TIPS: Basic's for building your motor for FI... and having it LAST
02-29-2004, 09:42 AM
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TIPS: Basic's for building your motor for FI... and having it LAST
This kid couldn't find anything, I imagine there are others who are just as helpless.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=782060
So I'm going to spoon feed this to them, and anyone else who cares.
I have never been known as a person to make things last. I build stuff on the ragged edge of power and breaking because that's where it's the fastest. In the process of my 5 years of tearing up parts I have, however, come up with some basics that seem to be universal truths. I'm going to share a few tips, and a few pitfalls, so that maybe someone can learn from them.
I guess I'll start off as I usually do in these posts with my disclaimer. I'm not a master engine builder, I'm not some numbers pimp with a degree in bench racing and spec quoting. I'm a real live person, with real life experience. I've raced Preludes for years, I've owned them, torn them apart, built them, broken them, and I love them. What I post here is mostly my thoughts. Educated thoughts of others will differ in some areas, and I highly encourage them at all times. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.
Like I tell people all the time, a Honda is only reliable until you break the motor open. Once you do that it's a dice game. For some reason we have reliability fairies in our H22's that come from the factory, and if you crack it apart and take the guts out, the fairy escapes.
The clearances that Honda's run on are notoriously tight, and this is why it's important to have someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING build your motor. It's ALSO very important to choose someone who HAS EXPERIENCE IN HIGH PERFORMANCE HONDA'S work on your car. Regular mechanics who work on 350's, or who change out stock parts will end up wth a product that is less than perfect. It's nothing against them, it's just they don't understand that there is a difference when building a motor.
I'm not saying that when you build your motor it's going to fall apart in 10k miles, because it's VERY possible to make them last. I'm just telling you that when you step off the ledge into "modded land," you can't go back.
Something WILL happen that isn't expected. Plan for it. Oil leak, engine code... something, at some point in time will happen. You can't modify a car and still expect it to act stock in all other aspects.
On to the tips.
Reliability and longevity count on two basic things: Sticking to the basics, and having someone build it CORRECTLY. When building a motor to run for a while, just keep things simple. No number games, no drastic changes. Take the motor and just make it stronger.
When you build a motor for FI, take some things into mind. Number one high compression is your enemy, but low compression makes streetability 'nill. The key is to find a happy medium. Our motors were built from the factory to run NA, and now you have to combat that to turbo your car.
Compression:
TurboSam ran 10:1 on forged pistons when turbo'd. It worked. I also know other people who have done this. It makes tuning a LOT more important, but it also keeps an element of driveability in the car. 9.5:1 is also a very popular combination, it gives you a little leeway on how much boost you want to run. I run 8:1, but my bottom end power is ***, and I always aim for something like... oh... 30psi for top speed runs. I recomend 8:1 for most people like I recomend a bullet to the head.
So you have your choice there, but if you want durability I'm going to say 9.5:1 compression.
Pistons:
Forged pistons are really the only choice if you want to do this. There are people who run Type S pistons, or stock pistons or other combinations... good for them. If you want something built to take some pressure, then go forged. JE and Arias are two I always suggest. I run Arias, and I love them. There are others, Wiesco etc, and I haven't heard bad things from them. So the choice is yours. I always just drop the extra cash on something I know and trust. No need to change now.
Sleeving:
Yeah, this argument has been raging for the better part of a decade. I'm not even going to step off into this, everyone knows my stance. I sleeve ALL my motors. It's stronger, it works, it's proven. Durable FI motor: sleeve it.
Rods:
Saenz Rods are the shizznit. They are the one thing I've never managed to damage no matter how damn hard I try. Since the chances of getting those are slim and they're a custom item for these motors anyway, then I say Crower. Maybe JUN. You can always run Eagle, they seem pretty reliable. Take your pick... mainstream forged rods are like women, they're a dime a dozen, and everyone has different preferences. DON'T run stock rods. You have your motor apart, and make use of it. Stronger rods rock when turning up the boost.
Stroking or De-stroking:
Don't bother. It messes with the factory proven geometry. Again, leave it for the brave and the rich... and the ones with something else to drive.
Knifedging the crank:
Same thing as above. Limited gains and you chop up something you want to be VERY strong. I say no for a street car.
Have your entire rotating assembly balanced
That wasn't really an entire thought on it's own, it just needed to be bold for some reason.
Boring:
I change my mind on this like I change my socks... (about once a month) There is a lot to be said for leaving things as they are at 87mm. It keeps with my theory of staying simple and staying strong, but it also loses out on some potential displacment. So I'll go ahead and say just stick with 87 or 88mm. 89mm is the highest you should go for something like this if you do bore it out. There is a risk of hairline fractures between the sleeves at the top of the block, but it's miminal.
Bearings:
Lots of people use stock Honda bearings. I do too. They work, they are meant for these motors, and ... well ... they work. Run tight clearances. Looser wears down faster. Always replace them when tearing a motor down.
Headwork:
Oh the chapters I could write on this. Theory for this extends farther than the bullshit in the kills forum. I'm going to stick to what you want to know.
Porting and polishing:
Have it done ONLY BY A PROFESSIONAL. Someone who has spent months with Honda heads on a flowbench. I say Portflow just cause they haven't pissed me off yet.
