NMJimCRV

Just did a crap load of front end work on the CRV:

New lower ball joints
New upper control arms
New outer tie rods
New passenger side CV axle

Now, when it is all back together, I get the no crank, no start. Not even a clicking when trying to start. I can hear the fuel pump relay, I get all lights and power, but the lights do not dim when trying to crank over and the starter is not engaging.

The only electrical touching work done in all this was:

Had to remove the battery to remove the battery plat to get to the bolt for the passenger side control arm

Unclipped a power connector over by an upper control arm bolt on the driver side

Unclipped the MAF sensor on the throttle body as I had to remove the air housing to get to the bolts for passenger side upper control arm


There is no ABS on this car, so no wires were disconnected when doing all the suspension work. I have removed the battery terminals repeatedly and made sure they are tightly seated, no corrosion. It is acting like there is no load being drawn for the starter.

Tomorrow I will have the battery tested and will jump the starter to see what happens. Any other thoughts? Anyone have this happen when you replaced the upper control arms and all this other work?

OneBadTurboCRV

I have never heard of or seen this issue before unless somebody accidentally arced some power wires. Have you checked to make sure the starter solenoid wire didn't get knocked off accidentally? Verify all connections you removed are fully seated also. Other than that grab a Digital Multi-Meter and go to town diagnosing.

NMJimCRV

Of course, NOW is when my multi-meter goes missing. For years it has been in one spot. Now.....poof. Never freaking easy.

NMJimCRV

Here is a video of what is happening. I get no click or clunk, no lights dimming when I try to turn over. I jumped the solenoid to the positive terminal of the battery and I can hear what sounds like the starter turning but it does not actually start the engine.


I swapped batteries with a known working battery from my Nissan truck, and get the same result. There are no codes being thrown. I have put the car in N and pushed it back and forth, and done the same in gear, just to move the tranny around. No joy.

??

OneBadTurboCRV

Definitely sounds like the bendix is not engaging the flex plate. Remove the starter and test it on a bench to see if the bendix is extending. This still doesn't explain it not getting a starter signal. Unless it is getting the solenoid signal in the second part of your video? Or is that you jumping the solenoid?

NMJimCRV

That's me jumping the solenoid. There is absolutely nothing at all normally. If I jump the solenoid you get that motor whine. What is puzzling is the lack of power drain when trying to start (no drop in light at all, even on high beam). This definitely means there is no load whatsoever being tasked to the battery, right? I am trying to avoid running out and buying a starter if that is not the problem. I don't get how it could fail because I changed the suspension parts. Weird.

NMJimCRV

Wondering:

I had to bang the ever loving crap out of the lower control arm to loosen the lbj, so a lot of vibrations bouncing through the vehicle. I wonder if that shook something bad in the solenoid/starter? On the passenger side it is a bit close, so maybe vibrations affected it? It appears the neutral safety switch is right there in the passenger wheel well. I am 90% certain I did not bang it, but it may have been shaken up with all the pounding. All the gear indicator lights work, and all that (it is a reverse light, gear indicator neutral switch combo), but maybe, just maybe, it got funky with the banging. I will see what I can see on it tomorrow.

OneBadTurboCRV

I had a full out response but it looks like you figured it out and Honda-Tech forced my refresh haha... Yes it is called a Gear Position Switch but it in fact also operates as a Neutral Safety Switch as well. It is located down by the starter. Again, I am leaning more towards the starter bendix sticking, solenoid failure, or starter motor magnet failure (which can happen from hammering and possibly overcome with enough current). It would be best to pull the starter and inspect it's operation on a bench. I provided a picture for your enjoyment because I like you for some reason.

NMJimCRV

Lol, thanks. I just 3 minutes ago printed that very same page, along with 14-140 through 14-142. I'll bench test the starter, but may go ahead and pull the gear position switch to inspect and clean it as well. The hammering may have jolted that thing out of the neutral position ?? It may simply need to be reset to neutral, which the manual states will click when set. If that is all I need to do, woo hoo!

Whatever the case may wind up being, if the starter/solenoid or GPS went **** up, that will be a good thing to post in write-ups about changing the LBJ on the passenger side, as the only thing I can think of is the hammering on that lower control arm. I did beat it like it owed me money.

NMJimCRV

Gear Position Switch - FTW!

Solved it. The starter is fine, it is the gear position switch. I was really thinking that was it, based on the fact there was no problem before, did all that hammering in the area, then it really appeared that the circuit was not closing for the starter as opposed to it not engaging.

