I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
#1
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Posts: 4,049
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
I didn't know it. That I'd been thinking about it. I wasn't thinking about it. Concerned about more important things I guess. Life and limb. That kind of thing.
And then one day...there was sunshine...and this was better...and that too. Not everything. No. Not everything.
And it just popped out...of my head. Well it didn't pop out. More in...popped in. An idea. In, from where, I have no idea. Perhaps there are trans-dimensional aliens waiting for me in The Zone and they want me to get my kaa done.
Yes. Sure. You think you know what idea it was. And while you'd be right, I would argue that it's just different enough to where you would be Wrong.
"Blah blah blah...technology...blah blah blah...development...blah blah blah...no longer throw away rear grip to balance the car...blah blah blah...rear steering...development...technology...blah blah blah...not lift...blah blah blah...not lift as much...blah blah blah....just barely lift...technology...development...blah blah blah". That's what I was hearing when last I heard it. Hadn't thought about it for months...many months. If asked I would have said I'd had enough. And then BAM!
Just what do you think you're doing when you keep that inside rear down by stiffening the front or softening the rear while you steer that outside rear out as you turn? Are you "throwing away grip"? No? Of course you're not. That's totally Not what you're doing. In fact you argue against the whole idea of throwing away grip at the end of the car that Is working. Yeah!
But in fact you are. It's the same thing. Except for the weight that could have been on the inside front. If you needed it. My kaa always seemed to need it.
What? Here: when you turn that outside rear wheel out you're asking and getting less from it, and consequently from the pair of wheels at that end of the car.
So here's what you're left to argue: "Well, ok, it's the same, but different. Advanced modern development has synergized a beneficial tradeoff amongst the various complexly interrelated parameters...blah blah blah...and you're just a caveman Scott". Or put more technically: asking and getting less is different than asking more and getting less, regardless of the equality of the amount gotten...and you're a cavemen if you can't see the difference. Oh. Does that difference show up in tire temperatures? Help keep those poor rears from overheating and the car oversteering after a few laps?
Scott, who Is a caveman...and I've been in my cave working on my kaa...things I haven't been thinking about are starting to make their way out of my mind...
And then one day...there was sunshine...and this was better...and that too. Not everything. No. Not everything.
And it just popped out...of my head. Well it didn't pop out. More in...popped in. An idea. In, from where, I have no idea. Perhaps there are trans-dimensional aliens waiting for me in The Zone and they want me to get my kaa done.
Yes. Sure. You think you know what idea it was. And while you'd be right, I would argue that it's just different enough to where you would be Wrong.
"Blah blah blah...technology...blah blah blah...development...blah blah blah...no longer throw away rear grip to balance the car...blah blah blah...rear steering...development...technology...blah blah blah...not lift...blah blah blah...not lift as much...blah blah blah....just barely lift...technology...development...blah blah blah". That's what I was hearing when last I heard it. Hadn't thought about it for months...many months. If asked I would have said I'd had enough. And then BAM!
Just what do you think you're doing when you keep that inside rear down by stiffening the front or softening the rear while you steer that outside rear out as you turn? Are you "throwing away grip"? No? Of course you're not. That's totally Not what you're doing. In fact you argue against the whole idea of throwing away grip at the end of the car that Is working. Yeah!
But in fact you are. It's the same thing. Except for the weight that could have been on the inside front. If you needed it. My kaa always seemed to need it.
What? Here: when you turn that outside rear wheel out you're asking and getting less from it, and consequently from the pair of wheels at that end of the car.
So here's what you're left to argue: "Well, ok, it's the same, but different. Advanced modern development has synergized a beneficial tradeoff amongst the various complexly interrelated parameters...blah blah blah...and you're just a caveman Scott". Or put more technically: asking and getting less is different than asking more and getting less, regardless of the equality of the amount gotten...and you're a cavemen if you can't see the difference. Oh. Does that difference show up in tire temperatures? Help keep those poor rears from overheating and the car oversteering after a few laps?
Scott, who Is a caveman...and I've been in my cave working on my kaa...things I haven't been thinking about are starting to make their way out of my mind...
#2
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,802
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
grip at any corner is completely useless if the tires never connect the car to the ground. I want the rears to overheat at the same rate as the fronts, keeping the balance throughout the race.
#4
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Cogito ergo sum, Canada
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
Just had my ITR dyno tuned last week, 301.4 WHP @ 11.2 psi boost on a Mustang Dyno, as I upgraded to a Hondata S300 with a wideband O2 sensor from an S200 so I can do some minor tweaks to it myself and datalog.
So my big worry is: will the rear tires be able to keep up with the fronts? Of course now my power is the same as those BTCC guys with their turbo engines this year, so I might have to look at a few more of their videos to gain some insight. Not tweaking the spring rates just yet. As for the rear tires getting some heat into them compared to the fronts, might need to add AWD for that to happen.
