mattbatson

SCHROTH RACING > Professional Racing Harnesses

and

SCHROTH RACING > Professional Racing Harnesses

for my 8th gen si, bone stock, daily driver...that I ocassionally take to track days and autocrosses.
I'm running it at road atlanta this coming weekend for a pdx and was hoping to install something like this to help with movement in the seat.

Tried a cg lock, but they do not make them for my seatbelt design. I did install the cg on my eg hatch and it did help, but my upper torso still moved about and I was still hanging onto the wheel.

It looks like the rallye 3 bolts to the stock seat belt reel up on the back tray or some such...

This is my daily driver, grocery getter, 5 yr old transporter...so I cannot run harness bars or roll bars, etc.

anyone run one of these? How did you install it and how easily did it go in? did it hold you in your seat effectively?

thx

Ev

As an instructor and safety worker I say no.

I know it says ASM, but I dont trust it. Also the shoulder belt attaches to the rear seat belt bolt. That makes for a really long distance and a bad angle to your shoulder. The angle could cause spinal compression in a frontal impact, and the belt stretch with the long distance may not hold you in during a secondary impact.

Finally, some groups don't allow them for these reasons. Sorry...

mattbatson

i actually ordered the rallye 3 as time is short...

the rallye 3 doesnt have that dangerous angle down that could compress the spine...it attaches up high, like it would with a roll bar.

I have gone around and around on this, and in the end I think it will be safe...but that is why I asked on here to see if anyone had run these...

thx for the input.

Ev

The more important question you need answered is "Has anyone crashed with one of these?"

For autocross, I would be fine as hitting something hard is rare, and the speeds are lower. For open track, I'm convinced that this is less safe than stock belts.

It's your choice really. I just hope you don't have to find out the hard way.

Xian

My $0.02 but I wouldn't touch a 3-4 point belt for anything besides autox. Too much risk of submarining to make it worth it to me.

Are you able to give the stock belts a sharp tug to lock them before you go on track? I've done this with my EG/DC cars for ages... Basically tightens up the belts and then hook your feet under the pedals to scoot forward a little more after the belt is locked.

mattbatson

Supposedly these belts are crash tested and there is video of it on their site.

DOT approved and FMVSS 209 approved...whatever that means

These belts are ASM, or anti submarine, and they have been selling these things for many years....which is why I figured somebody might have experience with them

I don't know, but it looked promising to me so I ordered it

I did try the yank the belt to lock then slide forward but to slide the seat forward you need to bend forward to grab the seat slider handle...so it doesn't work. However I may try leaning the seat back and then leaning forward

Matt_EH3

I ran a Rallye 4 for a few years for autocross and it was perfectly fine (although you can argue that I have never crashed with it, so what do I know).

I also ran it for half a track season, but I had a 4 pt roll bar. Still, I never really felt safe with it. Even with the ASM, with the lack of a crotch belt, I found that it was really easy to improperly buckle it up. Even when following the instructions/procedures from Schroth, it would creep up (or I would sink, not really sure) after bouncing up and down in the seat after a few laps. Maybe they are just not designed for track-dedicated cars with very stiff suspensions, though.

I definitely would not run one on the track without a roll bar, but that's just me.

vvolcano

I have a pair of Rallye 3 harnesses installed in my Prelude, and I'm an HPDE instructor. To each their own, but I feel confident in the belts if they are properly installed in the car and equipped properly on the person. If a student or passenger is uncomfortable with the belts, the stock belts are still installed as well that I can use.

They help tremendously with keeping you in the seat and really reduce the need to have to brace yourself with the steering wheel and your legs which in turn increases your safety by reducing fatigue and improving sensory feedback and sensitivity. I'd say they give you 70% of what a 5/6pt harness with a race seat does in terms of effort reduction.

It was quite an easy installation in the Prelude, and I utilized the rear seat belt reel location. The interior of my car is stripped out so that made it a bit easier I'm sure. If you decide to go this route, just follow the Schroth instructions exactly and it should be relatively painless. Since the rear mount will be offset from center, the rear strap connector should be bent ONCE to help correct that (which is per Schroth).

vvolcano

That absolutely should not happen. I know if I have students ride along in my car, I always have to tighten the belts way more than they think is correct or enough. Generally I tell students the belts should be tight enough that at first you feel like you can't breath! Not saying you didn't do that, but they do need to be extremely tight.

mattbatson

That is good news...thanks for the input. I was beginning to think I made a bad purchase


I'll be sure to give a quick review after nov 2nd

Xian

The "creep" was the problem that I ran into. From the driver seat, I couldn't get the lap belts tight enough to keep them from riding up as I tightened (and then re-tightened) the shoulder belts. The result was a lap belt that was closer to my navel than my hips. No issues running the 4pt belts for autoX but I just don't think they're particularly safe or comfortable on track.

I wouldn't sweat the rollbar but I know I'm in the minority on that one. Personally, I'd prefer the protection of 5pt belts for head on hits and accept the (minimal) risk of rollover compression injuries...

scottdh20

Asside from the asm which they may hwve figured out with a 4point....scroth knows there ****.... What i worry about is rollover protection

A stock 3 point allows the people to duck to the side during a roof colapse. During a autox yeah chance of a rollover is almost non existant...but for lapping or the street id be worried. Thats the main reason for needing a cage/bar vs a harness bar....a harness bar offers the belts to be at proper angle but in a roll over locks you into an upright position and does not allow you to duck from a roof collapse. A cage prevents the roof colapse..