Valves:
Bore them 1/2mm, and toss in some stainless steel valves. They take heat better, and are stronger. Nitrite coatings etc.... do it if you want. I've done both ways and haven't had trouble with either. I see no reason for it on a street motor though.
Valvetrain:
STRONGER valvesprings and retainers are a must. Whoever builds your head will have a preference on these and on valves. Go with what they tell you, after all, they're building your head.
Massive reshaping and radical headwork:
for the street. Leave the ragged edge for those who want to go fast. You want to have a motor 20k miles from now.
Cams:
Ditch the stock cams. They're worthless for boost. Crower, JUN, or Webcams. I trust them. Call them up and have them help pick out a profile that will best suit your setup once you have it set out.
Headgasket:
No lower or higher compression head gaskets. Change compression through pistons, not headgaskets.
ECU:
Hondata or full standalone. AEM, DFI, etc... these work great, but they have to be tuned correctly. Hondata probably has a little better street sense to it. Either way, tune it. See TUNING below.
Tuning:
TUNE YOUR MOTHERF(*&ING CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dyno time is essential. Do it or I'll kick you in the junk. End of story...
Accessories:
-FPR: Anything other than a B&M... they suck.
I use the AEM and the AEM fuel rail. It's a common combo, and it works.
-Fuel pump: Upgrade it. Go a little bigger than you need if you want, the right FPR should be able to still turn the volume down.
-Injectors: 400-450cc will be fine. Stock can work, but it's safer with some larger ones.
-Cam gears: Never a bad idea. See TUNING.
-Stainless steel braided hoses: a must. Use them whenever possible.
-Moroso oil pan: Good bolt-on item for the simple fact everything is already tapped for you. Oil leaks are a BEEYATCH.
I could go on for days... just use your head on this.
Turbo Kit:
Drag, Fmax, custom... I don't care. If it's well thought out, and complete, it'll work. Don't try to put together your own unless you have experience. Don't let a shop put one together for you unless they've done that setup before. A simple t3/t4, a nice intercooler, and GOOD PIPING AND CONNECTORS are a basis for a good kit. Tial wastegate, and HKS BOV are good choices. Boost controllers are a necessity, and turbo timers will help save you trouble in the long run.
Gauges:
The more the merrier. You CAN'T have too many.
The ones you want in order of what I believe to be greatest to least:
-A/F
-Boost
-Oil Pressure
-EGT
-Fuel Pressure
-Water Temp
-Oil Temp
Carrying spare parts:
Always have hose clamps of all sizes, vacuum hoses, JB Weld, and your Helms manual. Phillips head and flat head, and I suggest a 3/8 drive socket set with extension and at least two regular 10mm sockets, and a deep 10mm socket.
Your Part in things:
Be active in your buildup. Read, think, explore. Don't be afraid to ask the shop some questions. If they recomend something over another, ask why. Don't be rude, but let them know that your car is something that is important enough for you to make extra effort with. Learn how things work. This is invaluable experience for you and your future as a modified Prelude owner.
Savings Account:
The smartest thing you could EVER do for yourself is set aside $500-$1000 in an account for a rainy day. Small things, big things, who cares. BE PREPARED. This is the KEY to keeping your car on the road. It's PARAMOUNT that if something small goes wrong, you take care of it and take care of it CORRECTLY. Not just "a temporary fix till I get more funds." This mentality kills cars.
*the end*
Ok, I left a lot out, and I know it. There's only so much you can type out before you go crosseyed, plus after a while people quit reading.
TO SUM IT UP:
----------------Cliff notes---------------------
Keep it basic, keep it strong. Tune the crap out of it. Have it built by known and highly reputable shops. Always carry spare parts and some basic tools. Do research: KNOW YOUR ENEMY. Detonation, oil leaks, engine codes. Read up on others problems and symptoms so when it happens to you, you can asses the situation better.
Hope that helped a little. As always, EDUCATED thoughts differing from my own (as long as reasoning and experience is included in the post) are ALWAYS welcome in my threads. I encourage discussion, and everyone can always learn something new. Even me.
Enjoy.
-Todd
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=782060
So I'm going to spoon feed this to them, and anyone else who cares.
I have never been known as a person to make things last. I build stuff on the ragged edge of power and breaking because that's where it's the fastest. In the process of my 5 years of tearing up parts I have, however, come up with some basics that seem to be universal truths. I'm going to share a few tips, and a few pitfalls, so that maybe someone can learn from them.
I guess I'll start off as I usually do in these posts with my disclaimer. I'm not a master engine builder, I'm not some numbers pimp with a degree in bench racing and spec quoting. I'm a real live person, with real life experience. I've raced Preludes for years, I've owned them, torn them apart, built them, broken them, and I love them. What I post here is mostly my thoughts. Educated thoughts of others will differ in some areas, and I highly encourage them at all times. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.
Like I tell people all the time, a Honda is only reliable until you break the motor open. Once you do that it's a dice game. For some reason we have reliability fairies in our H22's that come from the factory, and if you crack it apart and take the guts out, the fairy escapes.
The clearances that Honda's run on are notoriously tight, and this is why it's important to have someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING build your motor. It's ALSO very important to choose someone who HAS EXPERIENCE IN HIGH PERFORMANCE HONDA'S work on your car. Regular mechanics who work on 350's, or who change out stock parts will end up wth a product that is less than perfect. It's nothing against them, it's just they don't understand that there is a difference when building a motor.
