94eg!

iTrader: (2)

I have a problem with my stock 89 CRX Si. I was trying to break loose my crank pully, but the screwdriver kept slipping on the flywheel teeth. I had the cam gear off, so the valves were all staying put while the crank was turning.

Well I realized that the cam was about 50-80 degress past TDC. I had spun the crank over several times by hand before I realized it. I had noticed the crank got hard to trun a couple times while turning, but I thought it was just compression. Well it turns out I was pushing the pistons against the valves.

My question: Is it possible to bend or damage my valves by hand turning the crank? I really don't know how delicate these parts are.

CURSE YOU CRANK PULLY!!!

ProjectDarkBlack

I guess it would be possible, I doubt that it actually happened. I had a similar issue and I had similar concerns (I torqued the head down while the block was at TDC and the head was in a random spot). It ended up starting perfect and passing smog that week. I wouldn't worry too much in your situation, just make sure its timed in, torqued down, and everything is hooked up

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Well that's some relief. I can't put the thing back together until I get a new cam seal, so I'm just gonna be sweatin it until then. Thanks for your input & experience...

Any other opinions or experiences are welcome (of course)...

statik121

I did this on a 528e and thought I was at tdc when in fact I was 180 Degrees out when installing the timing belt. I remember it getting hard to turn and thought it was compression but realized I had the plugs out. Figured out he problem, put it back together and it fired up just fine. I was lucky but remeber, these are interferance engines. It is totally possibly you bend a valve so don't rule it out. An easy way to check if you have the head off is to lap the valves. Use marking compound and check the pattern on the face of the valve to the valveseat. If its uneven you have a bent valve. Actually an easier way to check is to set the head upside down and level and pour gas into each chamber and see if it holds (make sure cam is off and all valves fully seated). If any drain out, you probably have a bent valve. Check for marks on top of the piston where a valve may have made contact and check those valves.

mahatma

None of us really know but I'd bet my left nut you'll be ok

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Well, I'm comin to collect if it's not...

I'll know tomorrow after I the stealership gets my seals in. Wish me luck...

PS: Thanks again for all your guys advice...

CRX7

It's a non-interference engine, the valves won't touch the pistons in stock configuration. This is why you clay a motor when you build it to check valve to piston clearance.

statik121

Here is a list of known interference engines. I'm not sure, you might want to check the list for oyur engine. What does a noobie know anyways right?


Interference Engines

The AERA Technical Committee would like to offer the following information on engines that present the possibility of interference between pistons and valves. The interference or contact may bend valve(s) when timing between the camshaft and crankshaft is interrupted. This is generally the result of a timing belt or chain breaking or slipping.

The following list are engines that AERA is currently aware of that have exhibited interference. There may be other engines that are not listed below that have the possibility of piston to valve contact. If the engine you are working on is not listed, do not assume that it is a freewheeling design. It is suggested to add to this listing as additional information is obtained.

