mgags7

There are a bunch of threads popping up all the time about what should i do next, etc...

The most logical order of building things here would of course be firstly defined by money, i will try to keep things as well in this order as possible, and like i said in the title, this is for those who plan to go naturally aspirated.

<FONT SIZE="10"><FONT COLOR="blue">Starters:</FONT>
no opening of head nor block</FONT>

<u>Intakes </u>

The classic short ram or long ram intakes are pretty cheap these days, you can buy them on ebay for like $20. According to brad @rlz, who i will refer to quite a bit henceforth (because brad knows how to flow air. period.) a 3" cai, like the aem itr intake will be the best choice for power on most h22s....and long ram intakes will put down more than short ram in the top end. Finding the itr cai can be tough, but every now and then a generic 3" intake pops up on ebay, buy that for the $20, and then get a good filter from k&n or an apexi

I currently have a j's racing style intake on my lude....and after dyno proof and all the slew of fitment issues...i have decided to get rid of it....it is good for throttle response, but it loses a good deal or power and tq vs a traditional style intake

so the intake plus a good filter, or maybe a brand new system from aem, at the most
price $80-$200

<u>Cat-back Exhausts</u>

Any generic, straight through muffled catback will suffice for most of us. Though most systems are 60mm ID, and most good headers are 2.5" ID at the collector, the slight offset will not matter a whole lot. But, if a 2.5" ID system is in your budget, get it. A few good universal mufflers to look into are the vibrant and es oval.

<u>Headers</u>

For vendors and info of that sort, check out The Official Honda Prelude Header Thread

this is the most important mod out of these three, so consider this with more weight (and $$) than the other two

all the expensive header makers are pretty much justified, with the exception of the mugen...it cant keep up....smsp, rmf, dtr, and hytech are all awesome choices if you have the budget. With any of these, plus a good exhaust and intake, and buying an ems and tuning it(see below), 190-200whp is not out of the question.

If you dont have the $$ for a good header like above...try out a greddy or dc and do a 2.5 collector. other than that, i really dont think its worth the money for a cheaper alternative. they dont pick up much hp, and dont have any resale value

<u>Computer/Engine Management Software</u>

I know VAFCs look cool and are cheap, but with good modifications, espescially a good header, the amount of tuning needed is not (easily) attainable with a vafc. A real ems such as an aem ems, hondata, crome, etc is needed.
An AEM EMS is the best choice, as it is a full standalone ecu and it is fully customizable, but its pricetag shows it at $1000.
Hondata or crome or other things of that sort are known as "piggyback" control systems. Contact your tuner before deciding on which to use, they will probably have some preference for one or the other, either way, look at spending about $400 at the most for this. To run an h22 properly, aka maintain the function of the secondary runners (IABs) in the IM, and to keep a functioning knock sensor, you will need a p72, its an integra gsr ecu.

thanks fly

Then it will need to be socketed and chipped for whatever ems you choose. Then its off to tune.

<FONT SIZE="10"><FONT COLOR="red">Intermediate:</FONT>
head still on block, though open...</FONT>

<u>Intake Manifolds/Throttle Bodies</u>
So far the only proven choice for upgrading your stock h22 manifold for all motor has been the euro r manifold. There is a writeup on collectiveracing.net for the install, and they are available for purchase at hmotorsonline.com for a good price...
Go ahead and find a 68mm or bigger throttle body, and port match it to the manifold. H22s love the extra air, i have a 70mm waiting to go on, but according to brad, even a 74mm would be ok...

<u>Camshafts</u>
The Official H Series Camshaft Thread has some good cam info on it. Here is a summary: type s cams are better than most stage 1 cams (skunk2 and crower), the rm type s regrinds are not much different, crower is the better stage 2 (over skunk), and if you have the $$ and the patience, the jun is the best off the shelf cam for the h22. Rocket recently started making some real cams, not regrinds, for the h, but i have yet to see them installed or dynoed, so i cant give any specific info, what i can say though, is that rocket's products rarely are dissapointing. I reccomend a spring/retainer upgrade with <u>any</u> cam upgrade....better safe than sorry...trust me....