I'm not saying that when you build your motor it's going to fall apart in 10k miles, because it's VERY possible to make them last. I'm just telling you that when you step off the ledge into "modded land," you can't go back.
Something WILL happen that isn't expected. Plan for it. Oil leak, engine code... something, at some point in time will happen. You can't modify a car and still expect it to act stock in all other aspects.
On to the tips.
Reliability and longevity count on two basic things: Sticking to the basics, and having someone build it CORRECTLY. When building a motor to run for a while, just keep things simple. No number games, no drastic changes. Take the motor and just make it stronger.
When you build a motor for FI, take some things into mind. Number one high compression is your enemy, but low compression makes streetability 'nill. The key is to find a happy medium. Our motors were built from the factory to run NA, and now you have to combat that to turbo your car.
Compression:
TurboSam ran 10:1 on forged pistons when turbo'd. It worked. I also know other people who have done this. It makes tuning a LOT more important, but it also keeps an element of driveability in the car. 9.5:1 is also a very popular combination, it gives you a little leeway on how much boost you want to run. I run 8:1, but my bottom end power is ***, and I always aim for something like... oh... 30psi for top speed runs. I recomend 8:1 for most people like I recomend a bullet to the head.
So you have your choice there, but if you want durability I'm going to say 9.5:1 compression.
Pistons:
Forged pistons are really the only choice if you want to do this. There are people who run Type S pistons, or stock pistons or other combinations... good for them. If you want something built to take some pressure, then go forged. JE and Arias are two I always suggest. I run Arias, and I love them. There are others, Wiesco etc, and I haven't heard bad things from them. So the choice is yours. I always just drop the extra cash on something I know and trust. No need to change now.
Sleeving:
Yeah, this argument has been raging for the better part of a decade. I'm not even going to step off into this, everyone knows my stance. I sleeve ALL my motors. It's stronger, it works, it's proven. Durable FI motor: sleeve it.
Rods:
Saenz Rods are the shizznit. They are the one thing I've never managed to damage no matter how damn hard I try. Since the chances of getting those are slim and they're a custom item for these motors anyway, then I say Crower. Maybe JUN. You can always run Eagle, they seem pretty reliable. Take your pick... mainstream forged rods are like women, they're a dime a dozen, and everyone has different preferences. DON'T run stock rods. You have your motor apart, and make use of it. Stronger rods rock when turning up the boost.
Stroking or De-stroking:
Don't bother. It messes with the factory proven geometry. Again, leave it for the brave and the rich... and the ones with something else to drive.
Knifedging the crank:
Same thing as above. Limited gains and you chop up something you want to be VERY strong. I say no for a street car.
Have your entire rotating assembly balanced
That wasn't really an entire thought on it's own, it just needed to be bold for some reason.
Boring:
I change my mind on this like I change my socks... (about once a month) There is a lot to be said for leaving things as they are at 87mm. It keeps with my theory of staying simple and staying strong, but it also loses out on some potential displacment. So I'll go ahead and say just stick with 87 or 88mm. 89mm is the highest you should go for something like this if you do bore it out. There is a risk of hairline fractures between the sleeves at the top of the block, but it's miminal.
Bearings:
Lots of people use stock Honda bearings. I do too. They work, they are meant for these motors, and ... well ... they work. Run tight clearances. Looser wears down faster. Always replace them when tearing a motor down.
Headwork:
Oh the chapters I could write on this. Theory for this extends farther than the bullshit in the kills forum. I'm going to stick to what you want to know.
Porting and polishing:
Have it done ONLY BY A PROFESSIONAL. Someone who has spent months with Honda heads on a flowbench. I say Portflow just cause they haven't pissed me off yet.
Valves:
Bore them 1/2mm, and toss in some stainless steel valves. They take heat better, and are stronger. Nitrite coatings etc.... do it if you want. I've done both ways and haven't had trouble with either. I see no reason for it on a street motor though.
Valvetrain:
STRONGER valvesprings and retainers are a must. Whoever builds your head will have a preference on these and on valves. Go with what they tell you, after all, they're building your head.
Massive reshaping and radical headwork:
for the street. Leave the ragged edge for those who want to go fast. You want to have a motor 20k miles from now.Cams:
Ditch the stock cams. They're worthless for boost. Crower, JUN, or Webcams. I trust them. Call them up and have them help pick out a profile that will best suit your setup once you have it set out.
Headgasket:
No lower or higher compression head gaskets. Change compression through pistons, not headgaskets.
ECU:
Hondata or full standalone. AEM, DFI, etc... these work great, but they have to be tuned correctly. Hondata probably has a little better street sense to it. Either way, tune it. See TUNING below.
Tuning:
TUNE YOUR MOTHERF(*&ING CAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dyno time is essential. Do it or I'll kick you in the junk. End of story...
Accessories:
-FPR: Anything other than a B&M... they suck.
I use the AEM and the AEM fuel rail. It's a common combo, and it works.
-Fuel pump: Upgrade it. Go a little bigger than you need if you want, the right FPR should be able to still turn the volume down.