ACURA
1986-89 1.6L Integra
1991-95 1.7L Integra
1990-95 1.8L Integra
1986-89 2.5L Legend
1992-94 2.7L Vigor
1990 2.7L Legend
1991-95 3.0L NSX
1991-95 3.2L Legend
FIAT
1974-79 1.3L 128 Series
1979-82 135L Stranda
1974-78 1.6L 124 Series
1974-78 1.8L 124 Series
1974-78 1.8L 131 Series, Brava
1979-82 2.0L Brava, Spider
HONDA
1986-87 1.0L Prelude
1973-78 1.2L All
1973-78 1.3L All
1980-84 1.3L All
1973-78 1.5L All
1985-89 1.5L Civic
1988-95 1.5L Civic,CRX
1993-95 1.5L Civic Del Sol
1973-78 1.6L All
1980-82 1.6L All
1988-95 1.6L Civic, CRX
1984-87 1.8L Prelude, Accord
1979-83 1.8L All
1986-91 2.0L Prelude
1990-91 2.1L Prelude
1990-95 2.2L Prelude, Accord
1992-95 2.2L Prelude
1995 2.7L Accord
AUDI
1970-93 All Except 1970-77
1.9L & 1970-73 1.8L FORD
1981-85 1.6L Escort, EXP
1981-83 1.6L LN7, Lynx
1984-85 2.0L Escort, Tempo
1993-95 2.0L Probe
1986-88 2.0L Ranger
1984-92 2.2L Lynx, Topaz Diesel
1985 2.2L Ranger
1989-92 2.2L Probe
1986-88 2.3L Ranger
1986-87 2.3L Diesel Ranger
1991-98 4.6L Crown Victoria HYUNDAI
1984-95 1.5L Excel Scoupe
1995-98 1.5L Accent
1992-95 1.6L Elantra
1993-95 1.8L Elantra
1992-95 2.0L Sonata
1989-91 2.4L Sonata
1990-95 3.0L Sonata
BMW
1987-95 2.5l 3251 5251
1994-95 4.0L 7401 GM
1986-95 1.0L Geo Metro
1989-91 1.0L Firefly (CANADA)
1985-88 1.5L Sunburst (CANADA)
1985-89 1.5L Spectrum
1990-93 1.6L Prizm, Storm
1981-84 1.8L Diesel (CANADA)
1982-86 1.8L Buick Skyhawk
1990-98 1.9L Saturn
1987-88 2.0L Buick Skyhawk
1988-95 2.3L Quad Four
1985-87 3.0L Buick
1993-94 3.4L Corsica
1979-95 3.8L Buick PORSCHE
1976-83 2.0L 924
1976-89 2.5L 944 Series
1989 2.7L 944 Series
1989-91 3.0L 944 Series
1976 4.7L 928
1984 4.7L 928
1985-91 5.0L 928
1992-95 5.4L 928

DAIHATSU
1988-92 1.0L Charade
1988-92 1.3L Charade
1990-92 1.6L Rocky INFINITI
1990-92 3.0L M30
KIA
1995 2.0L Sportage ISUZU
1987-89 1.5L I-Mark
1990-93 1.6L Stylus Impulse
1987-89 2.0L Impulse
1981-87 2.2L Diesel Truck
1986-95 2.3L Truck Trooper
1988-95 2.6L Truck Rodeo Amigo
1991-96 Trooper Rodeo Amigo
MAZDA
1984-85 2.0L 626
1988-92 2.2L 626 MX6
1989-93 2.2L Pickup
1988-95 3.0L 929MPV
SUZUKI
1985-94 1.3L Samurai Sidekick
1989-94 1.3L Swift TOYOTA
1986-95 1.5L Tercel
1981-83 2.2L Pickup
1984-87 2.4L Pickup
1982-88 2.8L Celica Cressida
1987-94 3.0L 4-Runner
MITSUBISHI
1985-95 1.5L Mirage Precise
1990-92 1.6L Mirage
1989-95 2.0L Galant Eclipse
1983-86 2.3L Diesel Pickup
1994-95 2.4L Galant NISSAN
1982 1.5L Centra
1983-88 1.6L Sentra Pulsar
1987-89 1.8L Pulsar
1982-89 2.0L Stanza 300ZX
1984-95 3.0L Maxima 300ZX Pathfinder VOLKSWAGEN
1976-91 All Except 1.9 2.1L Engine
1990-92 1.6L Golf(CANADA)Jetta
1990-95 2.0L GTI Jetta GLI Passat

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's a non-interference engine, the valves won't touch the pistons in stock configuration. This is why you clay a motor when you build it to check valve to piston clearance.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It is an interference engine, and that is not the reason why you clay-check a motor. How would clay-checking the engine work if you cannot spin the motor over because of piston valve contact.

Your suposed to clay-check the motor to see the minimum valve to piston clearance during normal rotation (with the timing belt on). This way you can tell if your cam leaves enough of a margin-of-error for slight valve float or rod stretch. The valves are never fully extended while the piston is at TDC...

CRX7

I was wrong. So why do you clay a motor?

fourthgenhatchB17

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by statik121@hotmail.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Actually an easier way to check is to set the head upside down and level and pour gas into each chamber and see if it holds (make sure cam is off and all valves fully seated). If any drain out, you probably have a bent valve. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats not an accurate way of checking. I just went through this with a type R motor that had ALL its exhaust valves bent. Every chamber held fluid .

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So why do you clay a motor?</TD></TR></TABLE>

To see how much piston to valve clearance you have when dealing with high compression pistons and or high lift cams or even a milled head/deck.