Xian

Meh on roof collapse. It can happen, sure but the odds of it are SUPER low at a DE. Hitting something (wall/tires) head-on where a 5pt belt and H&N would be advantageous is way more likely. That's without even looking at the chassis differences... something like an EF roof is way more likely to crumple up than the newer stuff out there with additional rigidity.

scottdh20

Well since most of us honda guys are driving around ef, eg,ek,dc etc....they are little tin cans...i would be worried....rollover at a DE is highly unlikely....but i also race at a very safe track(gingerman) lots of run off almost no walls (hot pit lane next to the front strait being the only one) that being said im fairly new to this. That said i have seen several accidents i would be worried about improper fitting securment whether stock or aftermarket

Xian

Yep, I've run DC-R's most for DE's and I feel like they're fairly stout. Same thing with the EK and (to a lesser extent the EG). The EF's that I've owned are the only ones that felt a little more tin can-ish to me. But, like all things safety related, YMMV and different folks have different levels of acceptable risk.

Matt_EH3

I don't mean to scare anyone, but am I the only one on here who has seen rollovers at autocrosses and DEs? Maybe I have been around for too long.

I have to admit that a rollover at auto-x speed usually does not end up with the roof caving in, which is why I am personally ok with using one w/o a roll bar for auto-x.

As for the lap belt creeping up on the Rallye 4, it could be a combination of a seat that was not meant to receive the belt and the fact that I am quite thin. And trust me, I wear belts pretty snug (probably tighter than most people).

Xian

I've seen rollovers at DE's and near rollovers at AutoX. The incidence of rollovers is *way* lower than that of folks running out of talent and ending up in the tires... and the incidence of rollovers where the roof structure is crushed enough to make a multi-point harness a detriment is even yet lower. I'd rather plan my safety gear around a combination of the most common and dangerous crashes rather than point to an outlier possibility as a reason not to run a better harness.

This all being said, I run the stock stuff for autoX/DE "because street car".

gramkrackers

I am surprised you find the stock Si seats not up to the task for light lapping use. I have done quite a few laps around various tracks in a friends CSX Type S, which has leather seats similar to a non Si 8th gen Civic, and I had no issues at all. I find the 8th gen Si seats to be one of the best parts of the car, I love lapping in those cars, its a lot of fun for some reason.

As for the Schroth belts, as an instructor, if a student had them in a car I was going to get in, I would be using the stock belts or declining to get in the car.

mattbatson

I only ordered belts for the driver...and do not plan on having a passenger...

I realize there is always a chance of a roll over, but I will take that risk considering that I'm driving a newer car, not an ef or eg, and that I'm only really driving around at about 80%

This is literally my one new car that we are still paying off (75k miles) and I'm running it on the same street tires it gets driven on to the grocery store, etc.

It is a track day, not a race, no trophies...so I leave a lot on the table, shift early, etc...

I truly do drive at a very, very comfortable pace for me, and there tends to be little chance of putting a wheel off or such when I do these.

The stock si seats do a pretty good job, but I guess I'm one who prefers very little movement...I have to brace with my knee and even that doesnt help much in transitions.
I've always been pretty picky about seating position and steering wheel/position. I can get by with the stock seat and belts, and have for a few track days and autocrosses, but was searching for something better

dath1974

I use a Schroth Rallye 3 in my 2013 Si. As far as the function of holding me in the seat, I feel it does an awesome job. I leave the lap belt portion pre-adjusted for how tight I need it and then move my seat back, latch it, and slide the seat forward rapidly. I get it as tight or tighter that way than readjusting it or trying to buckle it with the seat already positioned. After that step, then I tighten each shoulder strap good and snug. Never have any movement or need to brace and the belt doesn't ride up at all.

I can't really comment on safety in an accident or add much to that. What I can say though is that you should be careful with how it is installed and make sure that if you use the lower attachment point in the rear that your seat is on the approved list. I choose to use my upper reel attachment in the rear which seems to work really well for me. I've heard of people using the LATCH point. I would *NEVER* do that.

mattbatson

I tried to attach it to the upper reel mount, but was unable to get it done in time for the event, which I leave for in a few hours...
I tried to remove that rear speaker tray and it wouldnt budge.
there must be some trick?

love to hear how you got access to that upper mount

thanks

dath1974

I had to pull the covers from the rear pillars and I think I may have had to also pull the left side of the seat back off as well (which had to be pulled out partway to provide access to a 10mm bolt toward the bottom if I recall correctly). It was all pretty straight forward, just lots of careful tugging of panels...

The part I ran into issues with was the left lower mount next to the drivers seat. That was a major pain to get the bolt back into again due to too much tension from one of the other things that was mounted under it... Took me about an hour before I pulled some more parts of the panel out and managed to get it to line up again. It was also very hot that day, so I wasn't too happy by the time I finished... I was close to pulling the whole drivers seat out to make more room when I finally got it...

scottdh20

have you tried a seat belt lock?

this is what I plan on for my s2k until I decide to go with a roll bar

https://modifry.com/products/sbl/index.htm

mattbatson

that looks pretty cool
please post up a review when you get it

TunerN00b

I'm late to this party here, but my solution for staying in the damn leather seats of my GSR for auto-x and HPDE use was simply to twist the belt. Pull across lap, reduce length to something that will be a challenge to clip in, twist it twice, exhale, jam buckle into clip, call it good. This leaves the lap belt super tight and preventing it from riding up while still allowing the shoulder belt to do it's normal thing.