kotetu

UPDATE: I've updated the bleeding section with links to 2 articles.

Hey guys! I finished my brake install in about 3 hours with a friend. Pretty good time, it was the first time I've done the full install. We did one side at a time, if you are competent, you may do one and have your friend do the other.

Here's a DIY, I suggest you verify EVERYTHING in my list BEFORE ATTEMPTING ANYTHING!!! I take no responsibility for you hurting or killing yourself or anyone else. As always, if you do this mod, you are responsible for the results. Please be safe!

If anyone notices that I have left anything out or made a mistake, please point it out immediately!!

Enjoy!

Aaron

Parts installed:
1995 Legend GS Sedan front calipers (including pad spring)
1995 Legend GS Sedan front caliper brackets (including pad retainers)
1995 Legend GS Sedan Brembo Blank rotors (28mm)
Goodridge Stainless steel braided front brake lines

Tools used:
10mm wrench
12mm socket
14mm socket
17mm socket
19mm socket
1/4 and 3/4 ratchet
rubber mallet
impact driver
2 pairs of plyers (for those hard to access places)
various extenders and adapters
6000 lbs jack
jack stands
heavy duty ZIP ties
clippers (for zip ties)
a couple of flat head screwdrivers
a few small blocks of wood (for clamping to the calipers during bleeding)
Plastic jar or pitcher (to catch brake fluid)
bag of rags (to keep it clean)

Install time:
3 hours, with friend.


Install procedure:
Preparations!
01) obtain all parts first!

02) make sure you have at least 2-3 hours of free time and a friend to help!

03) get a copy or printout of the appropriate pages of the Helms manual

04) gather all of the tools

05) Print out this DIY!!! =D

Break down!
06) loosen all 10 lugs on the front wheels

07) make sure parking break is up, car can be in or out of gear

08) jack up car (from the front) so the wheels are about 2-3 inches off of the ground

09) place jack stands behind front wheels, to support the jack and protect your life

10) double check all jacks and supports to make sure that everything is safe.

11) remove 10 lugs from front wheels, remove wheels (don't scratch your wheels!)
You will now see the rotor, single piston caliper, bracket, and behind these the dust shield, rubber brake line, and suspension.

12) loosen and remove caliper bolts (2 behind the rotor)

13) zip tie caliper up to one of the supports for the suspension (not the spring) - Make sure you get it out of the way of the rest of your work, you will get back to this later.

14) remove, and place in a safe location, your brake pads.

15) loosen and remove the bracket bolts (2 more behind the rotor)

16) remove the caliper bracket and put it in a box

17) Using the impact driver, carefully pound and remove the 2 screws holding the brake rotor onto the hub.

18) remove the old brake rotor

19) unbolt brakeline from brake caliper, taking care to use a rag to avoid spillage
19b - cut ziptie holding old brake caliper, be careful the fluid does not spill! (plug the hole)

20) place end of brake line into the jar you brought to catch the brake fluid -
let this drip here for a while, maybe 10 minutes.


Installation!
21) Install new Legend rotor taking care to align the screw holes. Don't use the impact driver to tighten the screws! wipe down rotor with a clean cloth.

22) Install legend caliper bracket

23) replace your brake pads in the bracket

24) mount the Legend caliper on the upper bolt only!

25) swing caliper upwards (to point the bleed bolt and nipple up

26) zip tie the caliper so it does not fall back down.

27) optional step Remove the rubber brake lines (2 bolts) and replace them with the Goodgridge (or other brand) Stainless steel lines,

28) Attach your brake lines to the Legend caliper, using the 2 washers from the old caliper.

At this point you should double check all of your work, make sure everything is snug, not tight, (though the brake line fittings should be tight). If you are doing one side at a time, now is the appropriate time to do the other side. You are now ready to bleed the brakes! congrats!

Bleeding!

For bleeding, make sure you bleed the ENTIRE system, front and back. I'm including two links to bleeding articles, so you have some background. Remember that you'll need to angle the calipers up.

29) Take those small blocks of wood and carefully wedge them into the calipers. you may need more than one block. I used 3, and zip tied them in place. Try to fill nearly the entire volume of the caliper. You don't want those pistons popping out!

30-32)Article 1 Article 2

33) Repeat as necessary!

34) remove the wood blocks from the calipers, and gently slide the calipers down over the pads. (This may be a little difficult to do, but if you filled most of the caliper with the wood block, it won't be too bad.)

35) Bolt the lower caliper bolt to the bracket, and tighten all bolts in the brake system that need tightening.
35a) Before mounting wheels, double check ALL of the brake bolts and screws! There are 2 screws in the rotor, 2 bolts on the caliper, 2 bolts on the bracket, and 1 bolt on the brake line.

36) mount your two front wheels

37) test the car in a parking lot. test it a LOT. at slow speeds. Don't exceed 15 miles per hour. Remove the wheels and triple check the brake bolts!

