String Alignment Q
10-19-2005, 08:12 AM
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String Alignment Q
Ok, So I need to give my car an alignment tonite, and I would also like to be able to do one at events. (Stuff gets pretty whacked out when you ram boulders).
I have been reading all the Alignment threads here on HT, and everyone having problems with "Squaring the box" using the string jackstand method.
My question is, why do I need a box? Cant I just do one side at a time, lay the string out flat a couple inches from the wheel hubs. Measure the front and rear rim lip, and adjust the toe?
(This is toe only, camber is allready set, well, close enough for rock n roll)
I have been reading all the Alignment threads here on HT, and everyone having problems with "Squaring the box" using the string jackstand method.
My question is, why do I need a box? Cant I just do one side at a time, lay the string out flat a couple inches from the wheel hubs. Measure the front and rear rim lip, and adjust the toe?
(This is toe only, camber is allready set, well, close enough for rock n roll)
10-19-2005, 08:33 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (mattjohnston)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mattjohnston »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok, So I need to give my car an alignment tonite, and I would also like to be able to do one at events. (Stuff gets pretty whacked out when you ram boulders).
I have been reading all the Alignment threads here on HT, and everyone having problems with "Squaring the box" using the string jackstand method.
My question is, why do I need a box? Cant I just do one side at a time, lay the string out flat a couple inches from the wheel hubs. Measure the front and rear rim lip, and adjust the toe?
(This is toe only, camber is allready set, well, close enough for rock n roll)</TD></TR></TABLE>
The biggest issue with that is that the front and rear axles are not always the same width, making the car have a track difference, making your string not parallel to the car. Making the box fixes this by making a true rectangle.
So you will have a string that is 3 inches off the front hubs and 3.5 off the rear hubs to get your box. (Made up numbers.)
I have been reading all the Alignment threads here on HT, and everyone having problems with "Squaring the box" using the string jackstand method.
My question is, why do I need a box? Cant I just do one side at a time, lay the string out flat a couple inches from the wheel hubs. Measure the front and rear rim lip, and adjust the toe?
(This is toe only, camber is allready set, well, close enough for rock n roll)</TD></TR></TABLE>
The biggest issue with that is that the front and rear axles are not always the same width, making the car have a track difference, making your string not parallel to the car. Making the box fixes this by making a true rectangle.
So you will have a string that is 3 inches off the front hubs and 3.5 off the rear hubs to get your box. (Made up numbers.)
10-19-2005, 08:39 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (RacerBowie)
But since I know that the front track on my car (EG) is 5mm greater in the front. Cant I just make my string 5mm farther out in the front?
10-19-2005, 08:45 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (mattjohnston)
In a perfect world, you could probably get away with that. But you'll never know if you've bent a rear trailing arm that way, and God forbid what will happen if the steering wheel or previously set wheel gets touched before you get set up on the other side...
I've heard the WRC guys have alignment rigs for stringing cars on jack-stands. Pretty much like the Smart Alignment set-up with a pole at the front end, one at the rear and strings forming the box. Once you've got your baseline alignment with the car on level ground and fully weighted, you raise the car off the ground with the suspension at full droop, lower the poles so the strings are level with the hubs and note the new "baseline" measurements at full droop. Now you can make all further changes and alignment checks with the car in the air at full droop. Since all the poles and string are mounted to the car and not the ground, you don't have to worry about a level surface or a fully weighted car. Sounds pretty slick to me...
I've heard the WRC guys have alignment rigs for stringing cars on jack-stands. Pretty much like the Smart Alignment set-up with a pole at the front end, one at the rear and strings forming the box. Once you've got your baseline alignment with the car on level ground and fully weighted, you raise the car off the ground with the suspension at full droop, lower the poles so the strings are level with the hubs and note the new "baseline" measurements at full droop. Now you can make all further changes and alignment checks with the car in the air at full droop. Since all the poles and string are mounted to the car and not the ground, you don't have to worry about a level surface or a fully weighted car. Sounds pretty slick to me...
10-19-2005, 08:46 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (mattjohnston)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mattjohnston »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But since I know that the front track on my car (EG) is 5mm greater in the front. Cant I just make my string 5mm farther out in the front?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes. For quick field adjustments I'd say that's fine.
Whatever method you use to get the toe you want, keep doing it that way if it works.
$.02
Yes. For quick field adjustments I'd say that's fine.
Whatever method you use to get the toe you want, keep doing it that way if it works.
$.02
10-19-2005, 08:48 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (mattjohnston)
I usually jack the car up, wrap some masking tape around the front tires, spin them and put a straight line around the tire (on the masking tape) with a ball point pen. Put the car down, roll it around a bit, Then get a buddy to help you and measure (with a tape measure) between the two lines, in front of and in back of the front tires. This won't square up the fronts and rears like the string method might, but it will set the toe on front of the car.
