AKADriver

I've thought about this a lot recently. I'm signed up for two autocross events this weekend - Mazda Rev It Up on saturday and a Philly region SCCA event on sunday where I'll be driving my new Civic.

I've got some autocross experience behind me, with one thing that's always been clear - as of yet, I've never been able to "get it". I've never felt successful at the end of the day, even though I always come in relaxed, enthusiastic, prepared, and ready to learn. I picked up drag racing immediately, and I have no problem making things "click" at HPDEs. It's not my cars - at last year's Mazda event, my times were abyssmal, too. Yet, I still have enough fun to want to come back and give it another shot.

I'm not trying to just self-deprecate and clutter the forum, I'm asking for similar experiences. It seems like every autocross newbie story I read ends with the budding Schumacher taking home a trophy from their first event. It's a bit frustrating to get schooled by teenagers.

SJR

I don't know if it will make you feel better (is that what you want?), but I don't "get" autocross either. I'm the kind of guy who needs a little time to really learn a track layout - and just jumping into a sea of cones just doesn't do it for me. I REALLY suck at it and don't enjoy it that much. Too much standing around for too little time driving.

JMHO.

Crosser

Alot of times when people are having trouble with autocrossing, it is usually due to not looking far enough ahead. It is an easy concept to understand, but putting it in practice is harder on an autocross course. You have much more visual objects to attract your attention. On a road course the edges are easily defined, so looking ahead and visualizing your line are usually much easier. The angles you need to turn your head to look ahead are USUALLY smaller on road courses as well. It is not unheard of to have to look over your shoulder out the side windows to see where you will be going next. This is a tough thing to do. As a result you are going to end up reacting to the course, instead of setting yourself up for it (read proper line).

Try and stick with it.

maxQ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crosser &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Alot of times when people are having trouble with autocrossing, it is usually due to not looking far enough ahead. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Extremely true. Happens at every level. Ask a national champion what he/she needs to do better and "looking farther ahead" will be in their top 5. SOOO easy to forget and regress as well.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It is not unheard of to have to look over your shoulder out the side windows to see where you will be going next. This is a tough thing to do. As a result you are going to end up reacting to the course, instead of setting yourself up for it (read proper line). </TD></TR></TABLE>

This is particularly true in FedEx events. Often I'm having to really crank my head around at the top of the hill (southeast corner). Concentrate on THAT corner next time you run there and if you can catch yourself looking out a window other than the front windshield, it's usually a major breakthrough.

Andy

Jack Black

It might be worth it to try an Evolution school before you give up totally. It costs less than most track days, you get excellent instruction and you get tons of seat time.

emwavey

It takes patience... and some really good, sticky tires.

Can you visualize the course before a run? Are you able to pick out "key" cones?
I love autocrossing, but it took me quite a few years to be able to say that. However I really like driving on a track even more-better.

Also... "ride along with instructors..."

jisu009

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SJR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know if it will make you feel better (is that what you want?), but I don't "get" autocross either. I'm the kind of guy who needs a little time to really learn a track layout - and just jumping into a sea of cones just doesn't do it for me. I REALLY suck at it and don't enjoy it that much. Too much standing around for too little time driving.

JMHO. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Same here....I just don't have that much fun doing it. If you like HPDE's more, then just save the $ by not going to the autocross and use it to attend more HPDE's..

tnord

going from road courses to autox is far different than going from autox to road courses.

it took me a few times out to "get" autox. well, actually, i still don't really get it. i've done well at the last couple i went to (about 2 years ago), but like you, didn't feel like i was driving near as well as i'm capable. this doesn't mean you suck at driving. good autox drivers most of the time make good roadcourse drivers, but for some reason, not vice-versa.

i really don't care if i suck at autox, i really don't enjoy it all that much, and prefer to focus my attention on larger things.

Catch 22

I autocross just for fun and am not serious about it. I prefer the track, bump drafting, and passing under braking. But autocross is still fun and fits in nicely between races.

That said, I'm *OK* at it. The times I have co-driven national level cars with their national level drivers I have always been within 1 second of their best raw time. I view that as respectable.
But I never actually totally "get it." I'm always missing something and I never quite grasp exactly what it is. Renee on the other hand does get it. She beats me almost every time when all other things are equal. She has, however, never bested me on a race track or hill climb.
So there is *something* about autocrossing that separates the top folks who truly get from those of us that are just pretty good at it. I wish I knew what it is.

Sean O'Gorman

"Autocrossers always make good road racers, but road racers do not always make good autocrossers." -T.C. Kline

Not sure how that quote helps your situation, but I just thought I'd rub it in.

B18CJDM

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sean O'Gorman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"Autocrossers always make good road racers, but road racers do not always make good autocrossers." -T.C. Kline

</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is so true, I started w/ auto-x first before attending my first HPDE and I'm glad I did. I do "get" auto-xing and It prepared me for road racing. On the other hand I have a few friends who started road racing before trying auto-x and they are not very good at auto-x at all, & the road racers I know who at least attempted auto-x before road racing are successful at both auto-x and road racing.

jsi

Try to think of it in terms of: once the flag drops you can only lose time, not gain or make time. This may sound trivial but the day you understand the full extent of what this means, then you'll "get it".