If your car performed well, take it up to traffic speeds of 25-35 miles per hour and try some gradual stops. If you have done everything right, the braking should feel better than it did before you began. Run the car for a day or two, TAKING IT EASY!!!, and then you may want to bleed the brakes again, just to be safe.

You are DONE!! Congradulations and enjoy your new twin piston braking system!!! :D

If you have problems with the brakes, if they feel loose or unresponsive, then you still have air in the system. Go back to step 30, and bleed them again. Remember that while you are bleeding you need to build up brake pressure with the brake bleed bolt TIGHT. Once most of the air is out of the system, it will start to feel quite good!

Good luck guys! Remember to take is slow and cautious, and be safe! Your brakes are your life, be patient with the install and it will work out.


One of these days I WILL get pics!


Modified by kotetu at 7:19 PM 6/18/2004

4g4me

wow, good write up, we needs pics.....

Question: would this DIY how to apply to the nsx calipers as well? Could i buy all the parts for the legend sedan, but substitute NSX calipers for the LEGEND calipers?

racerx

Save yourself the hassle and get loaded calipers. Those retaining clips and shims are costly as hell if bought seperatly.

gandhisan

Great writeup!

one me!

He did it at my place and i know he didnt take pics But the writeup is thorough.

4g4me

Question: would this DIY how to apply to the nsx calipers as well? Could i buy all the parts for the legend sedan, but substitute NSX calipers for the LEGEND calipers?

kotetu

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4g4me &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Question: would this DIY how to apply to the nsx calipers as well? Could i buy all the parts for the legend sedan, but substitute NSX calipers for the LEGEND calipers? </TD></TR></TABLE>

be more patient!

I did not install the NSX brake calipers, so I couldn't say for sure. I think the install would be similar. The calipers are (on visual inspection) virtually identical. There may be differences in thickness of rotors, bolt sizes, etc.

Here are some problems I have noticed on the second day (after a longer drive):

the rotors are scraping something
after 40 miles of driving, a clunking noise has appeared (assuming something is loose)
The prelude SS brake lines are pretty TIGHT when mounted to the Legend calipers.

I'm having my work checked right now, so we'll see what the mechanic says. I'll post again in an hour or so.


Modified by kotetu at 9:27 PM 8/1/2003

kotetu

Ok, so I talked to the brake guys about the car, here is what they said:

A bolt came out from underneath the drivers side caliper bracket. (This was the clunking noise.) I must have missed double checking that tightness, Double check everything!

the shims slid off of a couple of the pads due to the tightness of the legend pistons, and because I had the rotated the calipers down onto the rotor after bleeding.

The SS brake lines are pinched, because the line connects to the caliper on the bottom. I can either get longer brake lines to keep them from pinching, or rotate the calipers left to right and right to left.

Lastly, I asked them about the brake pad wear, being that the caliper pistons are different sizes, they said it would not cause any significant unevenness in the pad wear. I'm going to double check them every couple of weeks.

So! here is what I am going to have done:
swap calipers for now (checking the pads every couple of weeks)
remove front pad shims (the ones that are coming off)
replace lost bolt
flush and bleed entire system

Here is what I have learned (for $60):
Always double check all of the bolts.
Always double check for pinched lines.
Always double check for displaced shims.

Cheers!

kotetu

Thanks Gandhisan! I really appreciate your patience and generosity.

4g4me

I have been looking for a set of used or reman legend calipers all damn day. Anyone know someone who might carry these? Junk yard, auto parts center? http://www.acuraautomotiveparts.org doesnt even have a listing.


Modified by 4g4me at 4:26 PM 8/1/2003

kotetu

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Save yourself the hassle and get loaded calipers. Those retaining clips and shims are costly as hell if bought seperatly.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're right on that count. I was disappointed to find out that the calipers I got came with NO pad spring and no bracket or retainers.

I got lucky though, because I found someone who was willing to trade my 23T brackets for his 28T brackets. He sent me the retainers with the brackets in trade for my brackets and retainers. For the pad springs, Volkracing sent me those pretty cheap, because he's got an extra set.

Clockwork

Can I ask why you put Legend break set-up on a prelude? What is the advantage of that??
Clockwork

4g4me

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Clockwork &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can I ask why you put Legend break set-up on a prelude? What is the advantage of that??
Clockwork</TD></TR></TABLE>



Twin piston calipers...yumm

kotetu

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Clockwork &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can I ask why you put Legend break set-up on a prelude? What is the advantage of that??
Clockwork</TD></TR></TABLE>

The twin piston caliper setup I have now provides more even braking, so the pads will last longer, I won't experience brake fade as much; and the thicker rotors cool more efficiently.

racerx

From what I understand, the NSX caliper pistons are both 38mm where the Legends pistons are 40mm and 38mm. However, the NSXs calipers are made out of aluminum to reduce unsprung weight. Either way theres a trade off. It just depends whats more valuble to you, a little more braking or a little more ride quality.

