Honda_Enjineer

One more thing ....

I strongly recommend that you get Honda manual (and I mean the REAL Honda manual). Sadly they are expensive at around $80-$90 on eBay but in reality there is NO substitute.

That is what your Honda mechanic uses himself. It has real detail on everything repair-wise for your car.

Haynes manuals are not very useful in my experience - and they tend to have a lot of cut'n'pasted oil/tire (useless) stuff and overall they lack any real detail (furthermore they are all about the same thickness which tells you something right there).

Good in their day but cars have become very complicated.

Honda_Enjineer

One more....

Trying to hold the crankshaft pulley in place with a large screwdriver shoved into the torque converter area is something that I really hope you don't need to resort to. The forces needed to break that bolt free are pretty huge.

So... yes, it might work and I'd probably also try it myself at a pinch and if the martians were coming to eat me. But they aren't and you could do some serious engine damage that would give you another big headache to fix.

Just buy or RENT a good pulley holder. Do the job properly and you will feel better later.

Raider3g

Raider3g

It seems as though I may be pulling the trigger a little early. I have an 08 Pilot and have 75K on it now. I thought I was getting to the timing belt late, dut to the mileage. The owners manual suggest this to be done at 60K. Should I do this now or at 105K? Plus I bought a Timing belt Kit from NAPA, which includes the waterpump for $271.00, I am not sure If I should return this or not.
Thanks,

Honda_Enjineer

At 75K and with non-Honda replacement parts I'd certainly wait a bit. The parts that I have removed from two 80-90K cars were in very good shape.

When you do this job it is really best to use OEM Honda parts. On 2 cars I have replaced the following:

- crankshaft and camshaft oil seals (you'll need a seal puller and a pulley holder) - best not to skimp here as getting access is a big job as you will soon discover (I'd never consider using non-Honda for this)
- thermostat (you need to drain the system so doing this at the same time makes good sense) - again don't skimp, themostats fail often
- coolant (use Honda RTU coolant for replacement) no choice on this
- water pump - mistake not to replace this unless you are selling the car soon
- timing belt idler pulley and the tensioner pulleys (optional really)
- timing belt tensioner (IMO, optional)
- timing belt - the real need (use a Honda part - very little difference in price really relative to the rest and much cheaper than a new engine)
- drive belts (alternator/power steering etc.. sometimes there are 2) - mistake to skimp on this too.

My pennies...

Consider spending a bit extra on Honda parts, I'm convinced from close inspections of many Chinese-made knock-offs that there is a BIG difference. Also, when you are doing so much work yourself why skimp?

Bob

Ash J. Williams

i am dreading this job on my MDX

Honda_Enjineer

Just do it!

Chances are you will do a better job than the dealer anyway. It's not that hard just allow plenty time and get the proper parts.

Have a good breaker bar and pulley holder ready - you can resell these later if you like and get nearly all your money back.

Do the oil seals and thermostat too - it was extra work but I am glad now that I gritted my teeth and just did it.

Bob

weasel145

Well, I don't normally post here, but I just finished the timing belt and water pump replacement on my wife's 2005 Honda Pilot and I thought I might be able to add some useful information about my experience.

Now here is my disclaimer: This is only from my experience doing this procedure myself. for the first time. If you use any of this information, please do it at your own risk. I am not responsible if you use any of the following information and your repair does not turn out like mine did.

OK, now that I said that, I hope this information can save some DIY'ers some money. I bought all my parts from g1parts.com. I highly recommend them. The had the best prices online and they had free shipping (oh and no tax because I don't live in the same state). I ordered the following parts:

Code Item Qty Price Total
14400-RCA-A01 Honda Genuine Timing Belt - 14400-RCA-A01 1 $39.21
14510-RCA-A01 Adjuster Timing Belt 14510-RCA-A01 1 $71.58
14520-RCA-A01 Tensioner Timing Belt Auto 14520-RCA-A01 1 $80.54
14550-RCA-A01 Idler Timing Belt 14550-RCA-A01 1 $31.63
91213-RCA-A01 Oil Seal 91213-RCA-A01 2 $8.64
19200-RDV-J01 Honda Genuine Water Pump - 19200-RDV-J01 1 $93.08
19301-P8E-A10 Honda Genuine Thermostat and Gasket - 19301-P8E-A10 1 $24.23
91212-R70-A02 Oil Seal 91212-R70-A02 1 $4.86
38920-RCA-A03 Honda Genuine Compressor Belt 1 $25.36
Subtotal: $379.13
Tax: $0.00
Shipping Cost: $0.00
Grand Total: $379.13

I also purchased the Haynes manual from my local autoparts store. I am glad I had it for reference, but I really only needed it for one thing and that was the torque specs for the crankshaft pulley bolt. I know this thread tells you to tighten it to 181 ft./lbs of torque, but I found out my torque wrench maxs out at 150 ft./lbs. ( I know i need a better torque wrench). In the Haynes manual it explains how to torque the bolt in a two step process. First torque the bolt to 47 ft. lbs. of torque. Then is says turn the bolt an additional 60 degrees and that will equal 181 ft. / lbs. That was very helpful for me. One other thing about the haynes manual was that it said to remove the alternator. DO NOT REMOVE IT. It was a pain to remove it and a pain to put it back. It never needed to be removed in the first place.