You lose time by over driving, under driving, braking too much, not breaking enough, coasting, getting too early and too hard on the gas or vice versa etc. Try not to over-analyze the course in search of "the line". Most often the best line is the simplest one, the shortest path between the gates.

And of course looking far ahead is critical, as others said.

AKADriver

I autocrossed first. A couple events in my previous GTI VR6. I didn't get it then.

00R101

I drive a type R and will be at Ripkin. I am running first heat and can instruct you any heat after that. If you want to ride along with me you're welcome. If you want me to ride along with you or drive your car or walk the course with you just get in touch with me in the paddock.

Regards,
Alan

RangerDan

Those teenagers have a hidden secret to their driving...hours and hours of Video Games lol. Actually its not so funny when you think about it. When you go to your favorite track the only thing you're wondering is which direction are we driving today? Personally Ive never driven that kind of track (nothing around these parts) but once you've driven the same track a few dozen times things should start clicking.

What video games provide is the ability to memorize tracks quickly. Most gamers I know (Been in the industry almost 8 years now) play race games...all the race games whether they be car racing, motocross, snow boarding whatever you get the idea.

Track memory is a must for good times in autocross. From there you can take it a bit further by looking ahead farther and stupid questions like "is that my first lap or second" will quit running through your head.

Anyone here heard of James "Bubba" Stewart? This kid is slaughtering the records in the Supercross and Motocross world. When asked what he thinks seperates him from his competition he replied lots and lots of motocross video gaming.

Blah, blah, blah damn I ramble on sometimes....

emwavey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RangerDan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Those teenagers have a hidden secret to their driving...hours and hours of Video Games lol. Actually its not so funny... James "Bubba" Stewart? This kid is slaughtering the records in the Supercross and Motocross world. When asked what he thinks seperates him from his competition he replied lots and lots of motocross video gaming.

Blah, blah, blah damn I ramble on sometimes....
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think there is merit to what you're rambling about. Though racing games aren't exactly real, some games are more realistic then others. I think this MAY count towards seat time. I've also raced folks in GT3 i.link battles. Some folks GET IT and play it like a race, others don't and play it like a video game. Bouncing off walls doesn't help.

Visualization is key in autocross. It's easier in road racing to visualize a line through a turn because you have more time, and the overall path is more clearly defined. Autocross is like going to a new track every time, and the only way to learn that "track" is to walk it, memorize it, theorize what would be the best line, and visualize it... and attack it. Slight mistakes can translate into great losses in time.

If road racing is like drinking a beer, then autocrossing is like doing a shot.

RangerDan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by emwavey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If road racing is like drinking a beer, then autocrossing is like doing a shot.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well there you have it. lol

yeah and to reiterate on the video game thing...when it comes to countless hours you dont bounce off walls, heck even if you did hopefully you would still be memorizing the track.

I am pretty new to autox but I did take first in my class last year and first overall in points with our scoring system (top scores for half the races that year). I will be the first to admit our club is not the largest but whenever I do venture out to larger organizations Ive done really well. Yadda yadda yadda.

Anyways between some really good instructors and Ricky Carmichael's mx 2002 Championship racing I hope to do well again this year. Yep a motocross game. Do nt knock it till you've tried it...

Edit Didnt mean to sound rude at the end there...I know you weren't knocking video games but I could here the chuckles from folks as they read this.

Sean O'Gorman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RangerDan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Those teenagers have a hidden secret to their driving...hours and hours of Video Games lol. Actually its not so funny when you think about it. When you go to your favorite track the only thing you're wondering is which direction are we driving today? Personally Ive never driven that kind of track (nothing around these parts) but once you've driven the same track a few dozen times things should start clicking.

What video games provide is the ability to memorize tracks quickly. Most gamers I know (Been in the industry almost 8 years now) play race games...all the race games whether they be car racing, motocross, snow boarding whatever you get the idea.

Track memory is a must for good times in autocross. From there you can take it a bit further by looking ahead farther and stupid questions like "is that my first lap or second" will quit running through your head.

Anyone here heard of James "Bubba" Stewart? This kid is slaughtering the records in the Supercross and Motocross world. When asked what he thinks seperates him from his competition he replied lots and lots of motocross video gaming.

Blah, blah, blah damn I ramble on sometimes....


</TD></TR></TABLE>

Great points! Although I'm not a teenager anymore, I started a few years back when I was only 18 and was the Neohio region's Speed Freakz champ last year. I played lots and lots of IndyCar Racing 2, Gran Turismo, Sports Car GT, etc. as a teenager and that all prepared me for autocross. I knew exactly what to do when it came to tire pressures, and when I put my adjustable shocks in for this season, I had no problem learning to adjust those either.

