LudeBehavi0r

Ok, so here is the problem. I would smell gas from time to time at idle or if i stopped and reversed, but never had any CEL codes.

Ran the car on a p72 with a base map for longer than I wanted (~1 yr) and was able to get ahold of an OBDII P13 (part # 37820-p13-A12) for my H22 swapped 4th gen. Converted the engine to OBDII and car ran with no probs or cells for the entire time, just ran a bit rich.

Plugged the "new to me" OBDII P13 that I purchased online from AutoComputersDirect.com on ebay and within 50 miles I got the p0441 EVAP insufficient purge flow error. In my searching to find a fix, i tested the purge flow solenoid and the switch. I thought the solenoid was bad bc i could only get it to "click" sometimes when i was testing it so I replaced it ($214 from Honda -- Denso).

All of this happened right before I moved from Raleigh, NC to San Diego Ca and pretty much the first few hours the light came back on. Checked the codes when we stopped that night @ the hotel and I had the p0441 code and a new p0170 "Fuel Trim Malfunction Bank 1". So I did more research and purchased a Denso o2 sensor from sparkplugs.com for $40 on August 31st. I replaced the o2 sensor after we got to San Diego.

Car continues to run better after the two fixes and I dont smell gas like I used to at idle, but the cel continues to come back on. My gas mileage definitely improved 5-8 mpg, but there is no way im going to pass my freakin smog inspection with this BS happening.
I have already:
1) checked vacuum lines from the charcoal canister
2)checked the vacuum diagram on the bottom of the hood
3) Did my best to test the evap purge switch

The only other thing I could think of is that I need to "clean the system" because I did find some black resin/gunk inside of the IM on the other side of the throttle body butterfly.

I would have just waited in NC to take care of all this, but i had to come out for an exam for a state job I wanted. Needless to say, my inspection was due on August 31, 2010 and im beginning to get very frustrated. Im hemorrhaging $ and time and I HAVE to get my inspection sticker and CA plates ASAP.

If anyone in the San Diego area would like to offer there expertise I would very much appreciate any help/advice you can give. Tomorrow im going to call Autocomputersdirect and try to have them send me another computer to see if that will fix it. Could it be that they didnt give me a California Emissions rated computer as I requested? A friend of mines dad owns Japan Direct in Raleigh and suggested I either try another OBDII computer to see if the sensors realy are bad.

Kronn 98SH

Did you follow ALL troubleshooting outlined in the Helms?

LudeBehavi0r

Long story short, i have a manual on cdrom and before the cdrom drive died on my computer I did it to the best of my knowledge. Someone else with the same problem made a thread and individuals posted things from the manual for what they should do and i followed that.

It doesnt make sense though. The EVAP system is vacuum lines, the charcoal canister, purge flow switch, and the solenoid and i checked all of those and replaced the solenoid. To my knowledge i tested the switch and it works properly. I measured infinite voltage with no vacuum (switch off) and pretty much zero (with vacuum). From what I read, that means the switch is ok and like I said before, the solenoid valve is a new Denso unit from Honda.

Kronn 98SH

Well I have to agree with the last sentence of your original post.

LudeBehavi0r

Well F....

Thanks for your help bro.

Does anyone have a picture of vacuum lines for a 1996 H22 in a prelude?

LudeBehavi0r

Cancel that, just did some more research and discovered that 1996 H22 Preludes only came in manual.

Looks like #1 im gonna have to do a warranty claim and send my computer back to where i purchased it or #2 find someone with one in San Diego thats gonna let me plug it up and check it....FML

LudeBehavi0r

Has anyone had the p0441 insufficient purge flow DTC and resulted in replacing #2 in the attached image?

Its the two way valve that is attached to the fuel tank that i assume routes the vapors to the charcoal canister and thus is purged with the switch and solenoid into the intake manifold?

...i just got the form to do a warranty claim for the computer so in the mean time while I wait for my p72 with basemap to get to me (i still need to be able to drive) im tryin to come up with other idears.

Sorry the image quality is so sh*tty

Kronn 98SH

Picture is too small. Next time use Alt+PrntScrn instead of just PrntScrn.

LudeBehavi0r

Thanks for the suggestion, hope this makes it easier.

DCFIVER

You need to look at the ff data and see what the evap system is doing at the time of the fault. You may have faulty wiring or something similar..

LudeBehavi0r

FF data being freeze frame data from the diagnostics tool that im using to get the codes?

I dont see a row for EVAP system...when i go out tomorrow ill do another analysis. Earlier today i went to see if the system was ready to be inspected again and both codes were in the "pending" section again. Im assuming that the light will come back on shortly. There are probably something close to 65 miles on this check engine light reset.

DCFIVER

Right freeze frame. Yes evap criteria is a bitch to reset...

LudeBehavi0r

OK, so the check engine light came on again last night around 100 miles since I last reset it. I will attach a couple images of data that I gathered from the proscan 5.0 tool that im using.

So this time what set the MIL light off was a p0172 -- fuel system too rich code and i did a bit of searching online and saw that a dirty air filter could possibly cause this. I know for a fact that I need a new one, so ill add that to my list of things to order (and prol go do that today).

So I hope these images can help you guys help me. I really wanna get this fixed so I can get my California inspection and plates taken care of plus there are other things the car needs in the near future like a radiator and clutch slave cylinder.

here are the images

DCFIVER

Good you have a generic scanner. Post up a screen shot of your vehicle at idle. Most important I need to see is fuel trims, O2 sensor,coolant temp, MAP value. Can you control the evap system with your scanner?? A dirty filter will not make you run rich.

