you ever have any questions, well, find the answers... but if you want a nudge in the right direction, I would be happy to oblige. Hope to see you happy in a Honda soon.

zrickety

iTrader: (1)

sounds like you found a great car and the swap to go with it. please post up as you build it!

Crex167

is there such thing as a JDM Gsr? a gsr was only produce for acura correct?

Surfjunkie44

Crex, you need a little bit of a Honda education. Acura only exists in America - it is a luxury import, hence the leather seats, power features, etc., and the higher price tag. Other notable luxury import companies include Toyota's Lexus, Nissan's Infinity... you get the drift. In Japan, the Acura Integra is the Honda Integra, and there is still a difference between the JDM Honda versions of the submodels, which I unfortunately cannot specifically state as I have never researched it before. The US models were the RS, GS, LS, GSR, and Type-R. I assume a similar series of submodels were available from Honda of Japan. If you really want to learn more, then type "Honda B engine" or "Honda Integra" in the search bar of Wikipedia.org. There is a cornucopia of information there to satisfy your curiosity. Happy reading.

99SiStyle

RD, what cable trans did you put the type-r LSD in?

Surfjunkie44

Yes, I am quoting myself. I do apologize, but for those interested and posterity, I thought this information might be useful. I was bored last night and started adding some numbers but not just random numbers. Here is a cost analysis of building the "Poor Man's Type-R" the right way.

JDM B18C1 vs. JDM B18C5 - 1996-7 (Full swap from Hmotorsonline.com)
$2899 (+$300) vs. $3900

But wait, we're still missing the optional LSD - tack on another $300. So the pricing difference is not $1500, it's more like $700. That number should *put to rest* any ideas that the JDM B18C5 is over-priced vs. a Poor Man's Type-R, but let's continue anyway. The gearing ratio is still not an exact match with the Type-R still having a superior gearing ratio for acceleration.

JDM B18C1 with Optional LSD

1st: 3.230
2nd: 1.900
3rd: 1.360
4th: 1.034
5th: 0.787
Reverse: 3.000
Final Drive: 4.400

JDM B18C5 ratio (1996-7 spec)

1st: 3.230
2nd: 2.105
3rd: 1.458
4th: 1.107
5th: 0.848
Reverse: 3.000
Final Drive: 4.400

Skunk2 Stage 2 Tuner Cams vs. JDM B18C5 factory cams - $550 vs. $300+

Skunk2 Stage 2 Tuner Cams are an improvement over the Type-R cams while remaining streetable - or so they claim. I have read several articles in forums commending these cams, thus my basis for selecting them. I imagine many would opt for a profile such as these. The JDM B18C5 cams are pretty bang for the buck, especially if you happen across a B16B intake cam, which happens to have three degrees more duration than that of the JDM B18C5, but I have heard this is negligible power unless properly tuned.

Springs and Retainers - $350+

Unfortunately, the Poor Man valve train has not been designed to rev so high, so springs and retainers will be required. There is an assortment of different aftermarket companies producing quality springs and retainers. Expect to spend $350+ for quality valve springs and retainers regardless if you purchase OEM or Aftermarket (ie - Ferrea, Portflow, Skunk2, Supertech, blah, blah, blah, etc.).

Manifold - $200+

There are a few options for selecting your manifold. The ITR OEM factory short-runner manifold is available numerous places for as low as $200. Skunk2 also offers a viable option for around $250. But if you are really feeling cheeky, Endyne will custom build you a manifold for, well, I'll just let you talk to Larry himself about that one.

Ugh, I have honestly lost my taste for typing this at the moment because I still must cover:

Port work - $500+
Valves - $200+
Pistons - $200+
Crankshaft Balancing - $150+
Connecting rods - $300+
ECU tune - $100+

Nearly $2300 more to modestly build a Poor Man's Type-R and include everything the JDM B18C5 already offered. Yes, you could eventually build a Poor Man's Type-R faster and stronger than the stock Type-R, but then again, thinking in that manner requires an unlimited budget, which most of us do not have. Bang for buck, out of the box, I'll spend the extra $700 for the Type-R and call it a day. Cheers.

rd91sib18c5r

When are you getting your swap?