Another Drew

I'd like to replace my non-FIA seat with an FIA seat in order to run without a back brace. That means my seat has to be mounted according to FIA specs and I'm not sure I'm understanding FIA's specs at all. See down below for the FIA specs.

What I have now is a homemade aluminum sidemount much like this one done by Dr. Cortez:



The homemade sidemount is attached to the seat slider of the OEM Honda seat (black rail in the picture). The seat slider was obtained by cutting it off the OEM Honda seat.

Will this pass?

Every car I see has some modified floor or mounts/sliders made by some shop and not by the seat manufacturor, although, most will be using the approved Sparco/Recaro sidemounts in conjunction with the modified floor or seatbracket.


I can't understand the FIA rules because:

1) my civic or any other car in the USA is not "homologated", correct?)

2) I can't find Drawing 253-52 that they're referring to.

3) Since my "attachment" isn't approved by the seat manufacturer, will it automatically fail since NASA/SCCA won't make me test the mount to see if it meets the "Each mounting point must be capable of withstanding a force of 15000 N applied in any direction."


FIA rules state:

"If the original seat attachments or supports are changed, the new parts must either be approved for that application by the seatmanufacturer or must comply with the following specifications(see
drawing 253-52):

1) Supports must be attached to the shell/chassis via at least 4 mounting points per seat using bolts with a minimum diameter of 8 mm and counterplates, according to the drawing. The minimum area of contact between support, shell/chassis and counterplate is 40 cm2 for each mounting point...blah blah blah.
If rails for adjusting the seat are used, they must be those originally supplied with the homologated car or with the seat.

2) The seat must be attached to the supports via 4 mounting points, 2 at the front and 2 at the rear of the seat, using bolts with a minimum diameter of 8 mm and reinforcements integrated into the seat. Each mounting point must be capable of withstanding a force of 15000 N applied in any direction.

3) The minimum thickness of the supports and counterplates is 3 mm for steel and 5 mm for light alloy materials. The minimum longitudinal dimension of each support is 6 cm. All the occupants' seats must be either original, modified only through the addition of accessories with a registered trademark, or homologated by the EEC, the FMVSS or the FIA (8855/1999 standard), and not modified.
For seats in compliance with 8855/1999 FIA standard, the limit for use is 5 years from the date."

slammed_93_hatch

its my understanding that anything with a slider needs a back brace to be legal.

Another Drew

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its my understanding that anything with a slider needs a back brace to be legal.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But:

"If rails for adjusting the seat are used, they must be those originally supplied with the homologated car or with the seat."

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">its my understanding that anything with a slider needs a back brace to be legal.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is that in the NASA CCR or SCCA GCR? I've seen plenty of cars with FIA seats, sliders and no back braces.

I have a FIA approved slider on my seat mount.

Another Drew

EDITED

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I have a FIA approved slider on my seat mount.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But hasn't your "original seat attachments or supports" been changed? Therefore, your mounting has to meet all 3 requirements including "Each mounting point must be capable of withstanding a force of 15000 N applied in any direction"

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Another Drew &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But hasn't your "original seat attachments or supports" been changed?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bolted to the stock location.

Ekasey

no i don't believe this to be true because sliders were supplied with my seat

Another Drew

Oh I thought I saw a pic of yours where the inverted channel was notched out.

You have a pic of your seat mounting? I can't think of a way to mount my recaro slider without SOME type of seatbracket to make it fit. AFAIK, recaro doesn't make a seat bracket, and I can't use a Sparco bracket with my recaro seat since Sparco isn't the manufacturor of my seat.

Ekasey

I used a bracket from speedware motorsports, and from my understanding that is ok, but lets get this figured out where are the rule ****'s when you need them

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Another Drew &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh I thought I saw a pic of yours where the inverted channel was notched out.

You have a pic of your seat mounting? I can't think of a way to mount my recaro slider without SOME type of seatbracket to make it fit. AFAIK, recaro doesn't make a seat bracket, and I can't use a Sparco bracket with my recaro seat since Sparco isn't the manufacturor of my seat. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I took mine to Piper. I had a sparco seat base (complete POS, btw) and the seat and side mounts. Piper cut down the side mounts, welded the sparoco slider to the base, and welded the side mounts to the slider. Everything bolts to the stock seat holes. No reason this wouldnt work w/ a recaro seat.

