Sway bar vs. Spring rates
12-11-2005, 01:14 PM
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Sway bar vs. Spring rates
What should be changed first in dealing with understeer?
The club I autox with is starting to use a lot more sweeping corners instead of quick transitions, and in these corners my car tends to have an understeer that none of my imputs seem to cure.
My question is should I first upgrade my rear springs ( I was thinking something around 400 lbs.) , or should I get a thicker rear sway bar first to get the car to rotate?
Current Setup:
OTS ground controls
Ground Control upper mounts in front
Tokico Illuminas
22mm Suspension Techniques front sway bar
OEM si rear sway bar
Falken Azenis RT615
1.5 degree front camber 1 degree rear 0 toe all around.
97' hatchback
The club I autox with is starting to use a lot more sweeping corners instead of quick transitions, and in these corners my car tends to have an understeer that none of my imputs seem to cure.
My question is should I first upgrade my rear springs ( I was thinking something around 400 lbs.) , or should I get a thicker rear sway bar first to get the car to rotate?
Current Setup:
OTS ground controls
Ground Control upper mounts in front
Tokico Illuminas
22mm Suspension Techniques front sway bar
OEM si rear sway bar
Falken Azenis RT615
1.5 degree front camber 1 degree rear 0 toe all around.
97' hatchback
12-11-2005, 01:43 PM
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Re: Sway bar vs. Spring rates (EK4civichatch)
Well I have a few suggestion. One get rid of that huge front sway bar. Front wheel drive cars do not like it and it is going to make it understeer even more. Go back to whatever the stock one was or maybe even a little smaller if possible. I wouldnt go totally without one unless you are running real high spring rates. Without it on a car with low spring rates you will have troubles in the transitions.
Next I belive when you just order the OTS stuff from ground control it is going to have the heavier spring rates in the front and the smaller ones in the back. you want that the other way. Smaller spring rates in the front and the larger ones in the back.
You can also try a little toe out in the front. like a 1/16 total This will make your initial turn in a little quicker but wont really help with steady state turning. This will make the car not track down the road super great and I woulnt go with anymore than like a 1/16 if you are also daily driving the car.
You may also want to go with a bigger rear sway bar.
My car is a 89 CRX and I am running 400f/450r spring rates ground control coilovers with Koni yellows. I am running 3.5 degrees of negative camber front 1.5 in the rear 1/8 toe out front and a 1/16 toe in the rear. I also have the ST 22mm rear sway bar and the stock guy up front and my car is very neutral handling with a controlable over steer at times.
Hope that helps.
Next I belive when you just order the OTS stuff from ground control it is going to have the heavier spring rates in the front and the smaller ones in the back. you want that the other way. Smaller spring rates in the front and the larger ones in the back.
You can also try a little toe out in the front. like a 1/16 total This will make your initial turn in a little quicker but wont really help with steady state turning. This will make the car not track down the road super great and I woulnt go with anymore than like a 1/16 if you are also daily driving the car.
You may also want to go with a bigger rear sway bar.
My car is a 89 CRX and I am running 400f/450r spring rates ground control coilovers with Koni yellows. I am running 3.5 degrees of negative camber front 1.5 in the rear 1/8 toe out front and a 1/16 toe in the rear. I also have the ST 22mm rear sway bar and the stock guy up front and my car is very neutral handling with a controlable over steer at times.
Hope that helps.
12-11-2005, 01:48 PM
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You forgot one simple element... tire pressures?
Have the rears atleast 5-6 lbs less than your fronts, you can induce a good bit of rotation with that.
How comfortable are you with left foot braking? You can also get a little more rotation with that.
Have the rears atleast 5-6 lbs less than your fronts, you can induce a good bit of rotation with that.
How comfortable are you with left foot braking? You can also get a little more rotation with that.
12-11-2005, 02:01 PM
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Re: (94accordsedan)
good info to add to that. i would go with raising the spring rates before getting a larger sway bar. if you go to thick with the sway bar and keep stock spring rate you will have a better chance of tearing your sub frame. you springs will want to load and all the load will be transfered to the sway bar, and want to tear the sub frame. the kits like a-spec and beaks will help with this problem but it will still have the same effect.
