Track/race oil
07-07-2014, 07:32 PM
#26
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 3,788
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Track/race oil
While it is true that clean oil is happy oil, there have been tests showing oil filter changes introduce more harmful particles in the first few passes. New oil filters have particulates from manufacturing that enter the system. Hence the change the filter every other oil change.
Synthetic oil also wears out above a certain temperature, which can be done on the track. And while I'm not knocking your method, swearing by AMSOIL (who funds most oils tests) and running just about the worst oil filters (FRAM), seems like an extreme waste of money.
Synthetic oil also wears out above a certain temperature, which can be done on the track. And while I'm not knocking your method, swearing by AMSOIL (who funds most oils tests) and running just about the worst oil filters (FRAM), seems like an extreme waste of money.
Link to said tests? I've seen people mention this elsewhere but never produce any irrefutable evidence. Also, it stands to reason the filter would quickly filter out any loose particulates. I'm pretty sure my oil makes a few passes through the filter during the 20 minutes it takes to warm up before I even head down to pre-grid. Little to no wear occurs at idle as the engine is doing no work - no load.
Also do you have data that shows what temp a synthetic "wears out" at because it isn't doing so under 300F.
I do like my Fram Extra Guard and my Purolator filters but then again I'm changing them often and I don't yet have a lot of blow-by so I'm not rapidly contaminating my oil... yet. I do agree they're not the worlds greatest filter, but my stance is that my use doesn't demand the worlds greatest filter.
As for Amsoil, it meets my targets for 100C cSt, NOACK and HTHS otherwise I would run something else. I used to run VR1 and Syntec but when I found a good distributor/price for Amsoil and decided to extend my intervals, that was that. I'm certain that just about any other synthetic would provide adequate protection as is proven by just about every person in here running a different brand from the next.
Last edited by rice_classic; 07-08-2014 at 08:21 AM.
07-08-2014, 09:52 AM
#27
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Playing in the sandbox
Posts: 2,761
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Re: Track/race oil
As far as personal use, I used M1 15w40 (IIRC) Extended Protection in my D16's but in the last ~3 or so years it's gotten hard to find locally. For the B16's and B18's, I switched to Rotella T6 5w40 and haven't seen any negative effects from it. Unless people are sending their different oils in for analysis, all you're going to get is anecdotal "I ran this and my junk didn't explode" feedback so... grain of salt and all that.
07-08-2014, 10:44 AM
#28
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 3,788
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Track/race oil
http://www.carjunky.com/news/motor_oil/mom2.shtml
The bold is mine.
I've seen road race B and D engines pulling temps from the pan (one of the hottest places) without oil coolers in the range of 280-300. That is way below the flashpoint.
Just to show how good Synthetics are and how close their meaningful numbers compare.. Let's look at the Mobil Racing (~15/qt), Mobil 1 (~9/qt), Amsoil Sig (~11/qt) and RP HPS (~8/qt):
Flashpoint of Mobil 1 0w-30 Racing is 422F
Flashpoint of Mobil 1 normal 10w-30 is 449.6F (450)
Flashpoint of Amsoil Sig 10w-30 is 450F
Flashpoint of RP HPS 10w-30 is 425F
Mobil Racing cSt: 11.5 @ 212F
Mobil 1 cSt: 10.1 @ 212F
Amsoil cSt: 10.5 @ 212F
RP HPS cSt: 10.75 @ 212F
Mobil racing HTHS: 3.3
Mobil 1 HTHS: 3.0
Amsoil Sig HTHS: 3.2
RP HPS HTHS: 3.18
Like I said in my previous post, I get a good deal on amsoil (less than $10/qt) and it checks all my boxes. I'm not spending $20/qt or anything stupid like that on my ITA engine that's for sure but the spec sheet for the Amsoil Sig series is sound for the racing I do and the engine I run and the claims that the Fram Extra Guard filters are going to cause the engine apocalypse are grossly overrated. Most of it stems from idiots on YouTube cutting them open and going "erhmagherd! cardboard end caps! what a POS!"
The flash point can be an indicator of the quality of the base stock used. The higher the flash point the better. 400 degrees F is the absolute MINIMUM to prevent possible high consumption.
Today's engines are expected to put out more power from a smaller size and with less oil than engines of the past. Therefore, the engines run much hotter than they used to. That puts an increased burden on the oil.
Even the best petroleum oils will have flash points only as high as 390 and 440 degrees F. Some actually have flashpoints as low as 350 degrees. For today's hot running engines, this is not nearly enough protection. Just about any synthetic you come across will have a flashpoint over 440 degrees. Premium synthetics can have flashpoints over 450 degrees with some even reaching as high as 500 degrees. That's a big difference.
As a result, I think that it's quite obvious that these high- tech oils offer a substantial benefit when it comes to potential breakdown due to burn-off. Nevertheless, even though synthetics are MUCH less prone to burn-off than are petroleum oils, there is still some burn-off during extremely high temperature operation.