Another Drew

.RJ, what about "If the original seat attachments or <U>supports are changed</U>, the new parts must either be approved for that application by the seatmanufacturer or must comply with.."?

Knestis

I don't know about NASA but where SCCA defers to FIA homologation, the common assumption is that ALL FIA rules have to be followed. It's my understanding that homologation is void if the OE mounts, as provided for an FIA-listed seat, are changed in any way.

Now, I don't know what that means in the real world but homemade brackets wouldn't fit the literal language of the FIA rules.

K

suprmods

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Another Drew &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">.RJ, what about "If the original seat attachments or <U>supports are changed</U>, the new parts must either be approved for that application by the seatmanufacturer or must comply with.."?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It complys with the specs below because he is still using the OE mounting points on the seat, and the OE mounting points on the chassis.

The FIA rules seem to care more about the mounting points rather than the material/bracketry used to hold the seat in place.

Another Drew

Well I found FIA's drawing 253-52:

http://www.fia.com/resources/d...5.pdf

So it looks like the only way to mount the seat is to mount the seat directly to the floor using sidemounts. So most of us would not meet FIA regs therefore we're supposed to run a backbrace.

Is SCCA/NASA turning a blind eye to this or is no one really paying attention to the rules?

Ekasey

sooooo what if your running an enduro car, and need to slide the seat? Fuxored?

Another Drew

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Casey@Burns &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sooooo what if your running an enduro car, and need to slide the seat? Fuxored?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's ok to run a slider as long as the slider is approved or made by the seat manufacturor.

The figure is for when you're not using stock mounting point or a non-approved mount is used.

At least that's the way I'm interpreting it. Hopefully, we'll have someone with authority &lt;cough cough&gt; clarify this.

Ekasey

ok I have this situation

Recaro seat
Recaro side mount Bracket
Recaro slider
Speedware moutn bracket going to factory honda moutning points

so would this be approved or require a back brace, oh im so confused

Greg Amy

iTrader: (1)

This is one particular area where the SCCA is fairly mum. For the most part, they expect you to use common sense; after all, it's your ***.

The SCCA GCR states (18.2.10), "The driver’s seat shall be firmly mounted
to the structure of the car." That's it. As a tech inspector, I look at seats and mounts and I use common sense. I do not automatically bounce adjustable brackets - in fact I use Momo sliders myself, to custom-fabbed bracketry in the floor - I just look to make sure that the seat is firmly mounted in such a way as to absorb normal forces in a crash.

As for FIA seats, the rule states, "Seats homologated to and mounted in accordance with FIA standard 8855-1999 or higher need not have the seat back
attached to the roll structure. The homologation labels must be visible. Seat supports shall be of the type listed on FIA technical list No.12 (lateral, bottom, etc)."

This creates a bit a a quandary for tech inspectors, as I'll bet a dime to a donut not many of them know FIA standard 8855-1999 (and I certainly can't recite it to you). In reality, it comes down to the "common sense" thing. Most inspectors will look for a seat back brace, find it missing, then go looking for the FIA embroidery on the seat. If it's there, you're signed off. Many, I wager, won't even go as far as making sure the date of manufacturer is within 5 years as required for homologation. No one is going to ask you for homologation papers or testing results on your seat mounts. So, in the real world you're back to using common sense to save your own butt.

If you're interesed in reading the homologation, knock yourself out:

http://www.fia.com/resources/d...t.pdf

If you have any concerns or doubts, it's best to work with a tech inspector well in advance of your first event. - GA

Jeff_B

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I took mine to Piper. I had a sparco seat base (complete POS, btw) and the seat and side mounts. Piper cut down the side mounts, welded the sparoco slider to the base, and welded the side mounts to the slider. Everything bolts to the stock seat holes. No reason this wouldnt work w/ a recaro seat.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you have any photos of this setup?

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ApexSport &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Do you have any photos of this setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I can take some this week

Jeff_B

Sounds good!

I've been having some issues mounting my Evo because I'm trying to retain sliders while keeping it at or below stock height. Currently I'm using the MemoryFab brackets/sliders attached to OMP side mounts (with some custom work), but I'm not very satisfied with the sliders.