rice_classic

::UPDATE 1/20/15::

Thanks to SynchroTech/Mfactory for their time and attention. I sent my previous LSD back to Synchrotech and they took it upon themselves to determined that the previous LSD (OBX) had 0.017" runout. It is likely that this was a factor in the gear wear below in combination with fluid choice. The FD and LSD will both be new Mfactory units and the fluid used for the next season will be Torco. However, Torco MTF has a lower 100C cSt measurement than the Pennzoil SM I was using and Torco RTF is has a higher cSt rating (thicker) than other gear oils that Mfactory recommends against using on the basis they are too thick. I am going to Email Torco to see what input they can offer on why their RTF isn't too thick and their MTF isn't too thin.


::ORIGINAL POST::

It was time to build a new engine for the ITA CRX and I thought I may as well put some new synchros in the tranny and upgrade the LSD. The tranny has been run with the Mfactory 4.7FD for a few seasons now so let's see how robust it is when being bombarded with the 120hp D16a6! Personally I expect a car making that little HP to be pretty easy on things in the drive train (no standing launches BTW). Point of Reference I am upgrading to the Mfactory Metal Plate LSD.

The Mfactory 4.7FD has been treating me well for some time. But now I'm looking at pitting on the ring and wear on teeth of the final drive. This doesn't make me happy. I'm not doing drag launches and I'm not making big power (barely making any power TBH).

Look at these photos.. Is this FD something:

• that can continue being run,
• worn accordingly for its age and should be replaced,
• worn prematurely and should have already been replaced
• or is it a case of "OMG, you're lucky you're alive?!"

DRIVE SIDE:




COAST SIDE:

trinib20

even thought the items are not under warranty

Contact Mfactory

Runnerdown

The gears are shot, do not continue to use them. We could speculate all day about the reason for high wear but it's all guesses unless they are sent to a high $$ metallurgist for analysis.

shane(showtime)

iTrader: (1)

Just email them and they will be im sure more than happy to discuss the details. I personally have been running there 5.1 Final drive for 2 seasons with 3 track days and no issues. But Im not racing like you are at all

They are pretty darn good at helping people out.

Good luck

Xian

I'm not a tranny expert but that looks like some pretty nasty wear. What sort of fluid were you running?

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

X2 would want to know what you are using.

rice_classic

Pennzoil Synchromesh, changed often or in emergencies, dino 10w-30 as per Bonespec. I'm not a gear banger either. Once I tried Redline and Amsoil MTL and quickly got rid of those as they didn't allow the synchros to work well.

Everything else in the transmission looks mint. Bearings, synchros, collars, gears.. The only thing that was wearing away was Ring/Pinion.

I will contact them tomorrow and see what comes from it. I have a hard time believing that my 98 ft/lbs of torque was too much for those gears. However, even with this going on, they did not outright fail and I did put in 4 good seasons so it's hard to be upset. After dropping $$$$ on their metal plate LSD and new synchros I wasn't planning on replacing the FD too.

Such is racing.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm reading about the Pennzoil It doesn't list a "Friction Modifier"
IDK what " a fluidity modifier, multifunctional performance additives, corrosion inhibitors, a foam suppressor and a shear stable viscosity index improver additive." is..
Maybe they hide it in the text above?

From the Pennzoil's site:

Pennzoil® Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid

Pennzoil® Synchromesh Fluid is a manual transmission fluid designed for certain manual transaxles and manual transmissions used by General Motors or Chrysler. Pennzoil® Synchromesh manual transmission fluid is formulated with high-quality paraffinic base stocks, a fluidity modifier, multifunctional performance additives, corrosion inhibitors, a foam suppressor and a shear stable viscosity index improver additive. It provides excellent oxidation stability, low-temperature performance, excellent synchronizer performance and compatibility with yellow metals, such as bronze, brass and copper components found in manual transaxles and transmissions. Synchromesh manual transmission fluid will satisfactorily lubricate General Motors or Chrysler manual transaxles and transmissions from -40 C to +150 C.

Not sure what to think about the oil. Cant say if it has a friction modifier or not, but the oils I have used in the past have all had Friction Modifiers.
Torco
RedLine
Motul
Soon to run Gear X Racing Gear Oil.

I'd call M Factory or Synchrotech and speak to James Ornelas at Synchrotech about your issue.
Synchrotech is an Mfactory reseller.

Roldan

I think you should put it back in and keep running it

The problem is likely their material choice "This kit is fully computer designed and CNC machined from high strength nickel alloy steel." Nickel alloys and other corrosion resistant materials are often not good wear materials. Corrosion resistance is not an issue in this application and there are probably better alloy steels intended for bearings, gears, etc. that they should be using. This is a bummer because I have a fresh one of these about to go in my car, now I wish I bought the ITR stuff.

Xian

Interesting. I've always run Castrol GTX 10w30 in my D-series boxes with some Synchromesh added to it and not had any trouble. That being said, I also had an ATS (IIRC) FD with an OPM/Eckerich diff.

I'd send the pics to mFactory and talk with them about the high wear since it does seem awfully premature.

David @ Synchrotech

iTrader: (1)

Normally this type of wear is from a lubrication issue rather than power. I had similar wear on some OEM gears in the trans we built for the Honda Research race team after a season of abuse. We added a WPC treatment to the gears and changed from Honda MTF to Torco RTF and that virtually eliminated the wear.


OP - I sent you a PM with a discounted price on a replacement set.

EdoMoto

I have been running MFactory final drives and LSD for years now and have only been using Torco RTF oil.
End of every season we take apart and inspect all parts everything is as good as the day we put in.


Edo

donut.