Thus, it becomes important to discuss the manner in which petroleum and synthetic oils burn off. As a refined product, petroleum oil molecules are of varying sizes. Thus, as a petroleum oil heats up, the smaller, lighter molecules begin to burn off first.
...
In addition, as smaller particles burn off, the larger, heavier molecules are all that is left to protect the engine. Unfortunately, these larger particles do not flow nearly as well and tend to blanket the components of your engine which only exacerbates the heat problem.
Synthetic oils, on the other hand, because they are not purified, but rather designed within a lab for lubrication purposes, are comprised of molecules of uniform size and shape. Therefore, even if a synthetic oil does burn a little, the remaining oil has the nearly the same chemical characteristics that it had before the burn off. There are no smaller molecules to burn-off and no heavier molecules to leave behind.
Today's engines are expected to put out more power from a smaller size and with less oil than engines of the past. Therefore, the engines run much hotter than they used to. That puts an increased burden on the oil.
Even the best petroleum oils will have flash points only as high as 390 and 440 degrees F. Some actually have flashpoints as low as 350 degrees. For today's hot running engines, this is not nearly enough protection. Just about any synthetic you come across will have a flashpoint over 440 degrees. Premium synthetics can have flashpoints over 450 degrees with some even reaching as high as 500 degrees. That's a big difference.
As a result, I think that it's quite obvious that these high- tech oils offer a substantial benefit when it comes to potential breakdown due to burn-off. Nevertheless, even though synthetics are MUCH less prone to burn-off than are petroleum oils, there is still some burn-off during extremely high temperature operation.
Thus, it becomes important to discuss the manner in which petroleum and synthetic oils burn off. As a refined product, petroleum oil molecules are of varying sizes. Thus, as a petroleum oil heats up, the smaller, lighter molecules begin to burn off first.
...
In addition, as smaller particles burn off, the larger, heavier molecules are all that is left to protect the engine. Unfortunately, these larger particles do not flow nearly as well and tend to blanket the components of your engine which only exacerbates the heat problem.
Synthetic oils, on the other hand, because they are not purified, but rather designed within a lab for lubrication purposes, are comprised of molecules of uniform size and shape. Therefore, even if a synthetic oil does burn a little, the remaining oil has the nearly the same chemical characteristics that it had before the burn off. There are no smaller molecules to burn-off and no heavier molecules to leave behind.
I've seen road race B and D engines pulling temps from the pan (one of the hottest places) without oil coolers in the range of 280-300. That is way below the flashpoint.
Just to show how good Synthetics are and how close their meaningful numbers compare.. Let's look at the Mobil Racing (~15/qt), Mobil 1 (~9/qt), Amsoil Sig (~11/qt) and RP HPS (~8/qt):
Flashpoint of Mobil 1 0w-30 Racing is 422F
Flashpoint of Mobil 1 normal 10w-30 is 449.6F (450)
Flashpoint of Amsoil Sig 10w-30 is 450F
Flashpoint of RP HPS 10w-30 is 425F
Mobil Racing cSt: 11.5 @ 212F
Mobil 1 cSt: 10.1 @ 212F
Amsoil cSt: 10.5 @ 212F
RP HPS cSt: 10.75 @ 212F
Mobil racing HTHS: 3.3
Mobil 1 HTHS: 3.0
Amsoil Sig HTHS: 3.2
RP HPS HTHS: 3.18
Like I said in my previous post, I get a good deal on amsoil (less than $10/qt) and it checks all my boxes. I'm not spending $20/qt or anything stupid like that on my ITA engine that's for sure but the spec sheet for the Amsoil Sig series is sound for the racing I do and the engine I run and the claims that the Fram Extra Guard filters are going to cause the engine apocalypse are grossly overrated. Most of it stems from idiots on YouTube cutting them open and going "erhmagherd! cardboard end caps! what a POS!"
Last edited by rice_classic; 07-08-2014 at 11:04 AM.
07-09-2014, 05:56 AM
#29
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 876
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Track/race oil
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
I agree with Xian that if you are not getting oil analysis which is a true forensic look at what's happening in your motor, it's all chatter.
I agree with Xian that if you are not getting oil analysis which is a true forensic look at what's happening in your motor, it's all chatter.
07-09-2014, 07:35 AM
#31
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada but from Montreal
Posts: 8,117
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Re: Track/race oil
With the amount of track time you will doing you don't need a full race oil.
You won't need much more then 5w40. You have a nearly stock b18c not a fully built b18c having thick oil isn't necessary and a waste of money for your purpose.
You won't need much more then 5w40. You have a nearly stock b18c not a fully built b18c having thick oil isn't necessary and a waste of money for your purpose.
07-09-2014, 08:11 AM
#32
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Track/race oil
The tests will really only show what condition your motor is in, and not necessarily how good the oil stacks up against others. Those tests have already been done and we know tappet style valvetrain is fond of ZDDP stuff. I'm still saying use a quality filter and change it every other oil change.