LudeBehavi0r

I can get that for you tomorrow morning/afternoon. I tried to capture as much of that as I could in that last image (all of those values are at idle when the car was not at full operating temp.

From what I can tell, I cannot control EVAP system with the scanner. Ill mess around with it some more tomorrow afternoon to see if I can find something.

When you say u need those values, do you mean just add those values to the same screen I put up in my last attached image? Also do you want values at normal operating temp or cold?

Thanks a ton for your help, def glad i didnt order that filter yet then. This is driving me f'in crazy and frankly im ab to send my computer back to the place I got it from once my P72 gets here (from Raleigh, where I just moved from).

DCFIVER

operating temp.

LudeBehavi0r

Ok, here is more data. I took a screen shot of the sensor monitoring 1 cold, and 2 hot. The first image is right when I started the car and it was cold. Next one is right when the third normal operating temp bar came up and the final image is after the car had been running a few minutes after it was at full operating temp.

Sorry its so late in the day, i had job interview stuff goin on most of the day.

The car does not seem to be running badly, I dunno whats goin on.

Also, I checked the scan tool again and EVAP stuff is NOT supported with this proscan.

Finally the very last image is of ALL sensors. I realized in the first 3 that I neglected to check the "bank 1, sensor 2" box.

Kronn 98SH

Didn't I already explain to use Alt+PrntScrn vs just PrntScrn?

LudeBehavi0r

I know its small, but its not unreadable. Do you have any positive/constructive analysis of the data to add to the search for a fix?

Also I wasnt sure if alt+prntSc just grabbed the window on top and enlarged it vs the entire screen (with just prtSc).

Tried to do it from the images that I already had saved and it didnt work. I will remember to do it from now on when I use prntSc

DCFIVER

Wow you are running EXTREMELY rich. Do you have the right PCM installed yet?? You must be getting really shitty gas milage right now. And with those numbers you are gonna fry your cat in no time. The only variable is the scanner.(Some times after market scanners or software display incorrect information. I have never heard of Proscan. ) If the information is accurate then you have a serious problem. Id say a fuel leak. But i will refrain from further comment til you update me on the PCM info.

LudeBehavi0r

Yes, i allegedly have the correct PCM. I purchased it from AutocomputersDirect on Ebay and the serial numbers match and everything. I was considering sending it back to them to see if something was wrong. My gas mileage is really shitty and im sure the cat is probably toast already, i had to drive across the country with it like this.

What kinda fuel leak are we talking about? Stuck injectors, fuel pressure reg too high? This is ****in nuts dude. Thanks for our help so far.

LudeBehavi0r

Mgags7 helped me calibrate the TPS today. After looking at the data again he noticed that at idle the thing was reading 14.xxx% when it should say 0.00% or close to it.

Before we messed with it we checked the voltage accross it with a V/OHM meter and it was like 0.67V at closed throttle and its supposed to be 0.45V-0.55V at 0.00% throttle. Hopefully that helped a little bit.

Hopefully that fixed it, but I welcome any other constructive advice.

LudeBehavi0r

Ok, so after adjusting the TpS sensor so that it was in the correct voltage range at 0% throttle (.44V-.55V) I drove it a bit and collected some more data which I have included below.....this time I used alt+PrtSc.

Im still a bit curious as to how DCFiver concluded that I was running super rich from the readings. Should my fuel trim bank readings be smaller or bigger numbers? Im assuming they should be between 12-15 and not 18-23 like what im seeing.


Anyways, I think I need to go in and adjust the TPS a bit closer to the low end of that voltage range, but i have to get another ohm meter first, Mgags7 took his with him. My scan tool still says it is calculating ~23% load when the car is obviously at idle. In the first few images (before we adjusted the TPS) the load percentage is the same, but the absolute throttle position is a bit different. It was at like 15.5% and now its down to ~10.xxx% and some change.

Would a real dirty air filter cause the load to be calculated a bit higher?

Does anyone have any input? Any help/suggestions would be appreciated.

DCFIVER

Fuel trims are fuel strategies used by the PCM. STFT should be at 0(+-3%) at idle and LTFT should also be at 0(+-10%) LTFT has a larger margin of error to compensate for engine wear. LTFT utilizes STFT readings to adjust accordingly. The LTFT's job is to keep the STFT in the proper window. STFT are realtime and indicate how the much fuel the engine is runnning based off of o2 sensor readings. If the PCM sees to much fuel (or more accurately not enough oxygen) it wil addjust accordingly. So a -18% reading means that the engine is running rich because the PCM has to subtract fuel. The LTFT is trying to get the engine back into stoich but is unable to. So thats why it is at -23%. And also why it set a rich code. A misadjusted tps can cause this because the PCM thinks you are under a load and increases the injectors PWM. Get your mind of off the dirty air filter. it will not cause any problem other than a loss of power and fuel milage. Look man I diagnose cars for a living but i cant do much from the internet. There are too many variables. the best advice I can give is to say if there are no obviously mechanical problems then you have an electrical problems. Likely a bad sensor giving false information. Find a good shop.

LudeBehavi0r

Thanks for your help man and the explanation. You wouldnt be located anywhere near San Diego would you? Or have any suggestions on a "good" shop to check out. I just moved here like 3 weeks ago so im pretty fresh on the car "scene" here and so far none of my friends/room mates are tech and car savvy.

We are going to try to get the voltage of the TPS down to the lower end of that range to see if we can get the absolute throttle position to truly read 0.00%. If we are unable to get the car to cooperate after proper calibration, do you have a rough idea of sensors that I should check? TPS, MAP, secondary O2?