Yours is on it's way to look like mine buddy.

rice_classic

I'm not convinced it's a lubrication issue. Just not. I've seen the insides of several Honda boxes, several I've worked on, some that never changed their OEM fluid during a race season and I've never seen wear like this. I suspect Roldan is onto something.

But nonetheless, it's an aftermarket part that I'm racing with and I got 4 solid seasons with only "wear" as opposed to failure and out of goodwill they are treating me well on a replacement. I'm confident in the company and I'm looking forward to trying out their metal plate LSD. I just bought a case of Torco MTF. Since the D box doesn't make heat like the B or H boxes and I'm not making lots of power or endurance racing I figured the MTF would be just fine.

@Dirty: I wasn't previously using a clutch-style LSD so there's no need for a "friction modifier" which are only needed to reduce chatter at low speeds from plate-style LSDs. The synchros love Pennzoil as well as the bearings. The nice thing about it was its stability above 300F. Not that I saw those temps in my tranny but I was a lot more confident with the Pennzoil in there than just 10w-30 DINO or Honda MTF. My experience with Pennzoil in my various transmissions over the last decade is that things always come out looking like they did when they went in.. with this exception.

@Donut:

Runnerdown

I used to run Pennzoil synchromesh and oem mtf in track car transmissions but for many years now discontinued the use. The high heat after some time on the track really deteriorates the fluid badly. The applications were B and K's but gear wear was shockingly high, resulting in breakage especially on the K 6spd. The switch to motul and redline products extended the life of the gears by literally 5x or more.

kingofbattle909

iTrader: (6)

Thank you for sharing these findings. Hopefully Mfactory can chime in with deets.

I recommend using Torco, bcuz synchromesh changed their formula..amiwrong?

A lot of people are running a 50/50 rtf/mtf mix

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

A few seasons isn't bad considering the car is being raced.
We all know everything we put on our cars will have a point of failure at some time or another.

David @ Synchrotech

iTrader: (1)

Synchrotech (AKA MFactory R&D) is a partner company with MFactory and the R&D facility in the USA. I sent the pictures to the MFactory engineer for review and received this response:


What he is experiencing is called Hertzian Fatigue i.e Macropitting. If this happened early, then it is abornmal, but it has been running it for at least 4 years on his track car so there is going to be gear wear.

It is not a part failure nor bad mettalurgy. The only way to prolong this from happening is to reduce contact stress (e.g WPC) and increase lubrication film specific thickness (i.e use a better fluid)

Regarding material composition (i.e Nickel Alloy is bad), 100% of aftermarket performance gears on the market use Nickel Chromoly Steel, and for good reason: Nickel increase both the strength and toughness of a gear.

Roldan

With regard to material selection, it really depends on what is meant by "nickel alloy steel." Something like 4340 which is 1.65-2.00% Ni would be a reasonable choice for a gear while something like 304 stainless (8-10.5% Ni) would not be a good choice. I was initially alarmed by the word "nickel" and thought the material was something particularly high in nickel.

David @ Synchrotech

iTrader: (1)

Here are the specs from the MFactory website:


Made from imported Japanese SAE 8620 and 4320 Steel
Forged, Double Tempered and Super Sub-Zero treated for unsurpassed toughness
Advanced Shot Peening technology increases surface hardness
Advanced gear geometry designed using industry-leading software puts more power to the ground

CW-ITR

iTrader: (11)

Thanks for being so upfront and responsive. So, the verdict is the wrong used of oil. Does Mfactory has a specific oil that they recommends?

David @ Synchrotech

iTrader: (1)

Torco MTF or RTF

rice_classic

A: I don't think that's the verdict, yet. Even if it is, the reality will be more complex than that.

B: It shouldn't surprise you that they recommend the oil that they sell.


I will be doing my own independent testing of the hardness of the metals of the Mfactory FD compared with my OEM FD which showed no such wear over the same duration of time, use and fluid(s). However, the MF FD and the OEM FD make contact between the gears a bit differently and therefore have different contact stress.

Mfactory's metallurgy choice, combined with the increased contact stress of their part, may suggest their FD isn't "hard enough" for most Honda compatible fluids (low cSt fluids, low temp fluids). It will be very interesting to see the harness results of the two since hardness is one of the 3 critical aspects of Macro-pitting. AND this would make sense why they recommend a fluid with a higher specific film thickness.

The verdict very well could be that diff runout (can't confirm but suspect), installation (which I did) and fluid choice all played a part, maybe individually or maybe a combination. Nonetheless, Mfactory has done right by me so far and that I appreciate and I would recommend again.

rice_classic

I am curious though, more like confused about lubrication...

Mfactory really goes out of their way to convince us to NOT use "performance gear oil" in our transmissions (such as Amsoil MT Gear lube). That's not really new info to anyone here, however they then turn around and recommend Torco RTF which is essentially a 100% synthetic gear lube with the same properties as a 75w-90 performance gear lube. RTF even has a higher (thicker) cSt rating at 100C (13.9 vs 14.33).

I'm not suggesting I want to use Amsoil MT Gear. I am curious why Mfactory would effectively say: "Their oil is too thick, but our even thicker oil isn't!"

Also, the Mfactory engineers recommended reducing contact stress (WPC) or "using a better fluid" to prolong the use, which I'm assuming they mean a higher specific film thickness. The Torco MTF has a lower cSt rating than the Pennzoil Synchromesh. Wouldn't that suggest I would be going in the wrong direction by switching to Torco MTF?

However if I choose the RTF, by Mfactory's own admission, I'd be using a fluid that's too thick and will "clog the arteries with cholesterol".

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Just what kind of Diff are you using?