So, everything was going very smooth to the point were it was time to remove the crankshaft pulley bolt. The part everyone warns about. I was worried about how I was going to hold the pulley. I had purchased a cheap pulley holder from harbor freight, but it became obvious it was not going to fit on the crankshaft pulley. That is when I noticed something about the pulley. It has 2 holes on the face of it. See the arrows in the picture:



That gave me an idea. I own a dewalt 4 1/2 inch angle grinder (also called a cut off tool) that came with a tool to remove and install the grinding disks. The tool has two pins that fit into two holes on the grinder. See the reference picture of the tool I am talking about:



The holes on the pulley seemed to be very close to the size and distance apart as they are on my grinder. I pulled out the tool and I could not believe it but, it fit in the holes on the pulley just perfect. I was able to use the tool and a crow bar wedged between the frame and engine to keep the tool from moving. Then I used a 18 inch long 1/2 inch breaker bar and a 3 foot pipe to break the bolt loose. It ended up being one of the easier steps in this process. It was actually more difficult to tighten the bolt back to 181 ft./lbs. The tool slipped on me a few times and I bent the tool a little bit. I was able to straigten it in a vise and finally get it to work. If anyone is intersted the tool can be purchased by itself online for $6.74. A lot cheaper than the Honda tool, especially if you are only going to use it once or twice. The part number for the tool is: 401680-00 Below is a link to a place that sells it online.

http://www.toolsandmachinery.com/pro...ducts_id=13215

So then when it came time to change the cam and crank oil seals, I got scared. I am driving this car to florida in two weeks and I really don't want to have an oil leak. I got out my seal puller to pull out the seal and I could not get the tool in there to pull it out. It was extrememly tight. I have pulled seals on older cars and trucks, but these are different. I read how a small scratch on the seal housing or on the cam or crank can easily cause an oil leak. I finally decided it was just not worth it to take a chance of messing it up because I don't know enough about what I am doing. Besides the seals were not leaking at all and looked good. I decided to take my chances and replace them once they start leaking even if that is in 40 or 50 thousand miles.

Lastly, putting the belt on was a breeze with the help from this thread. This thread was a lot more helpful than the Haynes manual. I had it printed out and used it as my guide the entire way through. There was one thing different on my wife's pilot. Her Pilot is a 2005 and the dipstick does not have to be removed on 05 like it does on 03 and 04. I assume that would be the case with 05 and newer models. Now that this one is done, I am going to help my dad change his timing belt on his 2004 Saturn Vue, which has the same 3.5 Honda engine in it. I am hoping it will go a little quicker now that I have done one.

Email me if you have any questions or would like to see anymore pictures. I took 30 pictures while doing this procedure to use as reference while putting it back together. In case I forgot where or how something went back together.

Honda_Enjineer

Interesting - and thanks for posting!

It's worth mentioning again that you can rent good quality pulley holders. But it sounds like your home-grown solution worked although doing it that way would likely scare me knowing the large amount of torque that is involved.

The Honda oil seals have much tighter tolerances and they are not at all like the old fashioned type. The good news is that being Honda seals they supposedly last longer but you will certainly agree that doing this job all over again will really suck. So good luck on your decision!

I also struggled a bit with my old "hook" style seal puller on my first Odyssey job and I was sweating a bit about damaging the seats or shaft. I had to re-grind the hook sharpness/shape and also finally I used a hammer to get the tip in there - luckily no damage except to the old seal.

Then I discovered this excellent Lisle tool that I used next on my '06 Pilot:

Lisle 58430 Shaft Type Seal Puller

http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-58430-Sh.../dp/B000FPYW4K

Using the Lisle tool on my Pilot I could not believe how easily it popped the old seals out! I only wish that I had mentioned this here sooner - this tool is well worth the money and I highly recommend it.

It is worth mentioning here again that IF you do replace the oil seals make a really good mental picture first of where the old ones are on each shaft. It is easily possible to push the new oil seals in further and that is likely to cause problems. The other thing is to make sure that they are set square on the shafts and not canted and that the seal seat is DRY of oil. These issues can cause oil leaks or faster seal wear.