-Injectors: 400-450cc will be fine. Stock can work, but it's safer with some larger ones.
-Cam gears: Never a bad idea. See TUNING.
-Stainless steel braided hoses: a must. Use them whenever possible.
-Moroso oil pan: Good bolt-on item for the simple fact everything is already tapped for you. Oil leaks are a BEEYATCH.
I could go on for days... just use your head on this.
Turbo Kit:
Drag, Fmax, custom... I don't care. If it's well thought out, and complete, it'll work. Don't try to put together your own unless you have experience. Don't let a shop put one together for you unless they've done that setup before. A simple t3/t4, a nice intercooler, and GOOD PIPING AND CONNECTORS are a basis for a good kit. Tial wastegate, and HKS BOV are good choices. Boost controllers are a necessity, and turbo timers will help save you trouble in the long run.
Gauges:
The more the merrier. You CAN'T have too many.
The ones you want in order of what I believe to be greatest to least:
-A/F
-Boost
-Oil Pressure
-EGT
-Fuel Pressure
-Water Temp
-Oil Temp
Carrying spare parts:
Always have hose clamps of all sizes, vacuum hoses, JB Weld, and your Helms manual. Phillips head and flat head, and I suggest a 3/8 drive socket set with extension and at least two regular 10mm sockets, and a deep 10mm socket.
Your Part in things:
Be active in your buildup. Read, think, explore. Don't be afraid to ask the shop some questions. If they recomend something over another, ask why. Don't be rude, but let them know that your car is something that is important enough for you to make extra effort with. Learn how things work. This is invaluable experience for you and your future as a modified Prelude owner.
Savings Account:
The smartest thing you could EVER do for yourself is set aside $500-$1000 in an account for a rainy day. Small things, big things, who cares. BE PREPARED. This is the KEY to keeping your car on the road. It's PARAMOUNT that if something small goes wrong, you take care of it and take care of it CORRECTLY. Not just "a temporary fix till I get more funds." This mentality kills cars.
*the end*
Ok, I left a lot out, and I know it. There's only so much you can type out before you go crosseyed, plus after a while people quit reading.
TO SUM IT UP:
----------------Cliff notes---------------------
Keep it basic, keep it strong. Tune the crap out of it. Have it built by known and highly reputable shops. Always carry spare parts and some basic tools. Do research: KNOW YOUR ENEMY. Detonation, oil leaks, engine codes. Read up on others problems and symptoms so when it happens to you, you can asses the situation better.
Hope that helped a little. As always, EDUCATED thoughts differing from my own (as long as reasoning and experience is included in the post) are ALWAYS welcome in my threads. I encourage discussion, and everyone can always learn something new. Even me.
Enjoy.
-Todd
02-29-2004, 12:58 PM
#3
Member
Bull. Every bit of it. Daggum ricers comin in here, thinkin they know everything...... 
AWESOME writeup. You're usin Arias pistons? I've only heard of them in n/a cars. Keep up the awesome work man, and thanks for sharin the info!
AWESOME writeup. You're usin Arias pistons? I've only heard of them in n/a cars. Keep up the awesome work man, and thanks for sharin the info!
02-29-2004, 02:17 PM
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Re: (LudeyKrus)
A couple things in there are wrong:
400-450cc injectors are NOT large enough for any reasonable power. I know because I've been there. 450cc injectors at 55 psi fuel pressure will be at 100% duty cycle at around 300whp. If you're building a damn motor, you'd better at least get some 660's or larger and make some power. If you're planning on running stock injectors with a turbo setup, you need to sell your car before you break it......
Bullshit on the stock cam rant. Stock cams will work fine if you don't feel like spending $600+ on another set, aftermarket cams are not a requirement at all. You'll be missing out on some easy top end power, but cams are something simple to do later. Spend the money on something difficult to do later (on internals) and worry about cams later.
A/F gauge is hardly the most important gauge, unless you're talking about an FJO or similar wideband setup. You're saying you'd rather see a blinky light coming from the stock O2 voltage than know how much boost you're running? Boost and EGT are requirements, get a good EGT (greddy, apexi) and better yet get one that is peak and hold.
Drag turbo kits are crap.
You're absolutely correct that anything B&M makes is crap (gauges or FPR kits).
Get a manual boost controller. We've run TurboXS HPBC's on everything, and they work. There are local 1000+ whp turbo mustangs that run these same boost controllers. Best $130ish you'll ever spend. Forget that homemade boost controller crap.
Overall, good writeup.
Brian
400-450cc injectors are NOT large enough for any reasonable power. I know because I've been there. 450cc injectors at 55 psi fuel pressure will be at 100% duty cycle at around 300whp. If you're building a damn motor, you'd better at least get some 660's or larger and make some power. If you're planning on running stock injectors with a turbo setup, you need to sell your car before you break it......
Bullshit on the stock cam rant. Stock cams will work fine if you don't feel like spending $600+ on another set, aftermarket cams are not a requirement at all. You'll be missing out on some easy top end power, but cams are something simple to do later. Spend the money on something difficult to do later (on internals) and worry about cams later.
A/F gauge is hardly the most important gauge, unless you're talking about an FJO or similar wideband setup. You're saying you'd rather see a blinky light coming from the stock O2 voltage than know how much boost you're running?