07-09-2014, 09:41 AM
#33
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 3,788
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
07-10-2014, 01:32 AM
#35
Homosexual by choice
Re: Track/race oil
changing the oil filter every race weekend? isn't that a bit much? are there really that much contamination going on for few hours of track time? are you not running air filter or something? 
07-10-2014, 03:36 AM
#36
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Quebec, Canada
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Track/race oil
Did the oil change last night! I love the Redline 40WT color hehe. I don't know nothing about HAMP filters, I tried Wix as some users said they were good. I will probably try HAMP filters in the future as well. I know that 40 WT is probably overkill, and probably 30 WT would be a more reasonable choice. Hence, my next oil change will probably go down to the 30 WT, except if I see good pressure from the current 40 WT oil during tracking sessions.
07-12-2014, 03:06 AM
#38
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Track/race oil
rotela t6 (5w40) and honda filters. my b16 likes that better than wix filters and 15w40 rotella (which is still very good)
300°+ oil temps for sure (9300 rpm, no cooler) and no issues.
300°+ oil temps for sure (9300 rpm, no cooler) and no issues.
07-12-2014, 10:16 PM
#41
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Great Falls, MT, USA
Posts: 822
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Track/race oil
wow I don't understand why anyone would vary so much on what Honda specifies for a weight in their engines? Do you guys run larger clearances than factory? Seriously I don't get why you'd run heavier than 5w30 or 10w30? We run 5w30 in our endurance car that see's 100's of race hours with no consumption or oiling issues whatsoever? Are we just always lucky?
07-13-2014, 02:01 PM
#42
Re: Track/race oil
wow I don't understand why anyone would vary so much on what Honda specifies for a weight in their engines? Do you guys run larger clearances than factory? Seriously I don't get why you'd run heavier than 5w30 or 10w30? We run 5w30 in our endurance car that see's 100's of race hours with no consumption or oiling issues whatsoever? Are we just always lucky?
07-13-2014, 02:59 PM
#43
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Playing in the sandbox
Posts: 2,761
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Re: Track/race oil
wow I don't understand why anyone would vary so much on what Honda specifies for a weight in their engines? Do you guys run larger clearances than factory? Seriously I don't get why you'd run heavier than 5w30 or 10w30? We run 5w30 in our endurance car that see's 100's of race hours with no consumption or oiling issues whatsoever? Are we just always lucky?
I don't recall... What car/engine do you guys run?
07-14-2014, 08:17 AM
#44
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 3,788
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Track/race oil
wow I don't understand why anyone would vary so much on what Honda specifies for a weight in their engines? Do you guys run larger clearances than factory? Seriously I don't get why you'd run heavier than 5w30 or 10w30? We run 5w30 in our endurance car that see's 100's of race hours with no consumption or oiling issues whatsoever? Are we just always lucky?
Assuming your engine makes enough oil pressure at the temps you're running on track then you'd be all good, but if not you'd be toast.
On a B motor we built (9k, 12.5:1 CR etc) we struggled to make more than 50PSI at 200F oil temp at 8000 rpms. We either needed to increase pressure via the pump or with oil thickness.
On my D16 with the oil cooler I lost pressure so I put a shim in the pump and gained it back. I can make 60-70 PSI @ 7k RPM all my hottest temp of 260F on 10w-30, so I don't run anything thicker.
07-15-2014, 02:26 PM
#46
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The North Shore of, MN, US
Posts: 1,258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Track/race oil
sounds like its time for me to switch to T6, then i can use the same oil in my track car as i do my Truck and Subaru. That would be super convenient!
07-21-2014, 02:38 AM
#48
Re: Track/race oil
I run T6 or BG Hi-Lo30 (i know a guy)... I've run both in the car and the bikes and never had an issue. You cant beat the price of T6 especially when rebate cards are laying around lol. Our NAPA has rebate cards, so i go in and take 10 off the stack in the counter for the year... buy the oil at walmart... it ends up being around $4/quart
07-22-2014, 11:24 PM
#49
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Track/race oil
I've run rotella T6 since I bought my car.
Took it to the track today maintained full pressure (85 PSI) at 270F oil temps.
From reading above I take it those oil temps were a little high but not dangerous? Water temp stayed below 100C. Oil temp concerned me a little so I started to short shift (that and it started pissing oil from either HG or cam seal).
Car has a built NA B20 (sleeved B18C5)... I'm thinking time for an oil cooler.
Took it to the track today maintained full pressure (85 PSI) at 270F oil temps.
From reading above I take it those oil temps were a little high but not dangerous? Water temp stayed below 100C. Oil temp concerned me a little so I started to short shift (that and it started pissing oil from either HG or cam seal).
Car has a built NA B20 (sleeved B18C5)... I'm thinking time for an oil cooler.
07-25-2014, 07:33 PM
#50
Re: Track/race oil
No, I wrote as if I was aware that there is a difference between a cheap, low grade synthetic oil and a quality, high grade oil. You were the keyboard warrior who decided to clutter up a thread trying to make someone else look stupid, while not even answering the original question I posted.