Anyway, I am very glad that you got good information from this thread. We will keep adding to it until it is THE reference on belt replacements.

BTW, I am not at all impressed with Haynes manuals and I am sorry that they told you to remove the alternator (must have been a "pasto" from the Ford manual perhaps ;-) - what a huge waste of effort that was. But adding this to the thread here will at least warn others! A huge red flag for me - pages of pasted stuff on spark plugs, tire wear etc.. the same useless generic junk in every single manual (so that less specific stuff on the actual car in question is then needed)..

Buy a Honda manual - it will pay for itself over and over.

One other thing that I will add to this thread (based on your oil seal issue - that has jogged my memory)... if you replace your thermostat too (which I strongly recommend doing at the same time when the cooling system is drained anyway).

It is worth noting that it has a very unusual (you could say unique) type of Honda rubber gasket that actually wraps around the edge of the thermostat flange. I have replaced many many thermostats over the years and I blindly stuck the new thermostat and gasket into its hole on my Odyssey job thinking that it was the same deal.

It promptly leaked new coolant all over the place leading me to have to do this job twice. On closer inspection of the new gasket and thermostat I immediately noticed my mistake.

To make sure that you get it right - compare it to the one that you removed.

Bob

Honda_Enjineer

One more... I added this item to my tool kit after doing the first job:

Gear Wrench 3680 Serpentine Belt Tool 16 Piece Set

http://www.amazon.com/Wrench-3680-Se.../dp/B0002WSFTO

It worked great on my Pilot drive belt! IMO, this is the best designed product that I have ever seen from Gear-Wrench. An excellent kit that is really worth it if you work a lot on cars! Has uses that go way beyond serpentine belts because of its narrow profile.

Bob

weasel145

Thank you for the additional information and you can bet this tool is going to be my next purchase.

weasel145

Well, I purchased the Lisle 58430 Shaft Type Seal Puller from Amazon yesterday. It was eligible for free shipping if I spent $25. So, I decided to find something else to buy so I could get free shipping (their scheme worked on me). That is when I came across this tool:
Powerbuilt 648796 Honda Crankcase Pulley Removal Tool - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000TMLWQ. It has a lifetime guarentee, so I figured it would be nice to have for the next job. I know it's not the honda tool but, for the price and the number of times I am going to use it, I don't know how I can go wrong with a lifetime guarentee.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Great to see this thread has been so helpful. I love that people are throwing in their own photos and stuff. I don't have the patience to take step by step pics while I'm working ...

weasel145: That is the same pulley holder I have. It works great and I've done a few Timing belts with it so far. Just wish the Pilot's crank pulley was a little deeper so it wouldn't slip out when dropping 400+ lb/ft of torque (yikes!). Nice part is It works on every Honda 1990 and newer I believe. I had to get a different holder for my old 89 CRX, but it's still worth it. The funny thing is that while I did have to replace the cam seal on my 89 rex, the main seals front & rear are still leak free (220k miles now). I would leave all seals alone if they aren't already leaking.

And once you've taking this stuff apart once, it will take you half as long the second time and make for a good Saturday morning project.

bryse68

v6 timing belts maybe required to be replaced @ 60k depending on driving conditons(perf Honda). not to mention that timing belt tensioners can cause a noise while cold(sounds like valve train noise.) at round that mileage.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

This sounds like some bologna they teach you at the dealer to justify raping peoples wallets. There is no such information inside any Honda owners manual.

Honda pilot belt gets replaced at 105k miles.

weasel145

I replaced mine at 122,000 miles and the belt ,pulleys, and tensioner still looked great. My dad's honda V6 is at 138,000 miles with no nioses or issues. We are getting ready to change his. At 60,000 miles, it's way too early and a huge waste of money to change it that soon (my opinion). However, if you like the Honda tech's coolaid, go ahead and drink it.

bryse68

4
Replace spark plugs.

Use IZFR5K11 (NGK).

Replace timing belt. If the vehicle is regularly driven in very high temperatures (over 110 ºF, 43 ºC), or in very low temperatures (under -20 ºF, -29 ºC), or towing a trailer replace every 60,000 miles (USA)/100,000 km (Canada) and inspect water pump.

Inspect the valve clearance (cold).

Intake: 0.20-0.24 mm (0.008-0.009 in.), Exhaust: 0.28-0.32 mm (0.011-0.013 in.).

this is a copy and paste deal from the honda ISIS, for a 2006 pilot maintenance minder 4.........

bryse68

the usual timing belt service is done @ 105K, until you come across a tapping noise while cold and you assume its the cams or rocker arms, and replace them and the noise is still present...only to find out that the timing belt tensioner is bad, and the vehicle has less than 90k. i came across more than a handful of tensioners going bad. BUT, since its not the recommended service mileage, just wait to service it @ 105k....

