Timing belt walk (please help!!)
06-30-2014, 04:52 PM
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Timing belt walk (please help!!)
Note: I've already searched the hell out of this. My problem looks exactly like https://honda-tech.com/forums/hybrid-engine-swaps-18/h22-maual-tensioner-conversion-timing-belt-walking-2979118/ when turned by hand. Also, those photos accurately depict my timing. It walks a little further if you bump the starter. I'm going to try keying a washer when I get the time.
Some of you may have seen my recent threads about swapping a Euro-R into a 5th gen and running the PCD with JDM wiring harness. Well, I have completed the swap using the PCD ecu and JDM harness and the vehicle runs with no CEL, pulls with no bogging, and generally gets in it. However, my timing belt is walking off the cam gears. The timing belt that was originally on it from the import shop clearly rode the very outside edge of the cam gear but there were no signs of rubbing on the timing covers or valve cover. When my timing belt begins to walk, and it settles just at the edge of the cam gear, you can see that the new timing belt lines up with the wear marks of the old timing belt that came on it. However, the timing belt I have put on it continues to walk until it touches the valve cover and the exhaust side of the middle timing cover. The timing belt does settle even with no covers. Once the covers are added the timing belt will get eaten up, continue to walk, continue to eat, and I'll be like that guy with a 1/2" belt.
Some general information:
1. All cylinders have ~230 psi. All cylinders are within 10% of each other.
2. When cam gears are perfectly aligned with decking marks the flywheel is ~2 degrees behind (no more than 2 degrees).
3. When flywheel shows perfect TDC the top of the intake cam gear decking mark aligns with the bottom of exhaust cam gear decking mark (on the inside of the gears). The decking marks form a nearly perfect line. The decking marks are definitely within the upper and lower limits of alignment.
4. When the vehicle is running the timing is dead on with timing light and the vehicle runs great.
Here is the setup for the timing belt:
Gates timing belt
Kaizenspeed tensioner
JDM timing belt drive pulley
JDM balance shaft drive pulley
USDM crank pulley (need to use it for power steering)
JDM crank pulley bolt
JDM timing belt adjuster pulley (timing idler pulley)
JDM balance shaft adjuster pulley
New OEM waterpump
Timing belt adjuster pulley has slight amount of rotational play along an axis passing through the hole in the pulley (it has play allowing it to tilt around guide bolt #30). The play is very minimal.
I am adjusting belt tension by setting piston #1 at TDC, rotating ~3 teeth counterclockwise, and adding/removing tension via the kaizenspeed tensioner. I don't think that I have tightened the timing belt to the same tension as the belt that was on it from the import shop. The original Honda belt was on it TIGHT.
I have noticed that throughout the crank rotation the slack will be present in different spots and at different tensions. Example, at TDC most of the slack exists between the exhaust cam and the timing belt drive pulley. Three teeth counterclockwise from TDC and most of the slack is between the water pump and intake cam. The position of the slack seems to just rotate with the engine.
The timing belt walks to the very edge of the timing belt adjuster pulley. I cannot get the belt to track center of the pulley. The belt does not touch the balance shaft adjuster pulley. I have not checked to see how far/if the timing belt is coming over the edge of the timing belt adjuster pulley, will check it tomorrow morning.
It appears as if there is a small gap between the balance shaft drive pulley and the timing belt drive pulley. The balance belt drive pulley acts as a washer to prevent the timing belt from moving forward. The portion of the balance belt drive pulley that prevents the timing belt from walking slightly protrudes from back of the balance belt drive pulley. It is tight down in the engine bay and I can't tell if there is actually a gap or if it is just dark and tight and I can't see where the two drive pulleys are touching.
I have noticed that the outside diameter of the water pump pulley appears to be slightly large than the inside diameter. When I look down the belt on the intake side from the cam pulley to the water pump it seems as if torque is being applied to the belt. The belt does not appear to be running flat from the water pump to the intake cam gear. I have a drawing that I will attach when I get home.