12-11-2005, 03:36 PM
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Re: (94accordsedan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You forgot one simple element... tire pressures?
Have the rears atleast 5-6 lbs less than your fronts, you can induce a good bit of rotation with that.
How comfortable are you with left foot braking? You can also get a little more rotation with that. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I usually run my 42lbs in the front tires and 38lbs in the rear. I tried lowering the rear pressure at the last event but it wasnt to successful.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rainforest »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">good info to add to that. i would go with raising the spring rates before getting a larger sway bar. if you go to thick with the sway bar and keep stock spring rate you will have a better chance of tearing your sub frame. you springs will want to load and all the load will be transfered to the sway bar, and want to tear the sub frame. the kits like a-spec and beaks will help with this problem but it will still have the same effect.</TD></TR></TABLE>
If the sway bar is the way to go I plan on getting the comptech unit.
Have the rears atleast 5-6 lbs less than your fronts, you can induce a good bit of rotation with that.
How comfortable are you with left foot braking? You can also get a little more rotation with that. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I usually run my 42lbs in the front tires and 38lbs in the rear. I tried lowering the rear pressure at the last event but it wasnt to successful.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rainforest »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">good info to add to that. i would go with raising the spring rates before getting a larger sway bar. if you go to thick with the sway bar and keep stock spring rate you will have a better chance of tearing your sub frame. you springs will want to load and all the load will be transfered to the sway bar, and want to tear the sub frame. the kits like a-spec and beaks will help with this problem but it will still have the same effect.</TD></TR></TABLE>
If the sway bar is the way to go I plan on getting the comptech unit.
12-11-2005, 04:15 PM
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Re: (EK4civichatch)
You want to try a really simple idea? Just pull out the big front bar, or at least remove one of the end links. That big front bar is probably making your car understeer worse than stock.
12-11-2005, 04:42 PM
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Re: (MightyMouseTech)
I'd rather not pull the front bar. I really don't like the feel in transitions.
Is it really that big?? The stock Si bar is something like a 25mm.
Is it really that big?? The stock Si bar is something like a 25mm.
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12-11-2005, 05:57 PM
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Re: Sway bar vs. Spring rates (EK4civichatch)
here's my theories...i've only been autoxing for 2 years so take my advice as a grain of salt...unless one of the more experienced drivers agrees with me 
since swaybars laterally transfer load to the outside tire, overall grip on that end of the car is reduced more than a set of stiffer springs...plus you keep the ability to conform with bumps rather than hopping over them
also, with a stock civic motor, you don't really have to worry too much about the front end lifting and messing up your geometry during acceleration
of course it gets MUCH more complicated with all this diagonal load transfer, front and rear wheel rate mumbo jumbo but that's why there are books written on the subject
since swaybars laterally transfer load to the outside tire, overall grip on that end of the car is reduced more than a set of stiffer springs...plus you keep the ability to conform with bumps rather than hopping over them
also, with a stock civic motor, you don't really have to worry too much about the front end lifting and messing up your geometry during acceleration
of course it gets MUCH more complicated with all this diagonal load transfer, front and rear wheel rate mumbo jumbo but that's why there are books written on the subject
12-11-2005, 07:05 PM
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Re: (EK4civichatch)
Start with the Comptech and 400# springs in back. I ran that setup for the first half of this year and liked it pretty well.
Great, I just helped my competition.
Great, I just helped my competition.
12-11-2005, 07:18 PM
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Re: (Agent Smith)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent Smith »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Start with the Comptech and 400# springs in back. I ran that setup for the first half of this year and liked it pretty well.