10-19-2005, 09:04 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (LBHgti)
My rear is pretty whacked out right now, prolly a couple of inches.
Gotta get the hammer out first, and then adjust. A couple mm doesnt matter to me.
Gotta get the hammer out first, and then adjust. A couple mm doesnt matter to me.
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10-19-2005, 09:12 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (mattjohnston)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mattjohnston »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My rear is pretty whacked out right now, prolly a couple of inches.
Gotta get the hammer out first, and then adjust. A couple mm doesnt matter to me.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ummm, rally hammer... Mike Welsh at Road Race Engineering has a hammer they made using a Ford rear axle for a handle and a 30-40 lb. lead brick on the end. Perfect for aligning bent rear trailing arms.
Gotta get the hammer out first, and then adjust. A couple mm doesnt matter to me.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ummm, rally hammer... Mike Welsh at Road Race Engineering has a hammer they made using a Ford rear axle for a handle and a 30-40 lb. lead brick on the end. Perfect for aligning bent rear trailing arms.
10-19-2005, 09:22 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (thawley)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Ummm, rally hammer... Mike Welsh at Road Race Engineering has a hammer they made using a Ford rear axle for a handle and a 30-40 lb. lead brick on the end. Perfect for aligning bent rear trailing arms. </TD></TR></TABLE>
lol, there's a video of them using that hammer to do the aligning.
Ummm, rally hammer... Mike Welsh at Road Race Engineering has a hammer they made using a Ford rear axle for a handle and a 30-40 lb. lead brick on the end. Perfect for aligning bent rear trailing arms. </TD></TR></TABLE>
lol, there's a video of them using that hammer to do the aligning.
10-19-2005, 11:05 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (UltimateTSI)
this is a dumb question...
i have never heard of doing an alignment like this. why do you guys do this instead of just taking the car to an alignment shop?
i'm not being a smartass, it was a genuine question...
i have never heard of doing an alignment like this. why do you guys do this instead of just taking the car to an alignment shop?
i'm not being a smartass, it was a genuine question...
10-19-2005, 11:11 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (Mr.E.G.)
Cuz racers are poor and aligning your own car gives more chance to bond with it. In addition, if something happens on the track - an off track excursion or other contact - you can do the alignment yourself at the track.
10-19-2005, 11:11 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (Mr.E.G.)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is a dumb question...
i have never heard of doing an alignment like this. why do you guys do this instead of just taking the car to an alignment shop?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well once its done on a laser rack and all 4 tires are pointed the right direction its a cheap way to make adjustments to the car without paying another $100+
i have never heard of doing an alignment like this. why do you guys do this instead of just taking the car to an alignment shop?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well once its done on a laser rack and all 4 tires are pointed the right direction its a cheap way to make adjustments to the car without paying another $100+
10-19-2005, 01:24 PM
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Re: String Alignment Q (Mr.E.G.)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is a dumb question...
i have never heard of doing an alignment like this. why do you guys do this instead of just taking the car to an alignment shop?
i'm not being a smartass, it was a genuine question...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Cuz we all have that much extra spare time on our hands....and that much less spare money in our pockets
i have never heard of doing an alignment like this. why do you guys do this instead of just taking the car to an alignment shop?
i'm not being a smartass, it was a genuine question...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Cuz we all have that much extra spare time on our hands....and that much less spare money in our pockets
10-19-2005, 03:56 PM
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Re: String Alignment Q (LBHgti)
i guess it just seems odd to me because 100 bucks for an alignment isnt that expensive.
but i can see what you mean with being able to do it at the track, as well as bonding with the car and whatnot
but i can see what you mean with being able to do it at the track, as well as bonding with the car and whatnot
10-19-2005, 03:58 PM
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Re: String Alignment Q (Mr.E.G.)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr.E.G. »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i guess it just seems odd to me because 100 bucks for an alignment isnt that expensive.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well when you are changing things around several times a year that could be $500 saved - and the time/hassle to go to the alignment shop. Thats the cost of a set of tires
Well when you are changing things around several times a year that could be $500 saved - and the time/hassle to go to the alignment shop. Thats the cost of a set of tires
10-19-2005, 04:15 PM
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Re: String Alignment Q (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> - and the time/hassle to go to the alignment shop.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, with a car you can't drive on the street (race car) you also have to consider loading and unloading the trailer (twice) to get to and from the alignment shop. The string-thing can save time as well as money. I for one would much rather enjoy a cold one in my garage than have to load/unload the trailer any day. Even if there were no time saved...
Yeah, with a car you can't drive on the street (race car) you also have to consider loading and unloading the trailer (twice) to get to and from the alignment shop. The string-thing can save time as well as money. I for one would much rather enjoy a cold one in my garage than have to load/unload the trailer any day. Even if there were no time saved...