Here is where the GPS resides - I have it off the vehicle.



To the lower left is the lower control arm, which I had to bang on (from the other side) to release the lower ball joint and the tie rod. Hard. Multiple times. So it must have shook and rattled the wire connections in the switch.

I took it apart and cleaned the inside - sorry no pics. Put it back together and it worked, then didn't, then did. If it stops working I shake that cable wrap coming out of it and it makes it work again. Tonight I am pulling it back out and will see if there is a damaged wire/solder point that is loosing connection.

Interesting as well - the continuity test was indicating only what the RM states is Park, though the switch was in Neutral I could not get continuity on any other gear, at all. So again, when I have it back off I will really dig into the solder points, which is behind the contact plate (that I did not investigate).

Anyway, it is firing now, until it doesn't. I'll post good pics of this beast when it is apart again and on my table.

NMJimCRV

So, OneBadTurbo, riddle me this Batman:

According to the RM, Neutral is the click, which is dead center on the switch (see the V notch in the picture). The transmission is in Neutral, and the switch fits back over that stub perfectly. So, both agree on N. But the RM states N should give continuity on 1, 3, an 10. Park gives continuity on 1, 3 and 8. When this thing is what it supposedly N, it gives P continuity. When you crank the switch all the way to one side you get N continuity. No other gear gives any continuity at all.



The copper contacts move freely and appear to be making contact. The race track of copper lines is a solid molded plastic piece that I cannot access to check for loose connections Same with the wire going in - it is not designed to be serviced so I risk really fubaring it up trying to open up that rubber boot that goes into the black plastic.

No one seems to agree on the name of this part, the RM calling it "gear position switch", various Honda dealer part stores calling it "position sensor assembly" (which is odd, as it is not a sensor), and other sites calling it the more common "neutral safety switch". RockAuto adds "Range Sensor" to NSW. And these run around $125 - $256, if you can find a place that sells them. Ridiculous considering from all appearances all it is is a circuit.

I put it all back together and for now it is firing up, but it was loosing the circuit at times forcing me to wiggle the wire harness. So I am thinking:

In the interim I will rig a rocker switch, like an old fashioned kill switch, until I decide to buy a replacement (going to check the junk yard Friday to see if the 3 CRVs there have one of these). From what I can tell, pin 1, 3 and 8 are the key wires. As long as they close the circuit the ignition system should be able to fire. So if I splice into those wires on the engine side of the harness, join them at the rocker switch, once pressed it should close the loop allowing the vehicle to start. Once started it should be fine to release the switch, thus opening the circuit again. I'll test that.

I can then mount that switch near the ignition cylinder, and simply unplug the tranny side of the switch/sensor, relying on my rocker switch. We'll see!

OneBadTurboCRV

Damn, I would have bet all my assets on the starter because of the video you posted it sounds like the engine isn't even turning over haha... oh well.

At least you figured out the cause, well sorta. That is very funky about the continuity unless you are looking at the diagram wrong. It says to look from the wire side for the numbers to work. If you swap 8 and 10 then it would be correct. I would agree that it sounds like you have a bad solder contact. It definitely makes you want to rip it apart in the name of Science!!! Thanks for the update.

The rocker switch should indeed get you by, but could cause erratic shifting depending on where the ECU ties in for gear selection input.

NMJimCRV

EDIT: (just deleted my response below as now it may be gonzo) Huh, maybe you are right about the wrong view. I looked at it from the female side (I had the switch off and on my table in the house), not the wire side, so yeah, that does make sense then. Why in holy hell would they not simply give you a pin layout from the damn switch perspective instead of the harness you are NOT freaking testing is beyond me. Damnit!! Now I need to test that thing again, as if I was on 3 and not 1, then there would be no other continuity than P and N. Sheesh. Oh, and it did not help that they opted to connect that harness up to some evil genius clip that I could not get undone for nothing. It wound up breaking apart a section of the switch side connector, which while not exposing any wires it did break off some tabs that help orient the thing to the drawing. So trying to make sure up was up was challenging. My harness did not appear to have three little stub outs.
__

NMJimCRV

So her car intermittently won't start, so she shakes the cable and it works. The $125 to get the new one is forthcoming, but thinking of really trying this rocker switch idea.

Since the plan is to replace the switch, I can cut into the switch side wiring and re-route wires 3 and 8 into the rocker switch. For wire 1 I can try, as a start, to tap it and leave it intact since it senses all gears. The hope there is that wire 1 is not the "bad" wire in the harness.

