descartesfool

Just read a piece in my latest issue of EVO magazine. New European regulations for tires to mandate good performance in the wet and also maximum levels of noise by 2012. Wet grip requirement will effectively ban the use of R-compounds on the street. Likely to g are Michelin Pilot Sport Cups supplied as standard on Porsche GT2's and GT3's and Viper ACR's. Toyo R-888's as well as others.



Likely many tire companies may change their offerings due to lowered demand. As for those really slick R compounds like Hoosiers, forget about those!



Will our regulators follow suit?

90_EX_Civic

correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure on the side wall of my A6 Hoosiers', it says for off road use only. basically saying that im not supposed to drive on the regular roads with it.

it might say D.O.T. but it's not legal to drive on the road.

nsxtasy

I'm pretty sure that if it says DOT, it's legal to use on public roads, as long as the tread depth is more than the minimum 2/32" required by law. The tire manufacturers and sellers may advise you not to do so, but it's not illegal, I don't think. (Someone give me a suitable reference if I'm wrong.)

I'm not advising anyone to use R compounds on public roads. I'm just saying that it isn't illegal if they have sufficient tread depth. There are lots of reasons NOT to use them on public roads; they will wear fast (even more so for autocross R comps like the A6) and they won't grip well, particularly in rain. OTOH if you're just driving a short distance (e.g. between the track and the hotel) and you're not pushing them hard... well, it's your car.

BTW, here's the warning on the Tire Rack website about the A6, which does not precisely state that they are illegal on public roads:

descartesfool

I think the issue I see is not to do with DOT, since that is only relevant to one country in the world. It is rather what will happen to the whole concept of R compounds, since it seems like they will become illegal in the entire EU, which is bigger than the USA. If the entire concept of a "road legal" track oriented tire disappears in all of Europe, then many tire manufacturers worldwide may decide to move out of the market, if they might be expecting more countries to follow suit with the EU regulations. That might then leave a much smaller pool of manufacturers willing to even consider making R compounds, as it now becomes a non "normal consumer" legal product. Kind of like Honda and Toyota moving out of the sports car market. I would guess it might not affect Hoosier much, but the big boys like Michelin (& BFG), Bridgestone and the like could simply move onto other things.

descartesfool

Found link to article:

http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/23..._outlawed.html

Str8 outta Cliff

It's anyone's guess whether this will affect us in North America.

I'm sure the tire mfg's still sell plenty of tires in our market...

As for the legal possibilities, I know many places in Europe already have much stricter regulations than we do.

IE. I've heard of countries where you may only use the stock tire size (I think larger wheels are ok if the overall tire diameter is the same) or you need to get an inspection for any type of suspension modification.

mc-integra111

My Kumho V710's have the same such wording, advising that they are not intended for use on the street.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't full tread R888's provide superior wet grip than any actual street tire anyway? I think their reasoning is flawed (at least for full tread R compounds, my V710's would suck if there is any standing water ).

nsxtasy

I don't buy that. R compound track tires really aren't made to be used on public roads; they're made for competition use, even though they're street legal. What's more, so many manufacturers have lately gone in big for sticky street tires that can be used on the track (Star Spec, XS, RE-11, R1R, R-S3, etc). THOSE are the "road legal track oriented tires" now. And they aren't going away.

I doubt that we'll see big changes in the tire market due to any changes in European regulations. The current poor economy and the corresponding decline in racetrack event participation are a far greater threat to the manufacture and availability of R compound tires.

No. The large tread blocks do not deal with wet pavement as well as conventional street tires. It's even worse with R comps whose pattern consists solely of two circumferential grooves. However, an even bigger factor is tread depth; most street tires come from the factory with around 10/32" of tread depth, whereas the R888 and most R comps come with 6/32". And while you need 2/32" of tread depth to be legal, Tire Rack testing has shown that wet braking distances are double at 2/32" what they are with new tires, and they are 50 percent higher at 4/32" than new, so for best wet traction, they suggest considering replacing tires at 4/32" rather than 2/32".

mc-integra111

Thanks for the Info.

I have never used those super-sticky street tires in the rain. I used to use full tread RA1's for rain races, which were pretty good, but have moved on to dedicated wets (W710's).