So my big worry is: will the rear tires be able to keep up with the fronts? Of course now my power is the same as those BTCC guys with their turbo engines this year, so I might have to look at a few more of their videos to gain some insight. Not tweaking the spring rates just yet. As for the rear tires getting some heat into them compared to the fronts, might need to add AWD for that to happen.
#5
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Posts: 4,049
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
Just had my ITR dyno tuned last week, 301.4 WHP @ 11.2 psi boost on a Mustang Dyno, as I upgraded to a Hondata S300 with a wideband O2 sensor from an S200 so I can do some minor tweaks to it myself and datalog.
So my big worry is: will the rear tires be able to keep up with the fronts? Of course now my power is the same as those BTCC guys with their turbo engines this year, so I might have to look at a few more of their videos to gain some insight. Not tweaking the spring rates just yet. As for the rear tires getting some heat into them compared to the fronts, might need to add AWD for that to happen.
So my big worry is: will the rear tires be able to keep up with the fronts? Of course now my power is the same as those BTCC guys with their turbo engines this year, so I might have to look at a few more of their videos to gain some insight. Not tweaking the spring rates just yet. As for the rear tires getting some heat into them compared to the fronts, might need to add AWD for that to happen.
Scott, who made Progress in the shop yesterday...and observed again, as ever, that the greatest obstacle to a better idea is the idea you don't question...and with so many of my better ideas being questionable you can see how I get into trouble...
#6
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,802
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
And that is sort of what I was saying, I have never had a problem with my rear tires going away faster than the fronts. Ever since leaving H4 and stock power levels behind my problem is that I have to manage my front tires. No matter the setup I can not drive "flatout" for the length of the race. Recently I have been trying to leave the front tire abuse for a few laps like a push to pass button, knowing that the car can not keep the ragged pace for long.
#7
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Posts: 4,049
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
And that is sort of what I was saying, I have never had a problem with my rear tires going away faster than the fronts. Ever since leaving H4 and stock power levels behind my problem is that I have to manage my front tires. No matter the setup I can not drive "flatout" for the length of the race. Recently I have been trying to leave the front tire abuse for a few laps like a push to pass button, knowing that the car can not keep the ragged pace for long.
Scott, who acknowledges that this stuff is hard to wrap your head around...thank goodness ideas are sticky like gorilla snot or my head would just keep slipping off...
Trending Topics
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
Scott I can has my chassis to go into vtak yo? So the Japanese were right all along with the front stiffer vs the rear and staggared stylee. I have never tried as I am stubborn and don't believe that is the answer, but maybe I should actually try and flip my spring rates front to rear and see if they (and you) really were on to something...
At 7:07 min I was going, OK maybe they have a different approach I should try with this setup. At 9 min I was going oh my, that wheel still lifts but the car looks pretty good from a visual standpoint. At 26:50 I got my answer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwRiPF_Qpcc
At 7:07 min I was going, OK maybe they have a different approach I should try with this setup. At 9 min I was going oh my, that wheel still lifts but the car looks pretty good from a visual standpoint. At 26:50 I got my answer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwRiPF_Qpcc
Last edited by JW racing; 05-02-2012 at 08:25 AM.
#9
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 3,788
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
So the White EK was the only one with stiff front/soft rear and by 26.5 min mark it was already leading and pulling away the whole time the driver is going on and on about how great it is.
The springs on the EK were 20kg F and 18kg R right? So that's 1120lb/F and 1008lb/R.
That's only a 112 lb split so it's not too extravagant.
Damnit, Now I'm considering putting the 800lb springs on the front of my CRX with the 750's in the rear. Could be fun.
The springs on the EK were 20kg F and 18kg R right? So that's 1120lb/F and 1008lb/R.
That's only a 112 lb split so it's not too extravagant.
Damnit, Now I'm considering putting the 800lb springs on the front of my CRX with the 750's in the rear. Could be fun.
#10
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
I run my springs on my EK with 100n/mm (~570lb/in) front and 70 N/mm (~400lb/in) rear, LX 22mm front bar and ASR 24mm rear bar. From what I was told at my last track day, I was still picking up my inside rear on the track. However, my car is set softer for tarmac rally so I'm driving on a lot bumpier roads and can't go with a super stiff rate.
I haven't really got too much into turning it for the track, but it did still feel real soft, which would probably explain the rear tire still picking up. I figured if I was to start tuning it for the track I would double my rates, which would give me 1140lb/in front and 800lb/in in the rear, which is only 200lb less than the Spoon car on the rear.