With 3 and 8 re-routed, the car should start when holding in the rocker switch and cranking the key as that circuit will be closed. The system will see that either P or N is engaged so it will fire up. I can test all this by removing the sensor from the tranny and only wiring up 3 and 8 and see if the thing will start. If so I don't need to worry about wire 1 at all. If it doesn't then I can tap 1 and see if routing that into the switch as well makes it go.

If that works I can hold off on the switch for awhile, as dropping the $125 (if I can get it from the source) for this dumb part is maddening. She still needs a new steering gear box and I would prefer to put in a new driver side cv axle.

tony_2018

I have no idea how you could've hit that...............I'm trying to imagine you banging the lower ball joint, but the way the swing goes it should hit that sucker........unless it was already going. I mean you did say she was hitting some concrete blocks or some ****.

NMJimCRV

Just about positive I never hit the cable or the switch itself, which is protected by a shield anyway, as I was on the other side of the wheel banging away. Has to be vibrations, and it was on the verge of going out anyway. But, it makes for an interesting thing to think about. Had I known this, and had I disconnected the switch before banging away it probably would be fine right now. Or maybe not. I am hoping this weekend to run my starter switch solution on it to see if we can avoid buying that switch for awhile. Need to get other things first.

NMJimCRV

Well, that little damn switch must be doing something other than simple continuity. I cut into the switch side of the plug and bridged #3 and #8 wire, which along with #1 tells the system it is in park. No joy. Joined them and ran them to a momentary switch - no joy. If I connect them back to the engine side of the plug it works (well, off and on as usual). Really thought that switch only closed a circuit. I put my volt meter to the wires, and on DC volts you get -0.001 when the engine is not cranked, and rolling values when the engine is on, just like you get for simple continuity, so ???

No more time to play with it so I soldered the wires back together as normal and it is back to the 'starts sometimes, doesn't sometimes' unless you wiggle the wire bulk. SO looks like I have to order this expensive part, damnit.

NMJimCRV

Well, it's been awhile. Yesterday I replaced the NSS on the CRV. Right before installing the car would not crank again, and after some wiggling the wire for the NSS it finally did (as usual). Put the "new" NSS in (got it from eBay), and it fired right up a few times no problem. And then this afternoon - same thing. My daughter wiggled the wire some and it cranked again.

Clearly there is some issue with the wiring, somewhere in the circuit. I find it odd, as I tended to get it to crank over by wiggling the wire right at the switch (with the wire bolted to the block as typical). At times my daughter would get it to work by moving the wire around at the connection point to the bundle going to the system. So I am left thinking it must be a loose wire(s) somewhere in that main trunk going back to the ignition circuit.

That sucks, as it means I will have to tear apart the wire bundles that snake through/under the engine, and try to chase this out. Anyone every have this happen before?

OneBadTurboCRV

No, but I can forewarn you that the CR-V engine sub-harness is a major PITA to deal with. No easy way to disconnect it from the chassis like on '88 - '00 Civics...

NMJimCRV

I am hoping to be able to map out, in a way I can actually relate it to the parts, the system here. It is dead dead, same exact symptoms as before but no amount of wire wiggle is making it work. Was towed from Abq to my house yesterday, so dead on my curb. Everything electrical working, just no attempt at start. I will jump the starter here in a bit, but as before there is no starter engagement at all.

If I were to create a new wire bundle connecting all necessary components, how massively hard would that be? A simple layout that will be missing things is:

Battery - Engine fuse/relay box - Starter - NSS - ?? - ??

I pulled the 40A fuse for IGN and it seems fine - without it no juice at all is moving in the car, putting it back in everything works as norm except starting.

EDIT:

Page 4-4 of the FSM gives me the layout for starting. So, I will trace that out. Maybe starter cut relay is shot. Or ECM/PCM or Ign control module. I'll yank the GD starter out and ave it bench tested.

Anyone ever try to bypass the starter cut relay altogether (which would bypass the AT gear position (NSS) as well)? I have no idea what that would accomplish.

OneBadTurboCRV

I haven't exactly done that, but I do have a remote start on my manual trans (I know, I know ) and it works just fine. This is a rather peculiar problem though; I have never heard or this type of issue. Makes me wonder if someone before was hacking around in there.

I skimmed back over the thread and didn't see if you pulled the starter and tested it before or not. Did you pull it before?

NMJimCRV

I have never pulled the starter to bench test it, but tonight I connected a switch (solenoid to battery) and the starter cranks the engine over just fine. The FSM indicates two fuses, both of which look fine. I visually inspected the wires I could get to and see, and they seem to be OK. I am pretty sure the issue is not the battery, not the starter, and probably not the gear position switch (especially since I have now put in another used one and same issue).

