nealnanoHX

Thought this was interesting. A friend of mine came over today to pick up a stock Ls exhaust manifold for his GSR swapped EG that he just did the swap on. He needed a stock mani so he car run the stock Ls cat he got so he can pass emissions but anyways. We where talking about our cars and he told me he had the car tuned my a local tuner caller Locash and how much better it ran after the tune and how the tuning made it quicker as tuning does. I asked him how much it made to which he replied 142whp on a Dynojet. I was pretty shocked, Loecash is known to be on of the best local Honda tuners. Mods on the GSR are a AEM SRI, Skunk2 intake mani, DC 4-2-1 header, test pipe, Skunk2 exhaust and tuned with Neptune. Motor is a clean OBD1 JDM GSR. My LS Vtec is a stock OBD2 B18B1 block with ARP rod bolts, stock rebuilt 90 spec JDM B16 head and B16 cams with 3 angle valve job and H22 Tyoe SH LMA, 99 Si intake mani port matched, CAI, DC style 4-2-1 header, stock 99 Si cat, 2.5 inch cat back and tuned on Hondata S100 with a P28 ECu. My setup made 161whp tuned by another local tuner also a well known Honda tuner called XactDyno. Now my motor as smaller cams and a lower compression and a stock cat and my LS vtec made more power after tuning than a tuned GSR. His car is a 94 Civic Ex Coupe and mine is a 98 Civic Hx Coupe.
Please share thoughts.

doood

iTrader: (1)

sounds about right for a bolt ons b18c1. what were you expecting?

nealnanoHX

For it to be at least closer to my Ls Vtec if not a little more since the compression is higher and the GSR cams are a little better.

doood

iTrader: (1)

stop comparing two different setups on two different dynos

nealnanoHX

Both Dynojets and both motors very similar both 1.8L both Vtec pretty much the same headers only the GSR has a better intake mani, no cat and a higher compression (JDM GSR) and better cams. I would really have thought that his GSR would have more power than my LS Vtec and again I am running B16 cams and a B16 intake mani but I still made 20whp more.

doood

iTrader: (1)

regardless if both are dynojets they are not the SAME dyno. numbers will never be the same between different dynos on different days under different conditions. your argument is meaningless.

put both on one dyno then put both on the other dyno, all in the same day. that would make for a better comparison.

nealnanoHX

I know both of these shops very well and their dynos ready very close to the same. Air temps where very close to mine when my tuning was done. I dont see a 20whp difference in these variables.

typemismatch

JDM B16 head and B16 cams with 3 angle valve job and H22 Tyoe SH LMA, 99 Si intake mani port matched

/confusion

I believe the B16 head has smaller chambers, thus increasing your compression. Plus you have a port matched mani and 3 angle valve job. Is that really worth 20whp? Maybe. Numbers don't really mean crap, except when comparing your starting and ending power on your own motor. Truthfully a car with less whp can have a better tune/be faster than one with higher whp, because peak power doesn't mean much if your tune under the line is crap.

The truth is you do have to compare on the exact same dyno, on the same day. All dynos read differently, there are way too many different variables in setting up the dyno that can change readings. Also, temperature isn't the only weather variable, so "similar" temperature isn't a valid observation.

Either go dyno them again on the same day, or race them, 4th gear pulls will tell you what's up.

Even then ... you're heavier so it still won't tell you side by side anything more than what you can figure out simply by racing them at the track, who's faster? Which is all that really matters.

nealnanoHX

Incorrect SiR it is the other way around the GSR head has quench pads that make the CC smaller thus increasing compression. The B16 head has no quench pads and a larger CC. The B16 is 42.7cc and the GSR head is 41.60cc. If I was running a GSR head my compression would be around 10.18-1 but it is actually at 9.98-1 to 10.05-1, closer to the 10.05-1 since I had the head milled .003" and I think it was milled once before (just to true the surface) There is nothing special about a 3 angle valve job, that is a standard valve job. Also the GSR has a Skunk2 Pro intake manifold and mine is just a stock OBD2 B16 intake and yes I did a port match and light polish on it but that does not make a big difference. If I had been able to use my first B16 that I had then I may have seen a little more power since I did a light port and ploish on it, it was destroyed by a machine shop, long story. As for the different dynos I could see a 5 maybe even 10whp difference but 20whp is pretty big. I really doubt it is the difference in dynos. Like I said I have seem the same cars on both of these dynos doing pulls and the numbers where within a few whp. My car was tuned and dynod on a 100+ degree day so if anything my numbers are a little low due to the high temps. How am I heavier the 94 Civic EX coupe comes in at 2443 and my Hx weighs in at 2361. So in fact I am lighter. He also has 17" wheels and I am still proudly rocking the super light 14" Hx wheels so that will not help him.
This thread was not about a pissing contest between me and other members or me and my buddy over hows is faster nor is it about this dyno and that dyno on this day. It is about is a stock LS Vtec a better motor that a stock GSR? Even with a lower compression B16 head a smaller B16 cams and we all know the Ls motor is rated at 9.6-1 compression and the JDM GSR is at 10.6-1.

typemismatch

Race them and find out

nealnanoHX

Yeah we talked about going to the track here once it cools off some. 90 degree nights sucks. But again this is not about who's car is faster. Lets put is this way what normal for a GSR with bolt ons and some tuning and what is normal for a LS Vtec with bolt ons and tuning?? Stock bottom ends and heads no internal mods.

doood

iTrader: (1)

actually, it is. i dont know how you dont see this.