Boost and EGT are requirements, get a good EGT (greddy, apexi) and better yet get one that is peak and hold.Drag turbo kits are crap.
You're absolutely correct that anything B&M makes is crap (gauges or FPR kits).
Get a manual boost controller. We've run TurboXS HPBC's on everything, and they work. There are local 1000+ whp turbo mustangs that run these same boost controllers. Best $130ish you'll ever spend. Forget that homemade boost controller crap.
Overall, good writeup.
Brian
02-29-2004, 02:59 PM
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Re: (Firedrake)
Just a few points:
It's a street prelude designed for 6-8 psi on the street, and 10 psi on the track. I should've said this earlier. We're not building for a race car. 450's should work fine. I agree, if you want to boost the motor more, or go for speed and a little more power, I'd jump right to 750's. No need to dick around. I'll probably run some 1100's on my next setup. You could be right though, getting straight to larger injectors saves you from having to upgrade later. So that is one point I'll concede on.
Cams: I'm all about easy power. Which is why I always suggest cams. You can't deny that most turbo h22's respond extremely well to turbo cams. Stock will work, yes... but turbo cams give you more power for little risk. It's not like turning up the boost. Get where I'm coming from?
Plus, if you've got the $5-$7 grand for a buildup, then you can afford the cams.
Gauges: eh, to each his own. I'd never run without the top four gauges. A/F is the easiest to hook up and it's pretty easy to read even for a moron. green = ok, yellow = good, red = bad. That's the only reason it's listed first. Boost is a given with a turbo kit. EGT does give you much more reliable info. Well worth the cash invested in it. Oil pressure: handiest tool when cranking over a brand new, unbroken in motor, and telling you when you're low on oil and need to add a quart.
I also didn't list things like manual tensioners vs auto, exhaust and downpipe, manifolds, oil pumps etc.
Good thoughts, can't argue with them.
It's a street prelude designed for 6-8 psi on the street, and 10 psi on the track. I should've said this earlier. We're not building for a race car. 450's should work fine. I agree, if you want to boost the motor more, or go for speed and a little more power, I'd jump right to 750's. No need to dick around. I'll probably run some 1100's on my next setup. You could be right though, getting straight to larger injectors saves you from having to upgrade later. So that is one point I'll concede on.
Cams: I'm all about easy power. Which is why I always suggest cams. You can't deny that most turbo h22's respond extremely well to turbo cams. Stock will work, yes... but turbo cams give you more power for little risk. It's not like turning up the boost. Get where I'm coming from?
Plus, if you've got the $5-$7 grand for a buildup, then you can afford the cams.
Gauges: eh, to each his own. I'd never run without the top four gauges. A/F is the easiest to hook up and it's pretty easy to read even for a moron. green = ok, yellow = good, red = bad. That's the only reason it's listed first. Boost is a given with a turbo kit. EGT does give you much more reliable info. Well worth the cash invested in it. Oil pressure: handiest tool when cranking over a brand new, unbroken in motor, and telling you when you're low on oil and need to add a quart.
I also didn't list things like manual tensioners vs auto, exhaust and downpipe, manifolds, oil pumps etc.
Good thoughts, can't argue with them.
02-29-2004, 03:15 PM
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Re: (Lone Luder)
As far as injector sizing, I think the best advice is to purchase the size one needs for the planned power output, rather than suggesting any particular size.
In my personal opinion, a wideband setup is handy. I don't run without one. An EGT gauge certainly provides reliable information, but still only part of the picture. Together, the two paired can give one an overall picture as to the health of one's tune. I also agree that a narrowband O2 a/f gauge isn't entirely worthless: it does give you a quick reference as to whether you are ok or in danger.
Modified by sharkcohen at 1:48 AM 3/2/2004
In my personal opinion, a wideband setup is handy. I don't run without one. An EGT gauge certainly provides reliable information, but still only part of the picture. Together, the two paired can give one an overall picture as to the health of one's tune. I also agree that a narrowband O2 a/f gauge isn't entirely worthless: it does give you a quick reference as to whether you are ok or in danger.
Modified by sharkcohen at 1:48 AM 3/2/2004
02-29-2004, 03:43 PM
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Re: (sharkcohen)
If we're talking about a less-than-10psi setup here, then why are we talking about built motors? As for the injectors, I think knowing your power goals can help out (I find the calculator at http://www.rceng.com very useful and mostly accurate), but in a world where standalones are common (and required) that have no problem idling very large injectors, why go with something small? So you spend an extra $40 to go from 550's to 720's in the beginning, that just means that you'll be running your 720's at less duty cycle. Trust me, when you're doing a little dyno tuning the most annoying thing in the world is to run out of injector!
Also, a wideband setup is not a must. They're becoming more affordable and are good to have, but if your tuner knows what he/she is doing, you should have no need for a wideband on the car all the time......
This is a good thread, hopefully more peeps will pipe in
Brian
As for the injectors, I think knowing your power goals can help out (I find the calculator at http://www.rceng.com very useful and mostly accurate), but in a world where standalones are common (and required) that have no problem idling very large injectors, why go with something small? So you spend an extra $40 to go from 550's to 720's in the beginning, that just means that you'll be running your 720's at less duty cycle. Trust me, when you're doing a little dyno tuning the most annoying thing in the world is to run out of injector!Also, a wideband setup is not a must. They're becoming more affordable and are good to have, but if your tuner knows what he/she is doing, you should have no need for a wideband on the car all the time......