I haven't really got too much into turning it for the track, but it did still feel real soft, which would probably explain the rear tire still picking up. I figured if I was to start tuning it for the track I would double my rates, which would give me 1140lb/in front and 800lb/in in the rear, which is only 200lb less than the Spoon car on the rear.
#11
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Posts: 4,049
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
Scott I can has my chassis to go into vtak yo? So the Japanese were right all along with the front stiffer vs the rear and staggared stylee. I have never tried as I am stubborn and don't believe that is the answer, but maybe I should actually try and flip my spring rates front to rear and see if they (and you) really were on to something...
At 7:07 min I was going, OK maybe they have a different approach I should try with this setup. At 9 min I was going oh my, that wheel still lifts but the car looks pretty good from a visual standpoint. At 26:50 I got my answer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwRiPF_Qpcc
At 7:07 min I was going, OK maybe they have a different approach I should try with this setup. At 9 min I was going oh my, that wheel still lifts but the car looks pretty good from a visual standpoint. At 26:50 I got my answer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwRiPF_Qpcc
Scott, who has such a hard time telling when people are serious...anybody else have that problem?
#12
Honda-Tech Member
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
Im relativley new to racing suspension set ups and everywhere i go i can't help but notice the argument weather the rear should be soft or stiff
From my understanding a 20k front 18k rear setup would be a stiffer rear(relative to the front) considering that the front springs support the engine while the rear support much less
There in the rear springs would feel stiffer since they would compress much less since there is very little weight on them.
Again this is just my understanding and im relativley new and do not have much experience with the topic
From my understanding a 20k front 18k rear setup would be a stiffer rear(relative to the front) considering that the front springs support the engine while the rear support much less
There in the rear springs would feel stiffer since they would compress much less since there is very little weight on them.
Again this is just my understanding and im relativley new and do not have much experience with the topic
#13
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: where i stunt SAND CANYON in Southern California
Posts: 2,795
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
then why did the itr come with a bigger rear sway bar? and handles better then a gsr ?
#14
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Posts: 4,049
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
Scott, who would remove them but is afraid...like I'm afraid to cut the tags off mattresses and pillows...
Last edited by RR98ITR; 05-02-2012 at 05:23 PM. Reason: sloppy editing?
#15
Honda-Tech Member
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
my understanding is that the sway bar just ties the two sides of the car together decreasing body roll and doesn't stiffen the suspension, like i said im new to this so i may be wrong. If someone knows for sure i would love to hear what they have to say
#16
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Posts: 4,049
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
Scott, who, being serious just momentarily, suggests the search function...you are sitting on the worlds deepest repository of front wheel drive information and don't seem to know it...
#17
Honda-Tech Member
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
I have been i guess i just don't understand sarcasim.
I have just begun using honda-tech and use to use team-integra there are alot of great articles there and im currently re-reading this one since it has slipped my mind
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/bl...sway-bars.html
I have just begun using honda-tech and use to use team-integra there are alot of great articles there and im currently re-reading this one since it has slipped my mind
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/bl...sway-bars.html
#18
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: where i stunt SAND CANYON in Southern California
Posts: 2,795
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
i drive... i don't just mod... when i added the itr sway bar to my stock em1.. it made a day and night difference...
#19
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: where i stunt SAND CANYON in Southern California
Posts: 2,795
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
and how about this for some food for thought... maybe the fastest car in h2 class.. http://vimeo.com/41033212
front sway bar is stock rear is 32mm hallow bar..
front sway bar is stock rear is 32mm hallow bar..
#20
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: where i stunt SAND CANYON in Southern California
Posts: 2,795
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
maybe if edik had the same power in that da as the spoon ek in the vid u guys posted.. he'd put that car to shame.. I'm a strong believer ...
#21
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Posts: 4,049
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
and how about this for some food for thought... maybe the fastest car in h2 class.. http://vimeo.com/41033212
front sway bar is stock rear is 32mm hallow bar..
front sway bar is stock rear is 32mm hallow bar..
Scott, who thinks if you don't swing that wheel thru at least 240 degrees several times per lap if not per corner...and you're not a robot...then you're just cruising...or your rear sway bar is way too small (just kidding)...
#22
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: where i stunt SAND CANYON in Southern California
Posts: 2,795
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
not a robot... its just he's not scared to drive... i believe driver has a lot more to do with it then just a spring rate... u can put the best parts and have the best set up and be the slowest around the track...
#23
Honda-Tech Member
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
understandable but on the same note is it to say that there is no "ideal" suspension set up and rather it can be said it is based off of personal prefrence
#24
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Snowwhitepillowformybigfathead
Posts: 4,049
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Re: I suppose it must have been gnawing away at me for months...
Scott, who is working to restore his personal preference that my kaa be fully assembled and operational...I think I'm up to like 3 or 4 nights in a row now...
#25
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 3,788
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts