Sparksman

Hey, so Im very interested in starting to attend autoX events when I finish my build. Im more then likely going to have to wait until next race season before its ready . Anyhow Im at the point where Im looking at buying a suspension, and had some questions and would like some advice.

First off my intention is not to be competitive, I just want a Safe, Fun, and Legal way to enjoy my car to its limits without fear of tickets. From my understanding you can have a passenger and would be a fun night out with a buddy, by yourself, or with your girl.

Im not sure which class Im going to be thrown into. Im just out for fun though, and going against personal times. I think Im going to be stuck in a VERY competitive class LOL...

My car is a 1994 Prelude Vtec model Its not finished but heres a quickie list of the major parts.

-SIR H23a Vtec w/ 11.5:1 should be around 220+whp before spray.
-S2 Pro 1 cams, or thinking about a custom cut autoX set from DDTech.
-balance shaft delete
-8lbs flywheel
-Exedy stage 2 clutch
-T2W4 LSD trans "euro-r"
-Neptune and plans to have tuned by SpeedFactory, they are local.
-Fully built Euro-R intake mani
-340lph fuel pump w/ acura RDX K-series injectors and areomotive FPR
-68mm TB w/ Injen true CAI
-75 shot of dry n2o ------------"NOT really for autox, only freeway."
-I plan on buying some Falken Azenis 205/55/15 "or 16, havent bought rims yet"


The Vtec model was like the type-S/R of this gen. They came factory w/ these and extra options and features.
-Disc brakes F/R
-Over sized rotors
-duel piston calipers
-Duel wishbone suspension F/R
-Has a 58% front weight bias to the front
-car weighs 2,900lbs with me in it, 2,700 curb.
-F/R sway bars

Now my suspension Q's!

My budget is around $1000, and from all the reading it seems a set of Koni Yellow with some Ground Control coil sleeves is the best suspension set up in my price range.

Now springs, Since there is a 58% bias for the front I want to run stiffer springs in the rear to induce more oversteer to achieve a more neutral balance.

Im not one to bitch about ride comfort, my cars going to be a vibrator on wheels I understand. But as of right now Im thinking 450lbs springs up front and 550lbs springs in the rear.

Ive also read removing the front sway helps in cornering, and adding a larger sway to the rear would make it even stiffer. Now in combination of all of these do you guys think this may be overkill?

I dont snap oversteer, but im confused on what qualifies as "too high" of spring rates for my car.

I know Preludes arent the ideal AutoX car, but the ONLY reason I ever got into Honda was my Prelude, its just sexy looking lol.

I hope I gave enough info, and thanks for the help in advance!

Xian

I'll wade in with a suggestion... take the car out "as is" and see how it drives before throwing parts at it. For autoX specifically (and racing in general), the driver makes a tremendous difference in lap times... far more than parts in most cases. As a new driver, what you're comfortable with setup-wise will likely be quite a bit different from the "fast" setup for that particular car. Additionally, there are a bunch of different ways to skin the FWD-handling cat. Big rear rates and big bar, medium rear rates and bigger bar, tire stagger, rear camber/toe, etc.

Given your car and experience level, I'd recommend you go with a front stiff setup and basically reverse the rates you mention above. Make sure the car isn't slammed and has at least 3/4-1" shock travel before getting into the bumpstops when it's sitting on the ground. You don't have nearly enough front spring rate to get rid of your front swaybar, keep it. A bigger rear bar will definitely help loosen the car on entry and then put down power on exit. Think of this as "part 2" of your suspension build after you start running consistent laps if the car is too pushy without it.

Now get out to an event and have fun!

Robin6

Yeah, leave it alone and get some seat time prior to any investments...xian nailed it. Doing so will save you monies.

azVTECaccord

and after some cheap & serious seat time, my bet is $1000 in tires alone will be way faster than new suspension, euro intake manifold, dry shot, or any other random *** part...

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

X3

Sparksman

I may be new to the sport of auto cross but Im a pretty decently experienced driver, just new to the track. Ive driven the car for awhile in stock form. Theres alot of rural windy mt. roads around here, and I pushed my car regularly and know what its capable of.

The problem is im in the middle of the swap, all of the engine upgrades are pretty much set in stone, but I cant test drive yet.