What I have tried:
1. Rotating the engine by hand at various belt tensions (loose as hell to pretty tight.)
2. Replacing bolt # 19 (rocker bolt for timing belt adjuster pulley) and rotating engine by hand at various belt tensions
3. Rotating engine by hand with various combinations of balance shaft belt and timing belt tensions.
4. Realigning everything and trying again. Pushing belt all the way to rear of each pulley and trying again.
5. Remove crank pulley and check for proper seating of timing belt drive pulley and balance shaft drive pulley. The timing belt drive pulley does have the washer on the back of it. I believe the washer is part of the drive pulley and cannot be removed. I have not removed the timing belt drive pulley. I have only removed the balance shaft drive pulley. I have given the drive pulleys a few light taps with a socket and mallet to ensure they are properly seated.
What I have not tried:
1. Replacing the timing belt adjuster pulley.
2. Put washers behind kaizenspeed tensioner bolts (maybe it is apply torque to the timing belt adjuster pulley?)
3. Turn it over with the JDM pulley.
4. Drain oil and check for signs of bearing wear/destruction (possible crank walk? Haven't heard anything catastrophic yet.)
5. New belt
6. Old water pump (known to track true by old timing belt.)
7. Check torque on camshaft holders (plates covering camshafts.)
8. Check for bending of service bolt that locks timing adjust pulley. This bolt does not guide the timing adjuster pulley so I doubt it is the cause.
9. Check for bending of timing adjuster pulley and balance shaft pulley guide bolt (#30). I don't think that this is the cause as it does not guide the pulley unless the pulley is tightened to the point that the inner race of the bearing is riding the bolt... and that would be extremely tight on the belt.
TL;DR. Holy **** I'm tired of messing with the timing belt. What the hell is causing my belt to walk off the cam gears and what methods do you know of fixing it?
Some of you may have seen my recent threads about swapping a Euro-R into a 5th gen and running the PCD with JDM wiring harness. Well, I have completed the swap using the PCD ecu and JDM harness and the vehicle runs with no CEL, pulls with no bogging, and generally gets in it. However, my timing belt is walking off the cam gears. The timing belt that was originally on it from the import shop clearly rode the very outside edge of the cam gear but there were no signs of rubbing on the timing covers or valve cover. When my timing belt begins to walk, and it settles just at the edge of the cam gear, you can see that the new timing belt lines up with the wear marks of the old timing belt that came on it. However, the timing belt I have put on it continues to walk until it touches the valve cover and the exhaust side of the middle timing cover. The timing belt does settle even with no covers. Once the covers are added the timing belt will get eaten up, continue to walk, continue to eat, and I'll be like that guy with a 1/2" belt.
Some general information:
1. All cylinders have ~230 psi. All cylinders are within 10% of each other.
2. When cam gears are perfectly aligned with decking marks the flywheel is ~2 degrees behind (no more than 2 degrees).
3. When flywheel shows perfect TDC the top of the intake cam gear decking mark aligns with the bottom of exhaust cam gear decking mark (on the inside of the gears). The decking marks form a nearly perfect line. The decking marks are definitely within the upper and lower limits of alignment.
4. When the vehicle is running the timing is dead on with timing light and the vehicle runs great.
Here is the setup for the timing belt:
Gates timing belt
Kaizenspeed tensioner
JDM timing belt drive pulley
JDM balance shaft drive pulley
USDM crank pulley (need to use it for power steering)
JDM crank pulley bolt
JDM timing belt adjuster pulley (timing idler pulley)
JDM balance shaft adjuster pulley
New OEM waterpump
Timing belt adjuster pulley has slight amount of rotational play along an axis passing through the hole in the pulley (it has play allowing it to tilt around guide bolt #30). The play is very minimal.
I am adjusting belt tension by setting piston #1 at TDC, rotating ~3 teeth counterclockwise, and adding/removing tension via the kaizenspeed tensioner. I don't think that I have tightened the timing belt to the same tension as the belt that was on it from the import shop. The original Honda belt was on it TIGHT.
I have noticed that throughout the crank rotation the slack will be present in different spots and at different tensions. Example, at TDC most of the slack exists between the exhaust cam and the timing belt drive pulley. Three teeth counterclockwise from TDC and most of the slack is between the water pump and intake cam. The position of the slack seems to just rotate with the engine.
The timing belt walks to the very edge of the timing belt adjuster pulley. I cannot get the belt to track center of the pulley. The belt does not touch the balance shaft adjuster pulley. I have not checked to see how far/if the timing belt is coming over the edge of the timing belt adjuster pulley, will check it tomorrow morning.
It appears as if there is a small gap between the balance shaft drive pulley and the timing belt drive pulley. The balance belt drive pulley acts as a washer to prevent the timing belt from moving forward. The portion of the balance belt drive pulley that prevents the timing belt from walking slightly protrudes from back of the balance belt drive pulley. It is tight down in the engine bay and I can't tell if there is actually a gap or if it is just dark and tight and I can't see where the two drive pulleys are touching.
I have noticed that the outside diameter of the water pump pulley appears to be slightly large than the inside diameter. When I look down the belt on the intake side from the cam pulley to the water pump it seems as if torque is being applied to the belt. The belt does not appear to be running flat from the water pump to the intake cam gear. I have a drawing that I will attach when I get home.
What I have tried:
1. Rotating the engine by hand at various belt tensions (loose as hell to pretty tight.)
2. Replacing bolt # 19 (rocker bolt for timing belt adjuster pulley) and rotating engine by hand at various belt tensions
3. Rotating engine by hand with various combinations of balance shaft belt and timing belt tensions.
4. Realigning everything and trying again. Pushing belt all the way to rear of each pulley and trying again.
5. Remove crank pulley and check for proper seating of timing belt drive pulley and balance shaft drive pulley. The timing belt drive pulley does have the washer on the back of it. I believe the washer is part of the drive pulley and cannot be removed. I have not removed the timing belt drive pulley. I have only removed the balance shaft drive pulley. I have given the drive pulleys a few light taps with a socket and mallet to ensure they are properly seated.
What I have not tried:
1. Replacing the timing belt adjuster pulley.
2. Put washers behind kaizenspeed tensioner bolts (maybe it is apply torque to the timing belt adjuster pulley?)
3. Turn it over with the JDM pulley.
4. Drain oil and check for signs of bearing wear/destruction (possible crank walk? Haven't heard anything catastrophic yet.)
5. New belt
6. Old water pump (known to track true by old timing belt.)
7. Check torque on camshaft holders (plates covering camshafts.)
8. Check for bending of service bolt that locks timing adjust pulley. This bolt does not guide the timing adjuster pulley so I doubt it is the cause.
9. Check for bending of timing adjuster pulley and balance shaft pulley guide bolt (#30). I don't think that this is the cause as it does not guide the pulley unless the pulley is tightened to the point that the inner race of the bearing is riding the bolt... and that would be extremely tight on the belt.
TL;DR. Holy **** I'm tired of messing with the timing belt. What the hell is causing my belt to walk off the cam gears and what methods do you know of fixing it?
06-30-2014, 05:08 PM
#2
Re: Timing belt walk (please help!!)
Do searches for "h22 manual tensioner conversion" and you will see what parts you should have installed. There is a washer that acts as a spacer for the tensioner pulleys. You may be missing the washer or some other parts.
07-01-2014, 04:38 AM
#3
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Re: Timing belt walk (please help!!)
I don't have an h23 manual conversion. I have a kaizenspeed manual tensioner swapped for the auto tensioner.
07-04-2014, 12:07 AM
#5
Re: Timing belt walk (please help!!)
Have you looked to see if somehow the cam gears or the crank gear is somehow bent or has came off a bit from its original position ? Perhaps even the water pump is **** eyed. I gotta think something is **** eyed.
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