Jagan'92

I replaced my timing and balance belts this weekend and did the valve adjustment at the end. (First time I've done them since I bought it last year)

Background
My car ran quiet as hell before I touched it, but I found that the valve lash was .03-.04 mm on the intake side, instead of the manual recommended .09. The exhaust side was similarly tight. So I loosened them up to factory spec.
And my valves ticked like crazy.

I thought maybe the mileage (110k) may have worn down the valves or something, so that's why they had been tightened (previous owner used the dealership for everything). So, I compromised by retightening them to .06mm, .11mm. Twice as loose as they were to begin with, and .01mm tighter than spec. Now they are quiet again, though not as quiet as original.

Question
Now to the main question: the plugs are white. This means I'm hot and/or lean. Would the valves being too tight cause these conditions? Or is it the fact that the plugs are NGK 5s instead of 6 or 7s?

LudeyKrus

I REALLY don't think that the valves are supposed to be set at .09!

junbb1

tight valves create a rich condition not lean

BoostedH23a1

mine are .005intake and .006 exhaust but i have aftermarkets

Jagan'92

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by LudeyKrus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I REALLY don't think that the valves are supposed to be set at .09!</TD></TR></TABLE>

?? what are they supposed to be set at then? I read .09mm in the helm's and under the hood! of course - it's .09 plus or minus .02mm. are you thinking inches?
Anyhow, I reset them now to .06mm intake/ .11mm exhaust and they're nearly as quiet as originally.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by junbb1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">tight valves create a rich condition not lean</TD></TR></TABLE>

how does that occur, and why? What you are saying is there is a relationship between a/f and the valve lash, but it's opposite from what I thought. A buddy of mine was saying it's better to let your valves be a little loose because that ensures slightly rich conditions.

In that case, assuming tight valves = rich like you say: what is the difference in the ngk5 versus the ngk6, and would the 5s turn white where a 6 would stay normal looking?
ps: I have changed plugs back to stock ngk6 now (also under the hood luda!) So now i'll check them out again in a bit and see whether i'm still lean.

Paluce

your intake valves are right but the exhaust valves sound loose. I remember reading .08 for some reason. you'll find it in a search.
I'm positive the intakes are .06 though.

JDogg

they are supposed to be 0.008 inches on the exhaust and 0.007inches on the intake..

having the vavles too tight will normally just result in **** for power and sometimes burnt valves.

Jagan'92

whew, I've got all kinds of different answers to the valve height.
sigh

well, I looked at the helm's and got my values from that when I did the adjustment. Then I listened to the clatter from the valves. Then I looked under the hood and discovered the the helm's must have had a typo - it was .02mm too loose. So I adjusted .01mm tighter than the tightest recommendation under the hood.
You guys all have different clearances, obviously. Probably different engines. I have a 92 Si. I just went to that icelord manual -&gt; engine 2.2/2.3 -&gt;
Looking at page 2 of the specifications - that looks like what the helm's says, which is .02mm looser than the sticker under the hood that honda put on 11 years ago. Now I did loosen up my exhaust from .15mm to .11mm - based on the fact that a little tick is bearable, and I thought a little tick was better than worse for the engine - assuming tight valves = lean.

flyrod

Valve lash should not affect mixture more than the ecu could compensate for. If the plugs are reading lean, make sure you have the right temp plugs and maybe check the O2 sensor if you really think it is running lean. It also depends on when you pull the plugs to look at them. If you make a full throttle pass and immediatly shut off the engine, the plugs will probably read differently than if you let the car idle for 10 minutes then pull them. If you have some mods to the engine, a rom tuned for your setup can clear up any mixture issues...

As far as lash numbers, I think most of us were thinking of the H22 engine and in terms of inches (I've never seen a metric feeler gauge) while reading your question. If they are set corectly to whatever the spec is, they should be fine. Some ticking is better than burnt valves.

vtecludeh22

ok i know that the intake is suposed to be .06 or is it .07? then what bout the exhaust?

alias 33

is it hard to adjust the valves? my 94' H23 ticks a bit and it needs adjustment.

Jagan'92

thanks flyrod - I was hoping the valves wouldn't make me go lean, because I need them .01mm tighter than spec to get rid of the ticking. Never seen a metric feeler gauge?
I'll check the O2 sensor, and I've changed the plugs to new ngk 6's. From what you are saying they should be readable pretty much now, as in a few days from when I put them in. Maybe they'll tell me if I'm rid of the problem, whatever it was.

alias - look in the useful links for shake's DIY valve adjustment. I don't think an adjustment is hard. I can do one in half an hour.
I just pop off the two alternator connectors, lay the harness over the fuel rail, remove the right side grounding point, remove the pcv, then roll the valve cover off and to the left, upside down with the intake tube still attached. I don't take my wheel off or jack up the car, just point my wheels out and reach under with my 19mm wrench and turn the crank CCW, first to TDC. Adjust cylinder 1, turn crank 180, adjust 3, turn 180, adjust 4, turn, adjust 2. Basically.