This is a good thread, hopefully more peeps will pipe in
Brian
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02-29-2004, 03:46 PM
#8
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Re: (Firedrake)
I think it's also generally agreed any turbo kit that comes with a 'fuel computer' or some kind of tuned setup (f-max, JRSC) is not a good idea to use. How many people have blown motors thinking these kits actually are bolt on and go.
Ditch the mikey-mouse fuel setups and get a real standalone or hondata and tune it right.
Ditch the mikey-mouse fuel setups and get a real standalone or hondata and tune it right.
02-29-2004, 06:59 PM
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Re: (sharkcohen)
Lone Luder? Firedrake? Sharkcohen? satan SRV?
who the F*&K do yall think you are? experts or something? jeez, yall act like youve been there before
who the F*&K do yall think you are? experts or something? jeez, yall act like youve been there before
03-01-2004, 09:11 AM
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Re: (Lone Luder)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lone Luder »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just a few points:
It's a street prelude designed for 6-8 psi on the street, and 10 psi on the track. I should've said this earlier. We're not building for a race car. 450's should work fine. I agree, if you want to boost the motor more, or go for speed and a little more power, I'd jump right to 750's. No need to dick around. I'll probably run some 1100's on my next setup. You could be right though, getting straight to larger injectors saves you from having to upgrade later. So that is one point I'll concede on.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm with Firedrake on this one...if you're building the motor it's likely that you'll run out of injector sooner rather than later as I haven't met someone yet who can say with 100% honesty that they're never going to put more than 6-8psi on their built-motor turbo setup.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lone Luder »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cams: I'm all about easy power. Which is why I always suggest cams. You can't deny that most turbo h22's respond extremely well to turbo cams. Stock will work, yes... but turbo cams give you more power for little risk. It's not like turning up the boost. Get where I'm coming from?</TD></TR></TABLE>
BUT...you preface the outline for a _dependable_ setup not one that makes the most power. I'd even take it a step further to say that you don't need to build the head for a reliable low-ish boost setup...hell, I haven't touched my head yet. Is it costing me power? You betcha. Costing me reliability? Not really.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Gauges: eh, to each his own. I'd never run without the top four gauges. A/F is the easiest to hook up and it's pretty easy to read even for a moron. green = ok, yellow = good, red = bad. That's the only reason it's listed first. Boost is a given with a turbo kit. EGT does give you much more reliable info. Well worth the cash invested in it. Oil pressure: handiest tool when cranking over a brand new, unbroken in motor, and telling you when you're low on oil and need to add a quart.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Just make sure that you preface the "o2 guage" with "wideband" as that autometer junk is only good for a lightshow!
--Ian
It's a street prelude designed for 6-8 psi on the street, and 10 psi on the track. I should've said this earlier. We're not building for a race car. 450's should work fine. I agree, if you want to boost the motor more, or go for speed and a little more power, I'd jump right to 750's. No need to dick around. I'll probably run some 1100's on my next setup. You could be right though, getting straight to larger injectors saves you from having to upgrade later. So that is one point I'll concede on.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm with Firedrake on this one...if you're building the motor it's likely that you'll run out of injector sooner rather than later as I haven't met someone yet who can say with 100% honesty that they're never going to put more than 6-8psi on their built-motor turbo setup.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lone Luder »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cams: I'm all about easy power. Which is why I always suggest cams. You can't deny that most turbo h22's respond extremely well to turbo cams. Stock will work, yes... but turbo cams give you more power for little risk. It's not like turning up the boost. Get where I'm coming from?</TD></TR></TABLE>
BUT...you preface the outline for a _dependable_ setup not one that makes the most power. I'd even take it a step further to say that you don't need to build the head for a reliable low-ish boost setup...hell, I haven't touched my head yet. Is it costing me power? You betcha. Costing me reliability? Not really.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Gauges: eh, to each his own. I'd never run without the top four gauges. A/F is the easiest to hook up and it's pretty easy to read even for a moron. green = ok, yellow = good, red = bad. That's the only reason it's listed first. Boost is a given with a turbo kit. EGT does give you much more reliable info. Well worth the cash invested in it. Oil pressure: handiest tool when cranking over a brand new, unbroken in motor, and telling you when you're low on oil and need to add a quart.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Just make sure that you preface the "o2 guage" with "wideband" as that autometer junk is only good for a lightshow!
--Ian
03-01-2004, 08:28 PM
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I would just like to thank you lone luder for doing this. I have been looking for a complete writeup about building a motor for I dont know how long. Finally some info from real world experience cauz that is what it is all about! 