To the OP: Hopefully your valves are OK. It can be fairly easy to bend valves. Only sure way is to fire it up, see how it runs, and do a compression check to confirm.

statik121

How long did you wait? 5 maybe 6 minutes? I recommend letting it sit overnight. I probably should have posted that in the first message (my bad). As far as being accurate, its common practice to fluid check a head for bent valves. See it done in my shop all the time done by veteren techs. Lapping valves is a good, easy and accurate method. If you want to get real accurate, whip out your handy dandy dial indicator with a holding fixture and check each valve (assuming you know how to use a dial indicator of course). Fuckit.... Take it to a machine shop and shell out the $50 to get it look at if your that worried.

fourthgenhatchB17

The valves have to be significantly bent to leak fluid. I mean on cylinder 1 and 4 i still got 220 psi and cyl. 2 and 3 were much lower but still held fluid. I didnt wait overnight...i just didnt have the time. So in conclusion, the fluid trick might not reveal the slightest of bends.

Anyways, good luck to the OP . I wanna know the outcome.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Well I got the car back together this evening, and she fired up just fine. I drove it carefully and didn't notice any ill effects. After getting some ***** up, I gave it some gas to see how she felt. I couldn't tell any difference in performance since the incident. I did notice that the valve-train was making a bit more noise than before. I'm gonna have to do a compression check and valve lash adjustment tomorrow.

I don't know if it makes any noise difference, but I am currently running the car without the upper timing cover (perhaps it makes more noise that way). My plan is to modify the timing covers lip so I can pop it into place without taking off the valve cover. I'm not really comfortable reusing valve cover gaskets (I'm trying to reduce the leakage), and I just installed a new one with plug seals.

This project was just supposed to be a cam-seal replacement that I was trying to turn into a timing belt/water pump replacement. I'm not quite ready to take a cylinder head off yet, so I can't take it in to have it checked out...

Thanks again for everybody's help. I'll keep you up to date...

Contender25

Pfft i touched them lots of times whenever i done timing belt replacements and water pump replacements on all kinds of honda motors. Everytime i did it, it was harder because they bumped each other but then they clear once you turn it over again anyways, so yes they touch but then they clear ifyou keep going anyways.

Contender25

Sorrys that was confusing, lol hope i helped.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

I'm so pissed right now. The brand new valve cover gasket I installed has a ******* tear in it. I went to do a compression test & swap plugs, so I popped open my hood to find oil sprayed all over my intake manifold & everything else back there. It was running down onto the exhaust & driveway. WTF? Aparantly I only lost about .5 quarts of oil, but it's still retarded. I hope honda will replace it because don't want to spend another $10 on something so stupid...

On the flip side, the cam seal I installed was dry as a bone & the motor is runing nice & smooth. Very happy with that...

Contender25

Thats good, it will be alright, won't be bad at all so don't worry.

statik121

Actually, as a tech or a parts customer, you are responsible for inspecting parts to ensure you got the right one and it's not damaged. If it's been installed, they will probably not accept it as a return. It's the same policy as most parts stores.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

CRX7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fourthgenhatchB17 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
To see how much piston to valve clearance you have when dealing with high compression pistons and or high lift cams or even a milled head/deck.
.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Right, meaning if the engine isn't running there isn't any overlap since there is clearance. You only have to worry about valves hitting the pistons if it is running. Which is why your need stronger valve springs to avoid valve float so they won't hit the piston.

Glad there wasn't a problem.

94eg!

iTrader: (2)

Well I got in there & did a valve lash adjustment and replaced the spark plugs. A compression test showed that I still have good sealing (for 190k miles):

Engine warmed up, injectors disconnected, wide open throttle, 250 rpm (starter motor):

#1 = 165psi
#2 = 155psi
#3 = 163psi
#4 = 165psi

Nominal = 185psi
Minimum = 135psi
Max variance = 28psi

As for my gasket problem, Honda replaced it without any trouble. I simply told him what happened, and asked if there was any way he could help me out. Pretty cool of them since I know they don't have to do that...

My valve-train is quite a bit noiser after the valve lash adjustment. I'm kinda surprised. I reduced rocker arm clearance on almost every valve (except one), so I would think it would make less noise (.008" intake & .010" exhaust) I don't quite know if thats normal. Any insight would be welcome...

Tyson

cool. good to hear no serious damage with the valves.