10-19-2005, 04:17 PM
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Re: String Alignment Q (.RJ)
My method works fabulously. Electrical conduit, fishing line, couple of bits of hardware and no problems whatsoever squaring the box since you are always starting with a parallelogram. You can even drive the car around with jig attached to settle the suspension and check for final alignment.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=597192
Just add one of these and you are doing it like the pros.
http://www.mktechnologies.com/
At least half the teams I saw at the 2005 Mosport ALMS/World Challenge weekend seemed to be using MK Technolgies stuff for alignment.
and if you can't afford the $125 for a lifetime tool, use your tape measure.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=597192
Just add one of these and you are doing it like the pros.
http://www.mktechnologies.com/
At least half the teams I saw at the 2005 Mosport ALMS/World Challenge weekend seemed to be using MK Technolgies stuff for alignment.
and if you can't afford the $125 for a lifetime tool, use your tape measure.
10-20-2005, 11:27 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q
10-20-2005, 12:49 PM
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Re: String Alignment Q (descartesfool)
I was wondering if you had any issues or worries about your conduit bending? The MK folks use square tubing for their own version of the string setup, and I would imagine that it would be more resistant to bending.
After seeing how relatively easily my 1" EMT tubing bent, I have to wonder how much abuse the 1/2" that you use can take before bending and becoming fairly useless?
TIA
After seeing how relatively easily my 1" EMT tubing bent, I have to wonder how much abuse the 1/2" that you use can take before bending and becoming fairly useless?
TIA
10-21-2005, 11:44 AM
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Re: String Alignment Q (descartesfool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My method works fabulously. Electrical conduit, fishing line, couple of bits of hardware and no problems whatsoever squaring the box since you are always starting with a parallelogram. You can even drive the car around with jig attached to settle the suspension and check for final alignment.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=597192
Just add one of these and you are doing it like the pros.
http://www.mktechnologies.com/
At least half the teams I saw at the 2005 Mosport ALMS/World Challenge weekend seemed to be using MK Technolgies stuff for alignment.
and if you can't afford the $125 for a lifetime tool, use your tape measure.</TD></TR></TABLE>
KICK A**!!!
Order placed for that toe/camber gauge plus the SmartTool module, and I talked to Marty (the guy behind it all) for a bit. He's already made a string setup for a Miata....he'll be sending me photos of it for consideration as well.
(As we discussed Miatas in general and the upcoming Pro Miata series and I mentioned that it was probably a bit out of my current budget, Marty told me to take a peek at the Honda-Michelin series from Canada - apparently the guys running that do pretty decent selling off their used cars. Hmmm.....)
Oh yeah - Visa loves me.
Jarrod
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=597192
Just add one of these and you are doing it like the pros.
http://www.mktechnologies.com/
At least half the teams I saw at the 2005 Mosport ALMS/World Challenge weekend seemed to be using MK Technolgies stuff for alignment.
and if you can't afford the $125 for a lifetime tool, use your tape measure.</TD></TR></TABLE>
KICK A**!!!
Order placed for that toe/camber gauge plus the SmartTool module, and I talked to Marty (the guy behind it all) for a bit. He's already made a string setup for a Miata....he'll be sending me photos of it for consideration as well.
(As we discussed Miatas in general and the upcoming Pro Miata series and I mentioned that it was probably a bit out of my current budget, Marty told me to take a peek at the Honda-Michelin series from Canada - apparently the guys running that do pretty decent selling off their used cars. Hmmm.....)
Oh yeah - Visa loves me.
Jarrod
10-21-2005, 02:08 PM
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Re: String Alignment Q (SJR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SJR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was wondering if you had any issues or worries about your conduit bending? The MK folks use square tubing for their own version of the string setup, and I would imagine that it would be more resistant to bending.
After seeing how relatively easily my 1" EMT tubing bent, I have to wonder how much abuse the 1/2" that you use can take before bending and becoming fairly useless?
TIA</TD></TR></TABLE>
Conduit can flex or bend a little and this has no effect on accuracy, since it doesn't change distance from string to wheel centres. It hasn't permanently bent yet with fishing line type of tension and occasional bumping, and on and off many times and taken in and out of storage, but I am usually careful since I don't want to have to check square often and just get the job done. I have in the shop some nice 1" square aluminum extrusion I bought for version 2 of simple strings, with some other improvements including self retracting lines. Maybe this winter since I didn't get to that last winter!
After seeing how relatively easily my 1" EMT tubing bent, I have to wonder how much abuse the 1/2" that you use can take before bending and becoming fairly useless?
TIA</TD></TR></TABLE>
Conduit can flex or bend a little and this has no effect on accuracy, since it doesn't change distance from string to wheel centres. It hasn't permanently bent yet with fishing line type of tension and occasional bumping, and on and off many times and taken in and out of storage, but I am usually careful since I don't want to have to check square often and just get the job done. I have in the shop some nice 1" square aluminum extrusion I bought for version 2 of simple strings, with some other improvements including self retracting lines. Maybe this winter since I didn't get to that last winter!
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