03-02-2004, 06:57 AM
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Re: (Lone Luder)
um......
wow, i got in on this one kinda late, not much more else to say except--
be sure you have an extremely accurate torque wrench, a rod bolt stretch guage, platigage, a good dial indicator (for degreeing cams, checking tolerences etc. you can buy a kit somewhere that as a dial with multiple attachments so it can be used for various applications). the Helms manual will become your best friend. be sure to check, double check, then re check the tightness on all bolts.
check all the seals time and time again. be very causious when putting them in, major oil leaks can develop easily (been there, done that). Hondabond is a must. be sure to apply it according to directions, do not apply escessively or it can squeeze out and actually cause leaks (been there, done that one too
)
TAKE YOUR TIME!!!!!!
however, i say to take your time, when the best running, most dependable engine i ever built was built from a bare block, installed in the car, and the car was driven in under 24 hours
wow, i got in on this one kinda late, not much more else to say except--
be sure you have an extremely accurate torque wrench, a rod bolt stretch guage, platigage, a good dial indicator (for degreeing cams, checking tolerences etc. you can buy a kit somewhere that as a dial with multiple attachments so it can be used for various applications). the Helms manual will become your best friend. be sure to check, double check, then re check the tightness on all bolts.
check all the seals time and time again. be very causious when putting them in, major oil leaks can develop easily (been there, done that). Hondabond is a must. be sure to apply it according to directions, do not apply escessively or it can squeeze out and actually cause leaks (been there, done that one too
)TAKE YOUR TIME!!!!!!
however, i say to take your time, when the best running, most dependable engine i ever built was built from a bare block, installed in the car, and the car was driven in under 24 hours
03-02-2004, 07:05 AM
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Re: (Firedrake)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Firedrake »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So you spend an extra $40 to go from 550's to 720's in the beginning, that just means that you'll be running your 720's at less duty cycle. </TD></TR></TABLE>
FD, isn't there a sweet spot (duty cycle) when calculating injector sizing? ex. if i have 1200cc injectors (i wish) running at a really low duty cycle wouldn't that be bad? Be like small shots of high volume pulses.. when you calculate inector size do you aim for 80% DC? I want to get really big injectors for future power (the glove are comming when schools done) but i'm concerned that I might over do it for lower boost levels (stock engine with EMS, ~8psi)..
FD, isn't there a sweet spot (duty cycle) when calculating injector sizing? ex. if i have 1200cc injectors (i wish) running at a really low duty cycle wouldn't that be bad? Be like small shots of high volume pulses.. when you calculate inector size do you aim for 80% DC? I want to get really big injectors for future power (the glove are comming when schools done) but i'm concerned that I might over do it for lower boost levels (stock engine with EMS, ~8psi)..
03-02-2004, 07:24 AM
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Re: (Honda.Crx)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda.Crx »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">^^^ Boosted H22 rex = death lol
You amaze me man, from where Im from in TO, stock crx's get picked up as soon as you bring em home. A boosted h22 with body work would have to have soe nice beefy security, unless you live in a good area and have a nice well enclosed garage.</TD></TR></TABLE>
stock CRX's don't have mutiple kill switches, removable steering wheels and alarm + silent alarm. and if someone got into my enclosed garage they'd be burried under my shed.
Nothing to do with the topic though...
You amaze me man, from where Im from in TO, stock crx's get picked up as soon as you bring em home. A boosted h22 with body work would have to have soe nice beefy security, unless you live in a good area and have a nice well enclosed garage.</TD></TR></TABLE>
stock CRX's don't have mutiple kill switches, removable steering wheels and alarm + silent alarm. and if someone got into my enclosed garage they'd be burried under my shed.
Nothing to do with the topic though...
03-02-2004, 01:28 PM
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Re: TIPS: Basic's for building your motor for FI... and having it LAST (Lone Luder)
does any one think it would be worth putting description of why each part is needed / not needed?
Maybe starting a thread about the different components that you can buy, and what they do?
Show pictures of what you are describing and give detail as to what it does / why it is helpful.
For example:
I have always wanted to know what a dry sump oil pan and a wet sump oil pan are.
(there are lots of things on MOROSO site that I have no idea what they do, or why they are needed.)
Maybe starting a thread about the different components that you can buy, and what they do?
Show pictures of what you are describing and give detail as to what it does / why it is helpful.
For example:
I have always wanted to know what a dry sump oil pan and a wet sump oil pan are.
(there are lots of things on MOROSO site that I have no idea what they do, or why they are needed.)
03-02-2004, 02:25 PM
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Re: TIPS: Basic's for building your motor for FI... and having it LAST (Lildrgn)
It has to do with the oil pickup. Dry sump frees up a few HP I believe.
03-02-2004, 03:35 PM
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Re: TIPS: Basic's for building your motor for FI... and having it LAST (Lildrgn)
a wet sump oil system is a oil system that uses an external pump while utilizing the oil pan to store the oil, and a dry sump system uses an external pump paired with an external oil storage tank along with whatever types of oil cooler and filters and what not that you want to use
03-02-2004, 06:21 PM
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Re: (2point2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
FD, isn't there a sweet spot (duty cycle) when calculating injector sizing? ex. if i have 1200cc injectors (i wish) running at a really low duty cycle wouldn't that be bad? Be like small shots of high volume pulses.. when you calculate inector size do you aim for 80% DC? I want to get really big injectors for future power (the glove are comming when schools done) but i'm concerned that I might over do it for lower boost levels (stock engine with EMS, ~8psi)..
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You can run into a situation where the injectors can't open quickly enough to deliver a very small amount of fuel......all injectors have a minimum amount of time and a maximum amount of time they can be open as dictated by the injector design, and that is what duty cycle is measuring (0% is never open, 100% is open all the time).....thing is, with really really really big injectors even 1% duty cycle might be too much fuel for idle......this rarely ever happens though, as long as you have a standalone that can accurately tune your fuel.....I think even 1200cc injectors would probably be ok on a turbo prelude application....
