boosted920

i have a 96 ej8 coupe that i'm going to start building. i've been wanting to get into road racing for a few years now, but have never got the chance.

i am going to run a sleeved b-series with turbo setup. probably a gsr transmission with type r lsd. i am unsure of the turbo right now... either my cousins 50trim with full boost at 3k or maybe something a little bigger like a 35r.

do any of you guys run a turbo'd road race car? or even auto x ? im very interested to see what your guys' thought are on this. thnks

Stinkycheezmonky

Since it looks like the search is working again, search for "turbo" and specify the Roadrace/autocross subforum. That search alone returned 119 results.
The short answer is, yes, people do it, but not without problems.The short suggestion you'll hear is, "Start tracking with the car as stock as possible, modify later after you have experience."

Js-Integra

Based on my SCCA experience, if you put a turbo, you place your car in totally different race class - usually unlimited class. You will be competing with V8 or other turbo charged cars like Evo or Sti. If you would like to compete with other Honda guys, I would stay in NA.

Andres-eh2

I know someone who autox's a turbo LS motor in an EJ8. I think it's in the 400whp range. He drives it awesome and it seems like his was built right because he's been driving that thing hard now for a while without any major issues.

Stu can really drive his *** off because you gotta know how to modulate throttle in a turbo FWD doing Autox with that kind of power at your disposal.

MBellRacing

Boosted cars have been raced throughout history with mixed results. I've heard of classic examples of drivers who just can't match the driving style that is required to be fast/competitive in a turbocharged car. The biggest thing is that boosted cars like full throttle to efficiently spool up the turbo, but once the thing kicks in, full throttle will likely spin the wheels. It takes a light touch and some intuition to perfectly put the power down without lighting up the tires. Also, there is a much more dramatic punishment when you lift in the case you DO spin the wheels. Once you close that throttle plate, the compressor will spin down again, requiring you to build up pressure again to get the power back.

Basically it'll test you driving ability. Turbocharging to high horsepower seems to really polarize drivers, separates the mediocre from the amazing.

turboteener

For most guys, it is not a good option. Our cars end up in SPO with all the retired stock cars. I really don't want to be on track with 3400lb cars and marginal drivers. That is why I nixed the idea of running my street turbo motor in my road race car.

Heat management is key to making it them survive.

Lo-Buck EF

yea, he's also building a non-turbo car to go to the track with.

the heat is what brings on issues. cracking manifolds, burning hoods, blowing through consumables (fuel, brakes) because the car is real fast ect.

MBellRacing

He obviously wants to go faster regardless, even a driving style change could burn up wearing parts quicker which is fine. Good point though, for on/off throttle, turbo = fuel gobbler. If you're doing it right (your brakes setup, which should be decent before you're thinking horsepower anyway), you won't likely notice a brake difference unless you double your power.

Lo-Buck EF

yea, i guess if he's just starting out hes not gonna burn up parts that quickly. but stock sized civic brakes won't last long on track making ~300 wheel reguardless of pads.
o.p.-if you wanna do it, go for it. the car isn't gonna explode the second you take it on track. you just have to be mindfull that its gonna take some attention both on and off track.

MBellRacing

That's the biggest misunderstanding about turbocharging (or any other forced induction for that matter). Boosting your compression reduces reliability considerably on many fronts. You are adding a lot of pressure on both sides of the engine in the case of turbocharging. You are tasking every aspect of your engine from the oil (both in temperature and in grade) to the cylinder walls. On top of that, as Lo-Buck mentioned, the heat from both the increased power and the extra strain on the motor is significant which reduces the reliability of almost everything in the engine bay, and in some poorly engineered scenarios, even the engine bay itself!

Turbocharging IS using wasted heat energy to boost the engine's compression and so is a very efficient way (if engineered properly) to increase horsepower. It can look good on paper as a means to increase power without a big loss in fuel mileage on the street, but power is power and said energy requires fuel regardless of how you're spitting it out. That, on top of the driving style changes and the increase wear means that turbocharging is a tall order to consider... the woes of starting your build career in a small-displacement Honda! Turbocharging is a LOT of fun to play with and power adjustments via a dial is an interesting and rare ability to have. The feeling of that compressor kicking in is exhilarating and all the sounds keep you interested throughout your drive.

Have you thought at all about supercharging? I know it's not usually as efficient, but it is way easier to engineer and install and makes for a much more reliable and clean machine.

boosted920

wow. thank you very much guys for your inputs.

i do not plan on "competing" with this car. i just want to go to a few open road race days at Gingerman Raceway (south haven, michigan) this year. i'lll have to double check the regulations on running f/i there.

i know the engine/drivetrain are going to take a fair share of a beating on the track, and some of my main concerns were:

How difficult is it to deal with boost lag? does anyone have actual seat-time experience with this?

As some1 stated, im worried about the overheating problems. would a simple fluidyne radiator ,Spal slim fans, and a nice sized intercooler be enough?

What size turbo and what whp would be sufficient for a quick/fun roadracer? i want this to be around 500whp on high boost on the streets and whatever low boost setting you guys think is reasonable for the road course?..

as for s/c. i dont think theres a s/c capable of the whp im looking for? if there was id def. be interested in taking a look at it.

thanks for all the responses. really helps out. i wish someone could post whos dealt with a decently whp civic on a road course.....