One of the things that I think helped me were the relatively short sessions you have in video games. Races in Gran Turismo are often 2-3 laps long, so you have to be quick IMMEDIATELY, and in a wide range of cars. In ICR2, I spent most of my time hotlapping, where I would exit pits, do a fast lap with a minimal amount of fuel, come back in, and make changes. Sports Car GT is full of possible add-ons, including autocross courses, so I spent some time playing on those before my first events.

Now, when I'm not autocrossing I play Project Gotham 2 on Xbox Live to keep me sharp. 3 lap races, dozens of tracks, and somewhat realistic physics. Its a fun game, one night I even raced against road racer Jim Daniels! I had no idea who he was at the time, but its pretty cool to think I was consistantly beating a real race car driver in a video game.

Anyway, what I'm trying to get at isn't so much about kids and video games and reflexes, but more about momentum. In autocross you don't get to carry momentum from one run to another. The run is done, you wait 15-30 minutes or so, and go again, and it almost feels like your first run all over again each time. I think when an autocrosser picks up the skill of working around the lack of continuity, it makes them a very potent racer. This is probably why autocrossers do so well road racing, because they get all these new luxuries like continuous lapping, and a significantly larger amount of track time to dial in the car setup, while road racers apparently have issues going to auto-x because of the lack of track time.

tnord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sean O'Gorman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Its a fun game, one night I even raced against road racer Jim Daniels! I had no idea who he was at the time, but its pretty cool to think I was consistantly beating a real race car driver in a video game.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

that's cause there aren't any miata's in that game.

it's also like beating your dad at a video game.

Sean O'Gorman

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

that's cause there aren't any miata's in that game.

it's also like beating your dad at a video game. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, there are, but we were racing the class with RX-7s, WRXs, Lancers, Skylines, Supras, and 3000GTs. He said he only had the game for a day, but the learning curve for the game is fairly short if you know what you are doing.

Shmeek

*swing!* back on topic here...

I didn't "get" autocross my first year. I sucked. I had fun, but I let the competition aspect get to me, and couldn't figure out why I was slower (by a few seconds) than the second to last person in my group.

Then, I took an Evolution school. Then I got it. Wow, did I get it. In fact, I came away as the local class champ at the end of the year.

Many people will say that you need more seat time. You do. But for many, seat time isn't enough. It wasn't for me. You also need instruction. A typical autocross event provides zero to little time for instruction.

Take an in-depth school and you'll get enough seat time and instruction to make things click. If you can't find a nearby Evolution school, or you can't afford it, see if your local club puts on a rookie school. Many clubs do. These schools will provide you with more runs in one day than you'll probably take with the rest of the season combined.

As already mentioned, tried to ride with other "hot shoes" too. You'll learn a lot about how they drive. Ask to walk the course with them too!

If it still doesn't pan out for you, don't worry about it. I have a friend who couldn't get it (though he didn't go through any schools). He now races in Spec Miata, and does fairly well. Just don't ask him to see his way through a sea of cones!

emwavey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Shmeek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">*swing!* back on topic here...

...As already mentioned, tried to ride with other "hot shoes" too. You'll learn a lot about how they drive. Ask to walk the course with them too!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes indeed! Ride with the local hotshoes. It's an eye-opening experience!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Shmeek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If it still doesn't pan out for you, don't worry about it. I have a friend who couldn't get it (though he didn't go through any schools). He now races in Spec Miata, and does fairly well. Just don't ask him to see his way through a sea of cones!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is you're friend's name "tnord"?

tnord

actually no, it's not me.

honda93

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crosser &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Alot of times when people are having trouble with autocrossing, it is usually due to not looking far enough ahead. It is an easy concept to understand, but putting it in practice is harder on an autocross course. You have much more visual objects to attract your attention. On a road course the edges are easily defined, so looking ahead and visualizing your line are usually much easier. The angles you need to turn your head to look ahead are USUALLY smaller on road courses as well. It is not unheard of to have to look over your shoulder out the side windows to see where you will be going next. This is a tough thing to do. As a result you are going to end up reacting to the course, instead of setting yourself up for it (read proper line).

Try and stick with it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

What he said. If it helps, I didn't feel "good" at this until 1999 and wasn't ready for a national level event until 2000... I started autocrossing in 1994.

Now my name is feared and revered!

Anthony "Mario" Crea

MrIllegalX

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent Smith &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It might be worth it to try an Evolution school before you give up totally. It costs less than most track days, you get excellent instruction and you get tons of seat time.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I didn't get it until I went to that school. Now the lil civic that could is now compeitive, instead of just being an entrant.

A note on video games:
Before I started autocrossing I had GT3, and I got all my licenses in that game and such. After about 6 months of autocrossing I went back and re-did the licenses for fun. Not only was it much easier to beat the times for bronze, I even got some golds. Autocrossing helped me in GT3, and vice versa. I'm convinced I could race on Laguna Seca blind folded.

Take the Evolution School and pick up the book "Secrets of Solo Racing" by Henry A. Watts. That'll help you out a lot.