As for the 80% max thing, most injectors lose accuracy and have higher potential for improper fuel delivery (failure) over 80% duty cycle. Injectors are rated for static flow of 100% duty cycle at 43.5 psi, so when you get "780cc" injectors, it means at 100% duty cycle and 43.5 psi fuel pressure they will be flowing 780cc/min.....high duty cycle is a MUCH bigger concern than low duty cycle...
Also, fuel pressure should also be a concern. You don't want to run less than 30psi or so and don't really want to run more than about 60psi or so......these are the bounds that injectors are designed to operate within (notice how static flow 43.5 psi is sort of in the middle of that).......
While we're on the subject, for everyone that is reading this: 450cc injectors are NOT NOT NOT large enough for any decent power prelude turbo setup, even at 8 psi or so. You would need to crank your fuel pressure way up to have enough fuel, and that is BAD. Just in case you don't believe me, here is a clip from a recent IM conversation:
-------------------------------------------------------
Right, at 311 whp 9psi I was more than maxing out duty cycle on 450's at 55ish psi fuel pressure......A/F was high 11's to mid 12's on boost....
Nobody seems to believe me when I tell them this for some reason DSM's do not make 300 whp on stock injectors, no way....
Go to http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm and put these #'s in their injector worksheet: 311 crank horsepower (so whp would be about 15% less), 4 injectors, .65 bsfc, 1 duty cycle (for 100%) and 55 psig fuel pressure......
Then look what size it says the injectors would be Yep, at 311 crank horsepower you'd be at 100% duty cycle on 472cc injectors, so 450's would be WAY overrun....
--------------------------------------------------------
That injector calculator is great if you need an approximate answer for how big your injectors should be for a given power level. I'd guess a decently tuned, good turbo setup H22 at 8 psi should make around 260-280whp or so.
Brian
FD, isn't there a sweet spot (duty cycle) when calculating injector sizing? ex. if i have 1200cc injectors (i wish) running at a really low duty cycle wouldn't that be bad? Be like small shots of high volume pulses.. when you calculate inector size do you aim for 80% DC? I want to get really big injectors for future power (the glove are comming when schools done) but i'm concerned that I might over do it for lower boost levels (stock engine with EMS, ~8psi)..
</TD></TR></TABLE>You can run into a situation where the injectors can't open quickly enough to deliver a very small amount of fuel......all injectors have a minimum amount of time and a maximum amount of time they can be open as dictated by the injector design, and that is what duty cycle is measuring (0% is never open, 100% is open all the time).....thing is, with really really really big injectors even 1% duty cycle might be too much fuel for idle......this rarely ever happens though, as long as you have a standalone that can accurately tune your fuel.....I think even 1200cc injectors would probably be ok on a turbo prelude application....
As for the 80% max thing, most injectors lose accuracy and have higher potential for improper fuel delivery (failure) over 80% duty cycle. Injectors are rated for static flow of 100% duty cycle at 43.5 psi, so when you get "780cc" injectors, it means at 100% duty cycle and 43.5 psi fuel pressure they will be flowing 780cc/min.....high duty cycle is a MUCH bigger concern than low duty cycle...
Also, fuel pressure should also be a concern. You don't want to run less than 30psi or so and don't really want to run more than about 60psi or so......these are the bounds that injectors are designed to operate within (notice how static flow 43.5 psi is sort of in the middle of that).......
While we're on the subject, for everyone that is reading this: 450cc injectors are NOT NOT NOT large enough for any decent power prelude turbo setup, even at 8 psi or so. You would need to crank your fuel pressure way up to have enough fuel, and that is BAD. Just in case you don't believe me, here is a clip from a recent IM conversation:
-------------------------------------------------------
Right, at 311 whp 9psi I was more than maxing out duty cycle on 450's at 55ish psi fuel pressure......A/F was high 11's to mid 12's on boost....
Nobody seems to believe me when I tell them this for some reason DSM's do not make 300 whp on stock injectors, no way....
Go to http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm and put these #'s in their injector worksheet: 311 crank horsepower (so whp would be about 15% less), 4 injectors, .65 bsfc, 1 duty cycle (for 100%) and 55 psig fuel pressure......
Then look what size it says the injectors would be Yep, at 311 crank horsepower you'd be at 100% duty cycle on 472cc injectors, so 450's would be WAY overrun....
--------------------------------------------------------
That injector calculator is great if you need an approximate answer for how big your injectors should be for a given power level. I'd guess a decently tuned, good turbo setup H22 at 8 psi should make around 260-280whp or so.
Brian
03-03-2004, 04:42 AM
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Re: TIPS: Basic's for building your motor for FI... and having it LAST (Speedra500)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Speedra500 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a wet sump oil system is a oil system that uses an external pump while utilizing the oil pan to store the oil, and a dry sump system uses an external pump paired with an external oil storage tank along with whatever types of oil cooler and filters and what not that you want to use </TD></TR></TABLE>
so you cant use your stock pick up with a morso pan?
</TD></TR></TABLE>so you cant use your stock pick up with a morso pan?