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

If the car is making a weird noise, you better figure out what it is. Has nothing to do with mileage, or age or whatever...

slomofo

iTrader: (1)

It's a lot easier than it appears. Takes me about 90 minutes to accomplish and people say I'm pretty slow at it since I normally do European stuff over Japanese.

will89

Hi Bob, do you or anyone have a tip for best prices on OEM Honda parts. I was just quoted $550.01 for the whole schebang- including thermostat and oil seals from the dealer in El Cerrito, CA.

Or, what brands of aftermarket manufacturers are similar quality?

Honda_Enjineer

I personally don't have any tricks - I bought all my parts from various eBay sellers at pretty reasonable prices (all were genuine Honda OEM parts).

When you do this job you will agree that it is a lot of work. My personal feeling is that getting the best possible parts is very important and you are still saving a bundle on the labor. You will feel a lot better about it when you are done knowing that it was all done right!

But, if for example you are about to sell the car in a year, then it probably makes less sense to pay the extra for OEM.

You need to decide this based on your own needs, desire and budget.

I plan to keep our cars at least until they need another belt change in another 100K.

will89

Ive since found the entirety of the parts including both tensioners, cam seals, and crank seal for about 350 taxed and shippped to CA. A shop in Daly City will do it for 450 in labor. They quoted me 900 using all honda parts so that'll save a few bucks.

Im getting feedback from the parts guys at various Honda dealers that the tensioner (non hydraulic) rarely need to be replaced. Im told the same of the cam seals- that if they are not leaking don't mess with them. Thats a tough one, because might the start leaking in 10k after the repair. I'll leaning on replacing everything.

Honda_Enjineer

That's a good deal if those are Honda OEM parts - but most likely these either aren't or they have shortened the list of what they are going to replace significantly.

The idler and tensioner pulleys that I replaced were all in good condition - I reckon that they could probably easily last for two belts. I'd still replace the oil-filled tensioner itself.

I would not do this job without also swapping the thermostat. The cooling system is drained to replace the water pump so that is really a no brainer. Thermostats DO fail a lot! Then you can get serious engine damage.

I'd expect them to tell you that about the oil seals. If (or, I should say when?) they eventually do leak you will pay for the entire job again and you will have oil everywhere. So, they make more money. Not something that I'd skip but then it is just my own time here - again it is your call.

Doing the seals is a fair bit of extra labor but that said it will never be any easier than when everything else above is already removed.

The seals are just thin rubber rings in contact with spinning steel shafts - it is only a matter of time. They say that the Honda ones last longer but I am not about to test that theory.

You should see if their workers there show any sign of whip marks or beatings - $450 for all the labor here in California is a great deal IMO!

But be warned - it seems to be standard practice these days to quote a "sales come-on" price to fish you in and then "discover or recommend" something during the job.

See if you actually get out of there paying only 450!

Bob

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

I will be doing this next month on my 04 Pilot. If all is well inside there, I will only be replacing the 3 belts (~$60). When bearings start to fail they make lots of noise, and when water pumps fail they simply leak. When seals fail, it's quite obvious. Plus I already have a the leftover hydraulic tensioner from my mother-in-laws pilot that was in perfect condition when I removed it. Since I can always do this again at a later date, there is no reason to waste money fixing things that aren't broken.

Of course you can bet I'll be looking VERY closely at the condition of each piece inside.

As for discount Honda parts, HondaPartsNow.com and HondaPartsDeals.com. There is also AcuraPartsWarehouse.com and AcuraOEMParts.com for the Acura parts that don't cross over to the Honda dealers. I also like to contact the ebay guy DLee at Acura of Peoria parts because they have great discounts as well and their shipping is much cheaper cause they're nearby in AZ.

All of those places are real dealerships that sell online. You will only receive OEM parts in OEM packages. This would be my shopping list for my 04 EXL if doing the full timing system (hondapartsnow pricing):


14400-P8A-A02 BELT, TIMING (197YU26 GB-323) $27.27
56992-P8A-A01 BELT, POWER STEERING PUMP (MITSUBOSHI) $15.25
38920-P8F-A02 BELT, COMPRESSOR (MITSUBOSHI) $21.28
19200-P8A-A02 WATER PUMP (YAMADA) $96.61
14550-PGE-A01 IDLER, TIMING BELT (KOYO SEIKO) $33.49
14510-PGE-A01 ADJUSTER, TIMING BELT $60.39
14520-P8E-A01 ADJUSTER, AUTOMATIC $77.40
OL999-9011 COOLANT (TYP2 BLUE) $13.94 x2

Total: $359.57 + $26.07 shipping = $385.64