Jimmynitro

ls-v has more displacement so that can be why its equal to gsr having slightly higher comp, just a theory

nealnanoHX

Ok well since it seems that doood just wants to make this all about how one dyno is different that another dyno. I will just chalk it up to either not as good a tune on the GSR, the larger displacement of the Ls Vtec and the fact that my compression is a probably higher than I thought it was sine I know I had the head milled .003 and I thing it was milled once before. So with only .003 milled my compression is at 10.05-1 and if it was milled twice it is 10.12-1, so that right there evens things out.

doood

iTrader: (1)

damn you're dense

DAprojectTuRtle

iTrader: (3)

i actually read this whole thread lol pretty funny.

dk=gsr

the only way to tell is go to the tracks.
his car my be making lower whp but all that matters is the time and the trap speed than you well know if your whp is accurate.

nealnanoHX

Wow how did this go from a is a Ls Vtec>B18C1 in stock form to is my car faster than his? We all know that B16<B18C1 and B18C1<B18C5 but is Ls Vtec<B18C1??????

Hyper16-Johnny

Does it really matter which is better? Frankly, it's all about using what you have or can get for the time being. Any of those motors you mentioned can make over 1000hp with the right combination of build. But stock to stock they all gonna run high 14s with a good driver in an untouched chassis Honda. Meaning full a/c, power steering, interior, etc.

The fact that your motor made more power than the GSR can be anything: different dyno used, you had head work done, maybe the GSR has issues, maybe was on a stock ecu, it can be anything. Numbers like his sounds about right for a stock GSR. I had a stock ITR motor make 164hp on a dynojet with basic bolt-ons on a stock ecu. Based on the stock internals of the ITR it should have made lots more than your motor because of the compression, head, and cams that you aforementioned, but it didn't. I then had a stock block GSR with a stock port GSR head with full ITR valve train, S2 i.m., and 65mm tb make 182hp on Crome. It could have been the stock ecu holding back the power of the ITR motor but stock to stock, it doesn't make much of a difference. The 20-25hp difference between stock motors are only a few hundredths, maybe tenths of a sec.

typemismatch

We've done this ... exactly as you asked, but you seem to want to take our replies personally, as if we're not listening.

The truth is, you're the one that's not listening, you asked us to share our thoughts, but you don't like what you hear, so we're not listening.

Is an LS/V better than a bolt-on built GS-R?

Maybe, maybe not.
GS-R could be a "Monday motor" or a "Wednesday motor". Its an old adage referring the the factory workers that originally built the motor, a Monday motor is a crappy motor from the factory because it was built by hung over factory workers, whereas a Wednesday motor would be built after everyone has recovered from the weekend.

Now, as far as an LS/V ... there are so many ways to put them together, with different block, crank, rod and piston combinations, your compression, stroke and displacement could land you anywhere from 9:1-12:1 compression and displacements from 1.8-2.0L even more, or less. So just saying you have an LS/V doesn't tell us much.

BTW, I'm not aware of a machine shop that mills heads less than .010", so you're probably calculating your compression wrong anyway. I would be willing to be that your head was milled .030", which is actually an order of magnitude larger than you are claiming.

FYI .030 is "thirty thousandths" whereas .003 is "three thousandths", .003 generally wouldn't even straighten out a head with minor imperfections.

Along with all of this, he could have been tuned on full exhaust and you tuned on open-header. Or any number of other significant variables.

The point I'm really trying to make is that comparing numbers on two motors is pointless. Just like bench racing. There are so many variables in just the motors alone, that once you change tuners, dynos, days of the week, making any comparison is just a blithering mess.

If you want to know if "LS/V > B18C1" ... race them. But even that doesn't prove anything other than who's the better driver. Even if you have the same driver race both cars, that driver would have to be unfamiliar with both cars for it to be an "even" comparison.

What you're after is "yes your LS/V is so much better than a stock GS-R, good job building a better motor than Honda did from the factory, you get 1 million interwebz points!"

:pats you on the head: ... good boy ...


now go lay by your dish

nealnanoHX

Those responses are more of what I was looking for, thanks.
I think my B18B1 was a Wednesday motor. My tuner said mine was the strongest stock B18B1 he had every seen, it made 142whp with bolt ons and a tune.
My head was not warped I only had the machine shop put a fresh surface on it and yes they only cut off .003', I was a machinist for 10 years so I know how much .003" is.
My LS Vtec was tuned with a full cat back, it was tuned exactly as I drive it.
I am not looking for thumbs up on the motor I put together either. I guess the mods can close this thread since it was pointless. Thank you.

92civiceg9gsr

Weight of wheels, tire pressures, gear ratios, different dynos, all can play games with dyno numbers. If you want to see actual power differences go to the same dyno on the same day, use the same wheels, and the same transmissions, and then you would be able to remotely compare the two cars.

doood

iTrader: (1)

he basically said the same thing i did

JuggerNaut-CTR

This thread is beyond lame....

nealnanoHX

Yea thanks for making it that way everyone.
IMO LS Vtec is better than GSR due to the B18B1 having a longer stroke and larger displacement so it has more tq and hp.