BTW, I`m running Goodridge ss lines made for my car and have no problems with pinching or pulling.

kotetu

Nah, the nsx caliper pistons aren't both 38mm, they are 40 and 36



I think the legend pistons are 42mm and 38mm:
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=134651

yah I am gonna try to swing the goodridge lines away from the retaining bracket on the caliper (that little fork cast into the body) to keep them from pinching.

Sam97

does anyone know where i can get the NSX calipers that actually say "NSX" other than from Honda???

Daboi630

another difference between NSX vs Legend calipers. the NSX bleed nipple is located the same as our preludes.

so there is no need to swap calipers for the nipple to face upwards like the Legend calipers.

but swapping calipers (left to right, right to left) may or may not be safe. i kept them the same and when i need to bleed just flip the caliper up.

kotetu

Hey I found some Brembo documentation for why the smaller piston is the leading piston:

"The Brembo front calliper is a four-piston fixed calliper design with twin pistons on each side of the calliper, each pair dedicated to a pad. This advanced design features a smaller 40mm piston diameter at the front of the calliper to reduce the force on the leading edge of the brake pad. A 44mm piston in the rear of the calliper then exerts extra force on the pad to compensate for the tendency of the pad’s leading edge to bite into the rotor. This radically improves brake life and performance. "



Modified by kotetu at 3:48 PM 8/3/2003

kotetu

edit Someone helped me out on another board, editing this post to reflect it.

I knew something seemed weird. But then again it was 4AM:

I kept taking PSI and square inches (area of pistons) and still got PSI instead of force in lbs!

So given that the line pressure is constant for both pistons, (PSI*Area, not PSI/Area), the larger piston applies a higher force to the rotor.... which means it should be the trailing piston. In that case, the diagram on the left should be correct.



This diagram I drew brings to mind several questions:

Which is the "front" of the caliper?
which side is the "leading" edge?
should the small piston be at leading or trailing on the caliper?

The "front" of the caliper is the same as the FRONT of the car, but the "leading" edge of the caliper is the side towards the REAR of the car.

This means to reduce pad wear, the trailing piston must exert more pressure to reduce the 'biting' of the leading piston on the pad. The leading piston bites because of it's position at the edge of the 'incoming' rotor surface.

So, to increase the pressure on the the trailing piston, we should make it the *larger* piston.


Modified by kotetu at 3:58 PM 8/3/2003

Daboi630

hey kotetu the pics are good, but i got a question.

where are the bleed nippes on the calipers in the pic? i just wanted to know which way my setup is. i swapped mine so it *should* be the left pic, correct?

to answer your question i think the left pic is the right way. its the way it was on the legend.

kotetu

Since Honda wouldn't make a mistake with the piston order, the left diagram is correct, and the bleed nipple would be near the larger piston, facing towards bottom.

It's on the bottom only because we drive preludes, on the legend the caliper is on the top of the rotor, so the nipple still faces up.

See my modified pic. The green tab is an approximation of where I the bleed nipple is.

4g4me

good thread....so the NSX calipers will not require odd bleeding methods?

GODluvsLUDES

21) Install new Legend rotor taking care to align the screw holes. Don't use the impact driver to tighten the screws!

If it takes an impact driver to REMOVE them. What do you use in place of it to torque them back? Any specific torque specs?

kotetu

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GODluvsLUDES &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">21) Install new Legend rotor taking care to align the screw holes. Don't use the impact driver to tighten the screws!

If it takes an impact driver to REMOVE them. What do you use in place of it to torque them back? Any specific torque specs?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It takes an impact driver to remove them because during driving they are constandly heating and expanding, then cooling and contracting. This process makes them very tight.

Check this out for your reference:
http://www.ntpog.org/mods/four...shtml

Also, Wontbebeat on this board put up some brake articles on accordinglydone.com:
http://www.accordinglydone.com/tech.php?ID=76


The NSX calipers appear to be mounted like Prelude calipers, so their bleed nipples are correctly aligned already. For the extra $500 you are gonna spend, I'd rather just take the odd bleeding method.

racerx

I see you`ve been doing your homework

The steped pistons are actually still from the days of asbestos pads. The first piston would cause the pad to heat up and release a gas. The second piston was there to keep the pad from being pushed back by the gas. Now the stepped caliper still helps. It helps the pad from tapering.

If you want some good reading about brake systems, check out the book called Brake Systems; OEM and Racing Brake Technology. Its got all sorts of good brake math in it too. If you want, I`ll post it.

DOH! I forgot about the brake line aligner thats cast into the caliper! Mine are outside of it so that it wouldn`t pull on the line.