Pompiuses

No, it will not. I suggest you read this:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/solving-overheating-problems-2088088/
https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/engine-bay-under-hood-temps-airflow-real-data-2352358/
https://honda-tech.com/forums/road-racing-autocross-time-attack-19/pressure-zone-questions-2460757/

legomytego

if you plan on doing any road racing forget the 35r they are good for 650hp and will not have the reponse you need for autox or road racing if you cant put that kinda power down with slicks drag racing forget it with street tires you need to stick with something 3076 size and smaller maybe something like a 2871 good for 400hp with crazy spool good luck

Stinkycheezmonky

If you searched you would find there are people who can answer that. Mrlegoman, Chris F, and Weston for starters. As I said before, all of the specific information you're looking for has been covered in the past. Make an effort to find it if you want it. Since you're a noob, maybe you don't know the way things are done around here, hence the explanation.

Also, if you come out to WMHM in July at Gingerman you'll see a few turbo cars, and could probably go for a ride in some of them.

redzcstandardhatch

i've got a decent-whp-civic that i take out on track.

i did a LOT of track driving when it had a 250-275 whp d16a6, ran about 15 psi through a nice setup on it. with good cooling system (massive radiator, massive IC, good oil cooler system.), it was solid reliable.

its fun, and was really fun when it had less power (has roughly 350 now, with an F series)

make sure you can drive it....thats the hard part

circuitdevil

Could you clarify this please? Brian at Hasport says the same thing. I have dealt with turbocharging a fair bit, I had a turbo track miata. I agree that it effects reliability and longetivity. However Ive never dealt with supercharged FI, but I dont see how it is more reliable?

The only thing I can think off, is most SC's come as a kit, therefore they are tuned. It is hard to homebrew a SC kit, while with turbo its extremely doable and many people end up tuning it themselves = boom. I see poor tuning as the main reason a lot of motors dont last.

The heat issue I can see being a definite problem as well, but if you look at factory cars the Evo 8 and STi of that generation actually can outlast their naturally aspirated competitors in the heat department (Ie, M3, NSX...). I saw this in the last best motoring endurance race (2-20 min heats). Mind you they have a lot of engineering behind them.

Anyways, with SC you are still shoving more air down the engines gullet, you are still compressing air thereby creating heat and usually its less efficient. Why does it end up being more reliable?

Thx for your time.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Why not just run a stock engine until you get some seat time in?
There are alot of people with fast cars that can't drive them fast.
It all starts with learning how to control a car. Biting off more than you can chew in a boosted car isnt the best thing to learn in....

boosted920

what is WMHM? sounds interesting and id really like to attend even if i have no car to race. ive talked this over with a few people and ive got the idea of going with something like a b.b gt30r. not too big and laggy

as for overheating, i currently have a vented cf hood that i thought looked too "ricey" , but now im thinking to keep it and re-primer it instead of selling it.

redzcstandardhatch

WMHM.org

track event in michigan this summer

BigStu

wow what are the chances of me stumbling on this post? Lo-buk, andres what up!!!
boosted920 im the one andres was talking about running the a turbo ej8 for auto x regularly
Its fun but it does take a lot of balance through-out the course to control it. pound for pound its not the most efficient thing to drive (power/weight,wheel spin, ect) but it is fun sweeping up evo's and sti's on the course.......unless it rains LOL

BigStu

here is a in car view from last summer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgjuI...eature=channel
there is really a lot of throttle balance involved

boosted920

bigstu: thnx for posting that vid. man. looks fun as hell! lol if i may ask, what size turbo are you running and whats your full spool at?

Jaker

"rmcdaniels" has a bunch of experience with F/I on road courses. Here's his latest project. I think this would work for you as well:

https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced-induction-16/anyone-interested-500-whp-supercharger-kit-1997913/

BigStu

NP. Im using a garret t3/04e 57 trim car spools @ like 3k actually. I feel its pretty responsive

MBellRacing

I won't go into it too much, but turbochargers are bottling up a bunch of heat on the exhaust side. This wears parts like manifolds and exhaust valves. Superchargers take mechanical energy from the crank and use it to compress the air just as a turbocharger does, just without the lag, and without all the exhaust side heat. Old 2-stroke diesel engines actually used superchargers back in the day as "scavenge pumps" to assist in exhaust scavenging. The idea is that the rush of pressurized intake air will help push out the remaining exhaust left in the cylinder when the intake valve opens. The hot exhaust has a tendency to hold a lot of capacity in the cylinder when the valve openings overlap since the hotter exhaust wants to follow the relatively cold intake air back in its port. This is worsened with a turbocharger since the turbine attached to the exhaust manifold creates a fair amount of back pressure and hinders the exit of the exhaust gas. The downside of a supercharger is that it is boost limited to the size of the pulley and still has to follow the same rules as the turbocharger as far as heat/pressure efficiency. You can't just "turn up the boost" like on a turbocharged car.

On most supercharger systems, you don't have to worry about any oiling really and obviously manifold heat isn't a problem. That, plus the said ability to make your motor run cleaner and under less stress is why I said I believe them to be more reliable than turbochargers. Nothing can prevent faulty tuning, though I'd assume its a fair amount easier to tune an EFI supercharged car than a similar turbocharged one. If you want raw power, turbo is the way to go for the most part. I'm sure someone will come on here bringing up special cases, but there's a reason why there are many more turbocharged race cars (dragsters not included) than supercharged.