Great, I just helped my competition.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Honda-tech is a small world after all
Great, I just helped my competition.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Honda-tech is a small world after all
12-12-2005, 04:10 AM
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Re: (clemsonhatch)
this topic has been covered many times, once with a thread title nearly identical to this thread's. in short, add the rear bar before adding more rear spring. make sure you reinforce the subframe, or go with a relatively small rear bar. just adding the Si rear bar will make a difference. the car will still be rather pushy though. only 1.5* negative front camber will do that to you. after you get your rear bar, start shimming down the rear camber until the car is loose enough for you. you'll probably be pretty close to zero at that point.
remember, an EF CRX is way different then an EK civic. for one, the EK's don't have as aggressive of a a camber curve. for two, the EK's don't have nearly the same suspension travel. 1.5*'s of negative front camber is not enough. going bigger on the front bar on this car with the springs he has will actually IMPROVE front grip. in other words, the front bar is NOT the problem.
nate
remember, an EF CRX is way different then an EK civic. for one, the EK's don't have as aggressive of a a camber curve. for two, the EK's don't have nearly the same suspension travel. 1.5*'s of negative front camber is not enough. going bigger on the front bar on this car with the springs he has will actually IMPROVE front grip. in other words, the front bar is NOT the problem.
nate
12-12-2005, 04:44 AM
#13
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Re: (solo-x)
Another "problem" could be that he is going too fast for his current set-up. Slowing down a little more will make the car not push and is the most cost effective fix 
12-12-2005, 08:19 AM
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Re: (EK4civichatch)
Are you coming to the autox this weekend? The fields have been getting kind of thin lately.
BTW, you should definitely try to make it to an event at Bank Atlantic Center. It's a much more challenging location than Hialeah or even Homestead.
BTW, you should definitely try to make it to an event at Bank Atlantic Center. It's a much more challenging location than Hialeah or even Homestead.
12-12-2005, 12:15 PM
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Re: (Agent Smith)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent Smith »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Start with the Comptech and 400# springs in back. I ran that setup for the first half of this year and liked it pretty well.
Great, I just helped my competition.</TD></TR></TABLE>
A different chassis, but my 00 gsr with 400/400 springs and a comptech rear swaybar (stock font bar) provides me with a little more rotation than I can handle. RT-615 Azenis, 38/36 psi, 2.2*/1.4* camber. Its also my first year, so the driver definately still has a lot of learning to go.
Great, I just helped my competition.
</TD></TR></TABLE>A different chassis, but my 00 gsr with 400/400 springs and a comptech rear swaybar (stock font bar) provides me with a little more rotation than I can handle. RT-615 Azenis, 38/36 psi, 2.2*/1.4* camber. Its also my first year, so the driver definately still has a lot of learning to go.
12-12-2005, 12:39 PM
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Re: (EK4civichatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EK4civichatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd rather not pull the front bar. I really don't like the feel in transitions.
Is it really that big?? The stock Si bar is something like a 25mm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's going to be a compromise between the sweepers and the transitions. I would first try out the cheapest (i.e. free) option first. Unhook an endlink and run it once to see if that helps you out on those sweepers. You can always hook it back up (free again), then go with another change.
Think about it this way. Anti-roll bars basically restrict traction on the end they're installed. Installing a rear bar to overcome lacjkk of traction on the front is kinda back asswards. I'd go with higher rates if you don't like the feeling of no front sway.
Is it really that big?? The stock Si bar is something like a 25mm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's going to be a compromise between the sweepers and the transitions. I would first try out the cheapest (i.e. free) option first. Unhook an endlink and run it once to see if that helps you out on those sweepers. You can always hook it back up (free again), then go with another change.
Think about it this way. Anti-roll bars basically restrict traction on the end they're installed. Installing a rear bar to overcome lacjkk of traction on the front is kinda back asswards. I'd go with higher rates if you don't like the feeling of no front sway.
12-12-2005, 12:44 PM
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Re: (Agent Smith)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent Smith »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Start with the Comptech and 400# springs in back. I ran that setup for the first half of this year and liked it pretty well.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's essentially what I have going on too. I have 400# rears with a 22mm ITR bar and 450# front spings with NO front sway bar. I liked the way it handled at the AutoX.
As a disclaimer, I'm slow as heck in AutoX so I really don't know or care if it's the right setup right now. If the regional champ is 4+ seconds faster than me (62.xxx vs. 66.xxx) in my car then I'm not going to change anything on the car till I'm as fast as a good driver in my car.
That's essentially what I have going on too. I have 400# rears with a 22mm ITR bar and 450# front spings with NO front sway bar. I liked the way it handled at the AutoX.