<FONT SIZE="10"><FONT COLOR="green">Advanced:</FONT>
head off</FONT>

<u>ITBs</u>
whether you would prefer to go DIY or pay over $1500 for a set of new ones, Individual Throttle Bodies are a nice addition to a lumpy set of cams. They replace the intake manifold with 4 seperate runners/throttles. Tuning these requires a knowledgeable tuner as well as crome or aem's ems...bc hondata tunes off vac pressure only, tuining itb's with hondata isnt optimum....

keep in mind at this point you are sacrificing driveability, itbs can be very quirky, and hard to maintain if you dont know what youre doing....

TWM induction and jenvey make some very nice sets....

<u>Head/Intake Manifold Port Work</u>
the key to picking up big power with a port job is who does the port....optimally you want to send your head to brad @ rlz, but im sure jg or portflow could do something for you....i would suggest endyn, and though i dont know him personally, theres something fishy about that guy....
your porter can also dig into that euro r intake manifold a good bit and get some flow out of it, or he may go full out and fab you a full custom IM....brad is in the process of this on a friends motor....and its awesome....wow is all i can say....close to/if not more than the flow of itbs...

<u>Raising Compression Ratio (by the head)</u>
In order to take full advantage of lumpy cams such the juns, or any other big cam, a raise in compression ratio is necessary. This can be achieved in many ways, from using flat faced valves (try brand supertech), which is an easy way to do this w/o digging into the block. Or a thinner head gasket/a little mill of the head could be done...but this is more of the "ghetto rig" that i tend to stay away from. Also, the combustion chambers can be "welded", or closed up a bit, in order to raise the compression.


<FONT SIZE="10"><FONT COLOR="pink">Extr3me:</FONT>
open that block up</FONT>

<u>Raising Compression Ratio (in the block)</u>
It is possible to install type s pistons, or get the block sleeved and use custom forged pistons. But, <u><FONT SIZE="2">if you do not sleeve the block, dont use any pistons except honda made pistons</u></FONT>...i have heard good preliminary things about the mahle pistons, but nothing of their longevity can be said as of yet...
Make sure to do compression calculations to make sure youre not gonna have too high compression for pump gas. 12:1 is about as much as you want to go...

<u>Increasing Displacement</u>

Like any v8 guy will tell you, there is no replacement for displacement....turbo or non, bigger motors make bigger power....period....
H22 motors are already at a large bore at 87mm stock....with sleeving this can be raised to 89mm....with a custom crank and offset boring higher bores can be achieved, but with minimal cylinder wall thickness. As dynos have shown, increasing stroke on an h series is quite advantageous....according to one dyno a 17whp/11ft lb gain was seen from just changing from the 90.7mm h22 crank to the 95mm h23/f22 crank. Another option is to use the f23 crank, at 97mm stroke, this is the biggest stroke option without going custom. Increasing stroke in this way requires careful consideration of rod length and piston compression height and dome, in order to achieve correct clearances and compression ratios.


Thats all for now...im tired....still more to come....

Matt


Modified by mgags7 at 12:44 AM 12/3/2005

Fly1865

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To run an h22 properly, aka maintain the function of the secondary runners (IABs) in the IM, and to keep a functioning knock sensor, you will need a p72, its an integra gsr ecu. Then it will need to be socketed and chipped for whatever ems you choose. Then its off to tune.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

To add to this, you could use a P28/P06. And while you are in there installing the chip you can modify it for IAB and also you can use a P14 knock board and install that on the P28/P06 and have both knock and IAB. This information can be found at http://www.pgmfi.org

EGmikeH22

honda knock sensors for H22s are worthless, they only monitor under 5500 RPM and are more for putting you into limp mode if you skipped a tooth on the exhaust cam or something, not for actually preventing engine failure at high RPM.

If i'm wrong someone tell me and i'll delete this.

Also i'd note something about reducing rotating mass, this is the best thing i've done other than compression.