The reason I was going to go stiffer in the rear springs over the front is because thats what seems to be what other prelude guys like to run on theirs. That seems to be a popular set up for these cars. Wouldnt increasing my front springs more then the rear increase the understeer?

At this point I need new springs and shocks at bare minimum right now, Im still wounder about what spring rates would be best in combination with the others. I can hold off on sway bar modding until I have a feel for how the car feels once its up and running. I also do plan on at least 1-2 degrees neg camber up front. I dont plan on slamming it, although a inch or two lower would be nice.


Hey Im NOT some 16 year old punk who is slapping random **** on his car. You dont need to come in here and be condescending. Im asking legitimate questions about how to properly set up my suspension.

I already stated the spray was for freeway cruising only, and Im buying some Falken Azenis tires If you bothered to read my post.

Yep I bet this intake of mine is just gunna make my car all that much slower huh?

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Heyyyyyyyyyyyy back down there man.
You didnt mention to anyone in your first post what your experience level was.
Since you are here asking the questions you should do more hearing and less getting mad.
Your post isnt any different than any noob be it young or old that ask us the same questions about setting up a car.
We have seen this thousands of times.
Getting offended is a sure fire way to get flamed.
FYI go fast parts dont equate to going fast.
Its the driver that does all that.
Seat time and good tires do make a difference for a beginer.
Trust me i can name off a few dozen drivers right now who can eat your lunch in a single cam D16 powered car vs your super lude...
Slow down with the go fast parts and learn to drive fast.
Also we dont condone any spirited driving on the streets or canyons or anywhere else you can cause an innocent victim their life.
We see too many young kids at the track doing that already.
So lets start this over and keep the focus on advice and listening.

Sparksman

lol I didnt mean to come off as I was pissed, more sarcastic. It was directed towards him not you guys sorry. I appretiate the help! I see how my first post may have been a little misleading but I was only trying to be friendly. I was trying to ask a legit question, not start problems.

I know driver skill has more to do with speed then the car. Im building this as just a fun car to drive for a few years. Its no "super lude" haha, and not saying its going to be super fast either. Speed in a strait line is only how much money you throw into something.

The reason why I want to start autoX is to get off the streets. The N2o is for a once in a blue moon type deal, maybe if im late to work lol. Not like im out looking for races, only ever been in a couple. But I know my car is going to be in a class I cant compete in, so I want to upgrade the suspension to not be spanked too bad... Need a new suspension anyhow it been past due, and im on a budget due to the whole swap im doing.

Again I appreciate the help!

Xian

Look at it this way... Pretend that you're in the "all motor" forum or wherever and some guy comes in asking if A+B+C parts are the bestest for the new drag car he's building. The experts relate their real world, first hand experience that, although the parts *can* work well, maybe he should start with a more basic/beginner approach and build up to his 9 second car. He responds back that he's done tons of street racing from a roll so nobody should discount his experience (even though it's amateur night stuff and not on a race track).

That's you. And that's us. Right now, you're so new that you don't even know what you don't know.

I'm telling you. The "fast" setup for your car will be unstable, difficult to drive, and frustrating to a novice Autocrosser. Go with a stuff front setup to start. When you can *feel* the understeer and what the car is doing, revalve the shocks, get different springs, and then a bigger rear bar.

Christian

PS
If you're convinced that you need the "fast" setup, go with 750/600 and a tree trunk sized (custom) Speedway rear bar. Get the shocks revalved. Ditch the Azenis and get Rivals instead. But *please* don't complain to the group when you back your car into a ditch or off the side of the mountain.

90_EX_Civic

fixed that for ya.

if he's gonna go big, go really big.

PanchoEK

I am also a complete novice this year, but I intend to be that way this year and maybe even next year, car is completely stock motor wise(d16y7 maybe 100hp) and just a basic suspension set up, I told myself that I wanted to see what my car can do and how it would handle with the set up I have now and then to a b-series swap, no way am I an expert but I would recommend A LOT of seat time. that's what I have done even on steelies with crappy tires, but as soon as I upgraded to some R-compound I felt an immediate difference, this is just from one noob to another, so go out and have fun and see what you car can do with what you have now and then see what things you and your car can improve on

Xian

LOL. True... but who can afford R-comps when you have that sort of $$ tied up in the engine?