As a disclaimer, I'm slow as heck in AutoX so I really don't know or care if it's the right setup right now. If the regional champ is 4+ seconds faster than me (62.xxx vs. 66.xxx) in my car then I'm not going to change anything on the car till I'm as fast as a good driver in my car.
12-12-2005, 02:31 PM
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Re: (nonsense)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Think about it this way. Anti-roll bars basically restrict traction on the end they're installed. Installing a rear bar to overcome lacjkk of traction on the front is kinda back asswards. I'd go with higher rates if you don't like the feeling of no front sway. </TD></TR></TABLE>
when you simplify things too much, you find yourself coming up with logic like this.
nate
when you simplify things too much, you find yourself coming up with logic like this.
nate
12-12-2005, 07:40 PM
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Re: (Agent Smith)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent Smith »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are you coming to the autox this weekend? The fields have been getting kind of thin lately.
BTW, you should definitely try to make it to an event at Bank Atlantic Center. It's a much more challenging location than Hialeah or even Homestead.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was supposed to go to the BAC event BUT I was sick as a dog, and trust me it takes a lot to keep me away from an event!
I'm not sure just yet if I'll be able to go this weekend, hopefully I will.
BTW, you should definitely try to make it to an event at Bank Atlantic Center. It's a much more challenging location than Hialeah or even Homestead.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was supposed to go to the BAC event BUT I was sick as a dog, and trust me it takes a lot to keep me away from an event!
I'm not sure just yet if I'll be able to go this weekend, hopefully I will.
12-13-2005, 09:28 AM
#21
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Re: (superpilun)
the problem with that is as soon as you get into toe settings your cars daily driveability nose dives. thats the problem that i face with my DD autoX car.
i jsut finished out my first season of autoX so obviously im no pro. but i say just throw the stock sway bar back in the front and jsut drive the car. after you can drive the hell out of it then worry about new modifications. i wish i had raced autoX before i started building my car, because now i have a motor swap that puts me in SM no matter what else i do.
i jsut finished out my first season of autoX so obviously im no pro. but i say just throw the stock sway bar back in the front and jsut drive the car. after you can drive the hell out of it then worry about new modifications. i wish i had raced autoX before i started building my car, because now i have a motor swap that puts me in SM no matter what else i do.
12-13-2005, 11:28 AM
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Re: (solo-x)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">when you simplify things too much, you find yourself coming up with logic like this.</TD></TR></TABLE>
uh ok, I didn't "come up with it" but thanks for the credit anyway.
Tell me how a ARB doesn't decrease traction.
Are you saying that a large rear sway bar will make the rear end have more traction (understeer)? Are you also saying that a large front sway bar will make the front have more traction (oversteer)?
My point is that his front sway is causing understeer. Adding a big rear sway will probably balance things out, but will it be faster? It doesn't give the front any more traction, it just takes away from the rear. If he disconnects the front it's going to make the car less likely to understeer in those long sweepers. If it's not enough add rear rates too, if that's not enough add a rear swaybar last. It's a final tuning device not a solution to poorly setup suspension. Sure he could keep the front bar too, but not with those rates and no rear bar, so my advice remains the same. First disconnect the front ARB, then add spring, then add sway, then hook up the front if it's too much oversteer.
uh ok, I didn't "come up with it" but thanks for the credit anyway.
Tell me how a ARB doesn't decrease traction. Are you saying that a large rear sway bar will make the rear end have more traction (understeer)? Are you also saying that a large front sway bar will make the front have more traction (oversteer)?
My point is that his front sway is causing understeer. Adding a big rear sway will probably balance things out, but will it be faster? It doesn't give the front any more traction, it just takes away from the rear. If he disconnects the front it's going to make the car less likely to understeer in those long sweepers. If it's not enough add rear rates too, if that's not enough add a rear swaybar last. It's a final tuning device not a solution to poorly setup suspension. Sure he could keep the front bar too, but not with those rates and no rear bar, so my advice remains the same. First disconnect the front ARB, then add spring, then add sway, then hook up the front if it's too much oversteer.