SilverPanda

great info man i've been seeing a lot of these posts lately too

PreLuDeSiR

Can anyone verify what EGmikeH22 said about the knock sensor? I will be running a hondata s200 on a p28 for my H23 and would like to know the drawbacks of not having a functioning knock sensor. I no longer have IAB's so that part doesn't bother me....

aeolus

another thing that works is if u can find a solenoid valve that will open and release the vacuum pressure from the iab dash pot,u can have ur iab's open when vtec hits.i did this with my p28 and hondata.Works out pretty good so far.And for the knock sensor,if u have ur engine tuned right,and always use 91 octane,it shouldnt be a problem.its there just in case u decide to use 89 octane and it pretty much retards ur timing a bit and opens up the egr valve more.

Dongoesby

I have a question for THESE plans for moding your NA H22a

In general I understand why people do the Starter Step, which is IHE to gain some HP, but then talking about the Intermediate Step, even though I'm motivated to do this somehow(JUN cam you know~ ). I heard lotz about it, but what is the REAL advantage for Stage 1 or Jun cam, and piston? Vtec kicks in stronger and quicker? Power goes more smooth? But what if talking about Gas mileage? Does H-motor really has so many weaknesses that we need to work on? Is this actually improving the motor OVERALL or simply wasting money as like some hobby?

For the Advanced and Extreme, SLEEVE the BLOCK, is that really necessary to do this on a street? I mean I know people do what they want, but is this what it takes to smoke some mustangs on the street by this?

Sorry for the long write again, but really need some lessons from experts here.

PreLuDeSiR

Yea, I ran for a while with a bad knock sensor and it didn't really affect performance, but just want to here more about its functions and the effects of having it disabled. But again with the p28, it doesn't control the EGR as well. What should I do about this. I'm from CA so I always keep emissions in mind although I don't always follow the rules like many others. What is the best choice in terms of 1) removing it and putting a block off plate, 2) just leave it there disabled or 3) can I do something to make it function properly without too much work?

for Dongoesby, quick and easy answer, aftermarket cams give you higher lift and/or longer duration which makes your valves open more and/or for a longer period of time which gives the engine more air and fuel which results in more hp. (go to the official h series camshaft thread for more info, numbers, options, opinions, etc.) The h series is a great motor stock but if you want more power, do what you do and btw, most of us will sacrifice a lil less MPG for alot more power and some things, but very few, sghould increase your MPG like an aftermarket intake. You talk of improving the motor, many of us here at H-T usually "improve" are motors by swapping out parts to make more power. Again, somethings but very few, will actually make the motor more reliable i.e. auto to manual tensioner conversion for H22's. But no motor will last as long as a bone stock motor. Sleeving the block is necessary for h series to run forged pistons to make high compression N/A cars or low compression FI cars.


And heres an even quicker and easier answer...

SEARCH

Dongoesby

omg, i've been searching for my lifetime and reading till my eyes hurt

but thanks for your answer, very helpful

PirateMcFred

Good threads along the lines of this subject too:

Good to read when modifying *any* car not just a Prelude.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=683477

Specific info about NA Preludes:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=180883

Found in the FAQ

Pirate

mgags7

yeah pirate, but a lot of new stuff has come out since jg wrote that second one...so i figured a new one would be nice...

in regards to knock sensors, they are there to detect pinging, or premature combustion of gasoline due to insufficient octane levels, or some combination of ignition timing and the weather....its a good idea to keep one, it will save gas and cut down on pinging(which is smaller scale detonation)....

don, these mods are to pull more hp out of the 22....and even in my car, with a 4.71 final drive, and an rmf header, i get the same, if not better gas mileage than i did stock.....my tuner tuned all the partial throttle stuff at 14.7 and it runs great w/o using much gas...

to make vtec smoother you can lower it a bit....

OutlawCL

Nice thread mgags7. I have a question though: what mods from the intermediate level onward will affect smog? My car is a daily driver and I don't feel like paying someone off.