PS
I saw some recent data logs for the Rival vs. Hoosier. Lateral grip wasn't more than a couple 10ths off. Longitudinal grip (especially under acceleration) appears to be a slightly bigger gap though. Pretty interesting how the gap continues to tighten... and then you have the BFG R1S that's supposed to be better than an A6. I'll go out on a limb and predict a new Hoosier compound for next season.

90_EX_Civic

yea, i hear ya.

one of the old time national champs that runs at one of the local events was complaining because he couldn't keep up with the vetts in SS, yet he was faster then almost everyone else, in raw time.

said if he could have justified the cost, he would have replaced his old A6's.

my reaction, . HS mini keeping up with, and beating most of the cars with hoosiers.

Sparksman

I know I have a serious lack of knowledge when it comes to on track performance. Thats why Im in here asking Q's. Im trying to bounce some knowledge off you guys who take it serious and see what works and what doesnt. What you read sometimes and real world performance arent always the same. Thats why I included "noob" in my title. Im not a noob to building engines, but how the different components of the suspension work together in syncro is still new to me.

Thats what I want to prevent is the snap oversteer, but I still want the car to handle better then it was previously. So at what spring stiffness do you start to consider it a "fast" set up?

Xian

To get a FWD car to rotate, you effectively have to "throw away" grip at the rear end. You try to maximize the front and then throw away as much as is reasonable to balance the car and loosen it up. To an experienced driver, and barring an intentionally bad setup, your Prelude will never snap oversteer. Will it try to spin if you come off the throttle with the car in a turn? Sure. Will it spit you into the ditch if you hit the brakes mid-corner? Absolutely. But that's what it *should* do with a "fast" setup. That loose, fast setup allows you to get on the gas early in a corner and still adjust line/balance easily.

This elusive "fast" setup isn't a specific spring rate. Rather, it's the balance between front and rear grip. Toss massive front rates on your car and it may be difficult to loosen up the rear because the *front* can't generate any substantial grip. Toss really low rates on the front and you still may not be able to generate much grip because you'll be on the bumpstops constantly. Your prelude isn't far off an Integra in weight split front to rear. Yes, it weighs a touch more but they're pretty similar in dimensions. Try some rates in the 400-500 range and see what you think. Don't slam the car, DO measure shock travel. Once you have some experience with the setup, come back and tell us what it's doing right/wrong and we'll be happy to offer suggestions.

Sparksman

Ok I see, what you say makes sense. I plan on buying a set of Koni yellows in the near future with the GC's. Dont intend on slamming, but whats the minimum amount of shock travel needed?

So I wasnt all to far off of spring rates, just would be better keeping it stiffer in the front until I have a few seasons of racing under my belt is what Im hearing. Pretty much I was originally looking at a more aggressive set up then I really need at the moment. I mainly dont want to fly off a cliff... Which is a possibility on some of the roads around here...lol Is there a benefit to running same rate F/R?

Whats your opinion on chassis stiffeners, worth the money? I have duel wishbone so dont need a front tower bar, but nuespeed makes a 4 point brace for my car. Or what about rear tower, or tie bars?

Robin6

Hey Sparksman,
Autox provided me a better understanding of car control or lack of on my part...lol
Playing with car setup at the beginning provided a tiny bit of improvement, but it was the continuous seat time that gave me better times over any upgrades to the car. I also found that the more I had "fun" with autox, the more relaxed I became, the more I bettered my times as a byproduct.

For me, having a stock car at the beginning was more fun, I learned more about car control and what it feels like as the car became out of control. Autox is a great learning platform.

What you are doing with mods are not looked down on, you are just starting off with a more refined platform over others. This may or may not give you an advantage pending on how your car control is with the mods you have made or are making. Finish it up to your liking and learn it as you would if it were stock like most of us do.

You are going to have a blast autoxing. Keep it fun and learn how to feel what the car is "telling" you... For me it took a longer time to understand what the car was telling me and how to adjust to what it was telling me. Once you get a good at "listening" to what the car is providing as feedback, your adjustments to the modification you have made or are making to your car will become very useful...happy car and diver will become one.

Sorry for the rant... keep it fun!

Robin6

Dont know about the intake mani making you slower, but the TB might like it did on my b18c5 setup when the butterfly started to get stuck with high temps under the hood...what a bummer that track day was...just saying. Watch out with the cold idle screw on the TB as well, mine broke off.

Sparksman

Ya I cant wait to get out there! I understand starting with a stocker and working your way up is the proper rout, may even be competitive. But I was already knee deep in my build when I found out about autoX. Ive always had a thing for 4th gen preludes, its the car I want. I also want it built for fun, but there are strict regulations about mods.

More or less most people build their car for a specific class. I built my car for "me" and just want to go run it on the track lol. My whole reason to getting into it is for a legal, and safe place to open the car up a bit without getting a ticket. Thats why Im not trying to be competitive, I bet im going to get spanked by every car in what ever class i qualify for.

Robin6

Being in a class within autox is one thing but bettering your times should be your main focus.

After spending time in autox, kind-a like you, Ive built a track car for "me", not built to any class for competition, it was done as a hobby. Its built mainly for safety and rigidity. I took all I learned and applied it to that track car. Im having a blast bettering my times on track like I was doing in autox, I just have a longer and way faster track now over autox. So all the car control learning I had are being applied on track, however, the car is talking to me much faster and when I get it wrong, its in a way more scary way.

Anywho! Get some seat time! Rent a car if yours is not done yet...lol.

Sparksman

So theres only a few big ticket items I need before my cars up and running.

Biggest are the suspension, wheels/tires, and the cams. I still need a bit of smaller items, but like I said Its a few months out from being road worthy. Hell the engine isnt even in the car or assembled yet

So Ive been convinced to go stiffer in the front, and maybe 100lbs less in rear with the koni yellows and GC's. Then just drive the car for a good while until I realy get a feel for it. --Xian I seen you already said 3/4-1 inch on shock travel, sorry for missing that.

I was going to get the falkens, ive heard both good and bad things about them. Those Rivals are only like $20 bucks more a tire I see. If you guys believe they are worth it I may give them a try, Ive never heard of them before.

That takes care of suspension and wheels. I also was woundering about me being a ballast in the car lol.... Im not overweight really, but im 6'3 and weight 240lbs. Im not a small guy, and in a small car doesnt that change my weight bias more towards the back? Is that something to consider?

Also which cams do you guys run? Im looking into a set of Pro 1's just because there the best go to off the shelf cam for H-series guys. They are about $600 for a set, but I feel they are geared more towards the 1/4 mile strait line crowed. The power band would be in the upper R's. DDTech here on H-T can custom tailor cut a set of autoX cams for my car for about $850 which im really considering. If it would increase my power under curve it may be a very well spent extra $250.

Thats why I bought and modded a Euro-R intake. They are well known to give awesome mid range power on the H-series. Pretty much the best N/a intake you can buy unless your above8-9K in the R's. The Euro-R starts be be restricting around 8K. I wont take the H23a past 8K because its got a longer stroke then a base h22a. So the intake and engine compliment each other.

Heres a pic of my car just to show you what im working on.

Robin6

Regarding cams. Changing that will def put you into a very competitive category. Also think about how fast an autox event tends to remain at, 2 or 3rd gear mostly, so you will be reving it pretty high more then not. Maybe a high end cam is more suitable???

Xian

Couple thoughts...

Chassis stiffeners. Typically don't help much but if you like them then go for it.

Tires. Azenis aren't bad tires. Rivals are better. The Z2 is great as well. So is the RE-11A. The Azenis is at the lower end of the extreme performance tire range. Realistically though, as a noob, they won't be your limiting factor.

Travel. The stiffer the springs, the less travel you'll use, so the lower the car can go.

Cams. For autoX in particular, look for area under the curve vs peak #'s. Yes, autoX has a bunch of stuff that's the top end of 2nd but it also typically has one or two "dig" corners where you've to to pull from the bottom of 2nd. Go for midrange and overall power. At the power you'll be making, you're likely to be traction limited in most of second (on street tires) since it's rare that you're not turning at least a little bit while accelerating.

Build what you want how you want it. "Competitve" classing of your build only matters if finishing order is important to you. Don't be surprised though that you'll be running against much faster cars...

Have fun. Ask more experienced drivers if you can ride with them. Ask them if they can ride with you. Have fun.

Robin6

90_EX_Civic

should add, ask if they can drive your car. your eyes will be wide open, and you'll see the difference.