12-13-2005, 01:29 PM
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Re: (nonsense)
no, i'm saying a large rear bar will increase front grip. more specifically, in this particular case, i'm also saying the front bar the OP currently has is actually increasing front grip too. with how soft the OP's springs are and how little static camber he has, i'd actually suggest going even BIGGER with the front bar.
nonsense, you seem to have a common misunderstanding of what a swaybar does. true, it decreases grip on the axle pair it is added to in most situations, but it also increases grip on the other axle pair. however, on a car that is rather front heavy with low static camber on the front axle, adding a bigger front bar may actually increase grip on that axle pair simply because the outside front tire contact patch is better optimized. sure, more front spring would help, but as far as tire loading is concerned adding spring is the same as adding bar. an equivalent increase in roll stiffness by adding front spring vs. adding front bar will result in the same amount of change in chassis balance.
finally, a swaybar is not your final tuning device. it is part of the solution to getting a balanced suspension setup. having too much of any one part of the suspension tuning arsenal is sub-optimal. a balance of spring, bar and shock is typically your best bet. you don't want too much spring to make up for too little bar, too much shock to make up for too little spring, etc. compromises must be made, sure, but don't throw out a swaybar just because you think it's the cause of all your headaches.
nate
nate
nonsense, you seem to have a common misunderstanding of what a swaybar does. true, it decreases grip on the axle pair it is added to in most situations, but it also increases grip on the other axle pair. however, on a car that is rather front heavy with low static camber on the front axle, adding a bigger front bar may actually increase grip on that axle pair simply because the outside front tire contact patch is better optimized. sure, more front spring would help, but as far as tire loading is concerned adding spring is the same as adding bar. an equivalent increase in roll stiffness by adding front spring vs. adding front bar will result in the same amount of change in chassis balance.
finally, a swaybar is not your final tuning device. it is part of the solution to getting a balanced suspension setup. having too much of any one part of the suspension tuning arsenal is sub-optimal. a balance of spring, bar and shock is typically your best bet. you don't want too much spring to make up for too little bar, too much shock to make up for too little spring, etc. compromises must be made, sure, but don't throw out a swaybar just because you think it's the cause of all your headaches.
nate
nate
12-14-2005, 10:43 AM
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Re: (solo-x)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nonsense, you seem to have a common misunderstanding of what a swaybar does. true, it decreases grip on the axle pair it is added to in most situations, but it also increases grip on the other axle pair. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I disagree. I can't see how it could possibly increase grip on the other end, but lets say it does. I'm still right in suggesting removing the front bar then right? If the front bar is decreasing front grip and at the same time increasing rear grip the car will push. We're saying the same things.
Adding a rear sway to overcome an issue created by the front sway is counterproductive in my opinion. What is the front sway doing for him that more front camber and a less rear traction wont do?
I disagree. I can't see how it could possibly increase grip on the other end, but lets say it does. I'm still right in suggesting removing the front bar then right? If the front bar is decreasing front grip and at the same time increasing rear grip the car will push. We're saying the same things.
Adding a rear sway to overcome an issue created by the front sway is counterproductive in my opinion. What is the front sway doing for him that more front camber and a less rear traction wont do?
12-14-2005, 11:24 AM
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Re: (nonsense)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nonsense »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can't see how it could possibly increase grip on the other end</TD></TR></TABLE>
therein lies your problem. you also missed the "in most situations" qualifier in my statement. when one element of the suspension package is way out of it's optimal operating range many of the general suspension tuning "rules" are thrown out the window. in this case, the OP's car is lacking on static front camber and overall roll stiffness. if you remove the front bar in this situation the car might rotate better or it might not, depending on a few other things that are going on. regardless of any change in yaw rate, total grip will most definitely go down.
nate
therein lies your problem. you also missed the "in most situations" qualifier in my statement. when one element of the suspension package is way out of it's optimal operating range many of the general suspension tuning "rules" are thrown out the window. in this case, the OP's car is lacking on static front camber and overall roll stiffness. if you remove the front bar in this situation the car might rotate better or it might not, depending on a few other things that are going on. regardless of any change in yaw rate, total grip will most definitely go down.
nate