4bidden

What motor do you have?

Sounds like people are assuming you have a H22?

H22 specs are

.006-.007 intake
.007-.008 exhaust

I am unsure about the H23 because I dont feel like going and looking at the sticker under my hood

Jagan'92

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4bidden &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What motor do you have?
I am unsure about the H23 because I dont feel like going and looking at the sticker under my hood </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry about that, I have an H23. So your sticker should be the same as mine!

Any more thoughts on valve lash affecting air/fuel?
Or on whether it is better to run them a little loose rather than a little tight?
Or how high mileage could possibly wear down the valve seats a bit, causing the valves to require being tightened a little to keep them quiet?
Or the difference between ngk5's and 6's?

Silverpike

Your plugs are in the wrong heat range. ngk5's are too hot, spec is ngk6's. That would definitely make a difference in your plug condition.

fleabag

I know this is an old thread but I found it through google so it's relatively relevant. Important thing to remember folks is, 1. Follow the Helm's manual, ignore everybody else's opinon on tolerances if it deviates from that. If it has a range which it does, aim for the middle of the range for tolerances. The engine is NOT suppose to sound quiet when running, that means the valves are too tight! Honda engines should sound like sewing machines when running properly.

As for the dolt who says the car should be able to compensate for tight valves, that's what the O2 sensors attempt to do as valves that are too tight are deviating too much from the fuel maps. Deviate a LOT and the car is then spending too much time listening to the o2 sensors for fuel information and not the fuel maps, therefore you get a lean code. O2 sensors are for fine tuning and verification your car is running properly/running clean. You get a lean code when the car has to ADD fuel due to the O2 sensors saying the fuel mixture is too lean, usually +25 but sometimes as little as +10 will trigger a code.

Also the car cannot compensate effectively when a single cylinder has valve lash that is different from the rest of the cylinders. All the intake valves should share the same lash values and the same is true for the exhaust valves.

PirateMcFred

That 'dolt' is 10 years your senior on this board, I know him and your drivel isn't up to his level. Flyrod's la Engineer Extraordinaire, you should watch your mouth. It's people like you is why he doesn't bother to post anymore.

Yeah, because .005" difference in lift is like a brazillion percent of the gross lift, brah. The ECU can't handle <1% difference in cam profile/valve motion, man.

Looser lash will run richer, until the O2 tells the ECU so, then it'll pull the fuel. Like EFI tuning 101.
Whatever.

fleabag

You don't know **** if you think .005" difference isn't a lot, because that's huge. After all, feeler gauges are differences of .001"...

Also, what exactly do you think fuel trims are if they aren't compensation by the ECU? That's exactly what the ECU is doing when the car isn't operating exactly how it's suppose to and the oxygen sensors say so. Incorrect valve lash leads to fuel trims +/- and a properly running vehicle should have less than +/- 5 in its fuel trims with ideal being 0 fuel trims. When a vehicle has very high fuel trim numbers, it means there is something wrong which is exactly what can happen when the valve lash is incorrect. Obviously valve lash isn't the only problem to be concerned with but it's one not to be overlooked.

Lift is only a small fraction of it, it more has to do with timing. When you decrease or increase the valve lash, you change the timing, duration and dynamic compression of the cylinder with the largest effect being on timing. Also depending on how the valves are lashed, one can increase valve overlap which if not intended and not applied across the entire engine can make the engine run poorly.


Are you even aware that ECUs do not vary their fuel injector output on a per cylinder bases but at best a per bank basis or at worse across the entire engine? That if you have one cylinder with too small of a gap and another with too large of a gap, that the car will not run optimally and consequently you'll have some lean, middle and rich cylinders. That's why when you build an engine, everything needs to be exactly the same as much as possible. This is why compression numbers shouldn't be more than 5% difference between cylinders.

Sparksman

I like Pop-tarts.

Pop-tarts are good.

Pop-tarts dont argue with you.

Because Pop-tarts are food.

I like Pop-tarts.

PirateMcFred

Keep talking, rookie.

fleabag

Not everybody has the same standards when it comes to a running vehicle. You may not think those things matter because you've gotten away with it but I've seen enough vehicles benefit from valve lash adjustment with valves being .001-.002" off spec not idling smoothly yet once corrected, idle perfectly. Even if your vehicles idle acceptably to you, you may not be aware of the increase in fuel consumption due to incorrect valve lash adjustment. These are things that can actually be measured with scan tools (some of which I own) and I have seen first hand what small improvements can do for fuel economy, performance and idling quality.

PirateMcFred

I like Pop-tarts too, Sparky. But I'll admit that they suck cold. Toasting them over a campfire is nice. Then again EVERYTHING tastes better at 13,000'.

I like your contribution too, Mr. Sparks. Has more merit than Toolbag's here. He doesn't just own some of them, he is one too.

-P

DCFIVER

Maybe so,but he's wrong.


It cant.







Everything Fleabag posted is correct......

Prudz_lude

iTrader: (1)

This is the correct spec for h22.