EGmikeH22

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
in regards to knock sensors, they are there to detect pinging, or premature combustion of gasoline due to insufficient octane levels, or some combination of ignition timing and the weather....its a good idea to keep one, it will save gas and cut down on pinging(which is smaller scale detonation)....

to make vtec smoother you can lower it a bit....</TD></TR></TABLE>

anyone can look up what a knock sensor does, but I was talking about the H22 knock sensor and how its readings were used in the P13 code. as I understand they are not used like high-performance knock sensors that listen for pinging at high RPM when we'd expect it as tuners, but they listen for the "glass jar full of marbles" that would result from some wayy off ignition timing.

and to make VTEC smoother it just needs to be in the right place, not necessarily lower, and smoother could mean while you are in VTEC it is smooth, or when it engages it is a smooth transition. If I put it at 3000 RPM i'll loose power when it engages, then at about 5200 it just pulls into action very awkwardly, but if its too high, say 6000, it kicks very hard when it engages since the low cam was already pretty much petered out. If its set right it will smoothly transition from the low cam, as well as operate smoothly throughout the high cam.

mgags7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EGmikeH22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">anyone can look up what a knock sensor does, but I was talking about the H22 knock sensor and how its readings were used in the P13 code. as I understand they are not used like high-performance knock sensors that listen for pinging at high RPM when we'd expect it as tuners, but they listen for the "glass jar full of marbles" that would result from some wayy off ignition timing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

low rpm driveability is where i spend most of my time...so i will keep my knock sensor....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EGmikeH22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
and to make VTEC smoother it just needs to be in the right place, not necessarily lower, and smoother could mean while you are in VTEC it is smooth, or when it engages it is a smooth transition. If I put it at 3000 RPM i'll loose power when it engages, then at about 5200 it just pulls into action very awkwardly, but if its too high, say 6000, it kicks very hard when it engages since the low cam was already pretty much petered out. If its set right it will smoothly transition from the low cam, as well as operate smoothly throughout the high cam.</TD></TR></TABLE>

putting vtec lower makes the transition smoother period....the power will not just awkwardly come on at the normal vtec point....the cam will just load up in the lower rpm.....

setting it "right" is pretty subjective....put the car on a dyno and see what it pulls with it where...period....

The_Head

VTEC crossover... You dont want to set it too low, you'll have a big torque hole in the powerband.

Same thing happens if you set it too high, and thats what has happened when you get that mad VTEC turbo power surge

mgags7

lol...yeah smoother vtec is not one of my goals....but dongoesby is a bit concerned...

The Birdman

Good trabajo matt

besides the rotating mass being addressed like stated above, I think that covers most of the basics

edit:

As far as adding to the rotating mass portion... here is a good link to be added for that section (It will be a good thread once all the weights are posted, I could only help with one... ) If anyone knows the weights of any of the unknown on the rod list, Post them up on this thread

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1451749

DCFIVER

Couple of questions:

1. Isn't the AEM CAI for the Prelude "3???
2. Is there a such thing as Too big as far as the TB goes??

mgags7

im not 100% sure...but i dont think the prelude aem is 3", but i could be wrong....ill look around a bit

yes there is such thing as too big....but for an h22 that is hard to reach with off the shelf stuff...it will flow enough air to justify a 70mm....thats as big as i reccomend....

Dai_Ca_Vietnam_H22a4

A round of applause for mags7. Well written. I was always interested in the Euro-R intake manifold, but never got around to it.

prelittlelude

hey cool thread, this is big pimpin, one suggestion ill make to people is always check the FAQ there are alot of threads that adress issues that tie into everyone of the steps in this plan.

good werk man!

h22aCb7

Just some info to add, Crome and Hondata are not considered "piggyback" systems, those are safc's, e-manage, aem FIC, ect... Crome and Hondata are ROM editors.

NirVTEC

Hahaha....what a bunch of BULLSHIT!!!!
TypeS>S2S1 Sureeeee! TypeS 2-5whp S2S1 12-15whp YOU DECIDE!
Crower2 better than S2S2??? BULLSHIT!!! What did Blakes C2s make? 5-7whp?
I'll give you this post is 4yrs old......it was BS back then and is still BS today.

dagle

iTrader: (1)

lol... just some info to add, you bumped a 4 year old thread..

wonder what ever did happen to matt

NirVTEC

who cares.....bad info back then, never backed it up with data...
He was right about 1 thing, JUN FTW!
And IIRC Rockets Cams ended up being ****!!!!