Mr.E.G.

Realistically, how will this impact anyone negatively? So you can't drive your double duty street/ track car on its stickiest tires. Big deal. Most people I know that have double duty cars use different tires on the street than on the track anyway.

It's too expensive to run high end tires on the street, and somewhat pointless in the sense that you are riding around on a tire with an incredibly low tread wear rating, tearing it up without getting any of the enjoyment.

Don't get me wrong. I drive my turbo Miata around town and I get a little adventurous on some corners, but I am not pushing my car to the point where I would need the extra grip from am r compound tire vs. a reasonably sticky street tire like an Azenis.

You see what I am saying? I don't want some bureaucrat telling me what to do anymore than the next guy, but I just don't see how this is going to hurt anyone other than forcing us to have different tires for the track than we use on the street. That creates a little added expense, but I would be willing to be that if you weighed the cost of tearing up your r compounds on city streets, thus having to buy more R compounds within a given time period vs. only using your R compounds on the track and buying some cheaper tires for the street, you would probably break even or come reasonably close.

descartesfool

The main point I see is that many very high end cars are sold with R compound tires for street use as fitted from the factory. Usually the track version of a car like the BMW M3 CSL and variants, Viper ACR, Porsche GT2 and GT3, F430 Scuderia, and many less expensive track oriented models from Lotus, Ariel, etc are fitted with R compounds for street use. If the market for those prestige cars falls off for R compounds, then the tire makers might become less interested in producing that line of tires since it is likely the R compound lines do not make them much profit compared to their other tire lines. It is like racing slicks made by the two largest tire companies in the world, Bridgestone and Michelin. I would suspect it has a lot more to do with marketing value from racing than profit from racing. If you add Goodyear (NASCAR slicks), you have 55% of the world's overall tire market, and add Continental from Germany, and you might be up to 65%.

There are of course many smaller tire companies that will move in to fill the niche if that happens, but if the Yokohama 048's and Pirelli P Corsas become illegal in Europe as with other R compounds fro street use, that shrinks the market. Along with other reasons mentioned to shrink that market lately, the effect might be less incentive to produce R compounds at all for some tire makers. It is not like I am thinking R compounds are about to disappear, but there may be fewer models. Time will tell.

And as for driving on the street with my R compounds, I've had some scary aquaplaning moments on the highway. I usually avoid that!

nsxtasy

If they are the track version, then they can still be sold with R compounds, for off-road use.

I don't know why you say that R compounds don't make much profit. AFAIK it's quite the reverse, that they are extremely profitable, which is why more and more tire companies have brought out R compounds in recent years, and why we have a lot more choices now than just a few years ago. The same is true of those supersticky street tires - very profitable, which is why more and more companies have gotten into that segment. As a marketing manager for a tire company once expressed appreciation to a group of us, "you are among our most frequent repeat customers".

unrealwrc

seriously... why waste your r-comps on the streets? i mean general tires work just as good getting you from point a to b. and I mean even RS3's RE11's XS's and RT615 work just perfectly for performance street driving.

slammed_93_hatch

Isn't going to change ANYTHING IMO.

the R6, A6, V710, R1, R888, RA1 probably have something in the neighbor hood of 75 to 85% of their customers and return customers as Race Cars, or cars/wheels and tires that are ONLY used on track.

racebum

the problem with hoosiers is the fiberglass bead. one hard pothole can really damage the tire. v710s are rock throwers but not a hazard other than that. the streetish R's would be the nt01s, 555r, 888, corsa etc. while soft, they wont throw gravel to the degree of 710s. basically the bead is the biggest problem i know of with some slicks. they were never designed to withstand potholes.

SR20Goofus

While I can understand where you're coming from Claude, given that the car models you specify are sold in very low quantities (compared to either other models from those manufacturers or to similar price-range cars from other manufacturers), I don't think it would be an issue. That has to account for something like 1% of their sales, I would think.

drewbie

thats what happens when you live in europe. Maximum noise regulations? seriously???

Battle2.0Eg

thats it....im going to drop my whole european theatre racing program.

*falls on floor*