To me the main things are:

1. The circuit appears to be open, as there is no apparent load being taken off the battery in the attempt to start. No lights dim, and you get absolutely no clicking or clunking. Nothing at all.
2. It was coming back to life by wiggling the wire, either at the gear position switch on the tranny or at the harness that connects that to the main wire bus.

If it comes back to life wiggling it, it is screaming to me I have a bad wire/connector somewhere in the path, close enough to where I am wiggling it to cause the bad connection point to connect. Now, no amount of wiggling works, so makes me wonder if a wire is broke. God only knows whatever prior owners did.

Now I could be way off and totally missing what it could be as I am so focused on these variables. ??

Any idea where the starter cut relay is located?




Going by this diagram in the FSM, I should be able to bypass the gear position switch (GPS) by routing the gray or green wire (I am guessing that change point is the wire connector I keep wiggling) direct to ground. That would isolate out the GPS and remove it from the equation. Or, I could tap into the blk/wht wire before the starter cut relay, split it to ground and jump direct to the blk/red wire to bypass the relay, but I am not clear what the relay function is. If I bypassed that would it work at all, or is the relay crucial?

The ICM could be whack, but looking at the FSM I was thinking that component is more about timing the plugs than killing the ignition circuit, but ??

I could even try a hotwire method and bypass the ignition switch I guess (wht/blk jumped to blk/wht), isolating the ignition switch.

Tomorrow I will head to Honda and get a part number and price for the wire harness that is all this ignition system. If I can figure out how to lay it in temp style, connect it all up, that would isolate out any possible wire breaks. I'll also get a part num/price for the starter cut relay.

This is making me insane

UPDATE:

Page 23-9 has the location of the starter cut relay. OK!

NEW UPDATE:

CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION!!

Another thing to think about is that when wiggling the wire, the key is also being cycled on and off. Interesting that when I Google "starter cut relay 1997 crv" I get a lot of hits about this same kind of problem, and a possible recall re: relays. So, maybe the starter cut relay. Hmmmmmmmmm.

OneBadTurboCRV

Boy oh boy... the things your learn. I had never heard of the starter cut relay let alone any TSBs (which I'd like to think I am up on them) but damn. I would definitely chase that relay first. It truly sucks that this whole time wiring was suspect being that you wiggled it and it worked. I didn't realize you were cycling the key as well a bunch while wiggling or I must have missed that part. Sorry I didn't go in that direction. I have had almost the entire inside torn apart as well as the entire outside of my CRV at different points for various reasons... can't know it all I guess haha!

According to here it is #16

http://www.hondasuv.com/members/show...re-in-KY/page2

As stated on on HSUV at Majestic there is 3 numbers with a couple different prices...

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...IT+%28CABIN%29

I would assume it is one of the $17 ones and from the picture it appears to have different pin locations. Hope that helps some.

NMJimCRV

Well, fairly certain it is NOT the relay. I did find it. The horn and starter relay are next to each other in a bracket you get to by removing the kick panel. The position of them seems backward in the text - you go by the color of the wiring. The blue wires are for the horn. Anyway, they are the same relay. The horn works, I pull its relay, the horn stops working. I swap it into the starter relay slot, still no start. Putting the starter relay in for the horn, the horn works. I get the right amount of resistance on the relay, so guessing it is OK. Another interesting (maybe) thing is, the symptoms are exactly the same if the relay is out. So, if my problem was after the relay in the circuit, I wonder if I would see the same problem? If the problem is before the relay, then it being present or absent may have no impact.

****.

Some time back I swapped out the ignition cylinder, so I guess I will tear that apart again and see if the electrical contacts on the back end of that are fried. That is in the path of the starter system.

So far all fuses and relays appear to be OK. Damnit.

Oh and yes, that assumption about the part seems correct, based on the location and all.

OneBadTurboCRV

I can tell you from my experience with '88 - '91 Civics and earlier Accords that they do tend to burn up the solder connections on the ignition switch. I had a '89 Civic Si in particular that burned up 3 of them in a year. I thought it was an isolated incident until two different '91 Civics I had did the same thing. I personally haven't dealt with or seen it on '96 - '00 Civics or first gen CRVs.

I really wish you were closer because I would try and help you out. I hate when I can't figure something out with cars, but when they are in my possession I have never failed yet haha! Keep at it, you'll figure it out.