TAG

Man, I'm STUMPED
I'm hoping one of you gurus can figure this one out

I put my new ZC into my CRX last night (it's a 1992 OBD1 DOHC ZC from HMotorsOnline) and everything was going smoothly when I noticed a huge oil leak under the block after I fired her up.

I traced the oil leak to the area directly behind the filter (almost as if the o-ring is not sealing or something?). The leak is like a river! You start up the car and within 30 seconds you have literally 1/2 quart on the ground.

I had someone sit underneath the engine watching the back of the block while I started up the engine, and he could see the oil shoot out exactly from the seal between the oil filter and the back of the block. (like as if the o-ring is not holding or something)

What the heck is going on?

Here are the things I've already tried:
- Tried 2 new filters (I am using Honda filters, blue cap, PN# 15400-PCX-004)
- Made sure filter was hand tight
- Tried tightening filter VERY tight (using a filter wrench) on round #2
- Checked to make sure there wasn't a leftover o-ring from an old filter still stuck on the block.
- Applied thin film of oil to o-ring before installing new filter
- Checked the oil pressure sensor is not leaking (I also replaced it with a spare sensor, just to be 100% sure)
- oil filter threads are not cross-threaded when I put it on

Note: The OBD1 ZC doesn't have the oil cooler like the OBD0 ZCs have.
So the oil filter is mating directly to the block.

The only idea I came up with so far is:
Maybe there is a clogged valve somewhere (oil breather chamber maybe?) that is causing the oil pressure to go really high and the o-ring on the oil filter just happens to be the place where it leaks out?


Thanks for any ideas.
My CRX is *this* close to being back on the road after 6 months on stands


Modified by TAG at 10:59 PM 5/15/2005


Modified by TAG at 11:15 PM 5/15/2005

gnar kill

I am almost sure that there is a left over o-ring in there.....that is the only reason why that much oil would come out that quick that I can think of....

TAG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gnar kill &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am almost sure that there is a left over o-ring in there.....that is the only reason why that much oil would come out that quick that I can think of....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nope. See my list of things above, that I've already checked
- Checked to make sure there wasn't a leftover o-ring from an old filter still stuck on the block.

Here's a pic. You can see there is no o-ring left over.

Rywire

There is NO gasket on there other than the factory one(no double gaskets). The leak is BAD, any suggestions? Its quite weird if you ask me.
Ryan


EDIT: is there anything missing in that pic? I couldnt remember, I dont pay much attention when I change my filter I guess, bump for Ted.

93formula

hmmm i was gonna suggest to tighten the filter. the same thing happened to me twice. first time the old o ring got stuck to the block then the immediate second time i put the filter on the filter didnt go on all the way, it tighten up. so i thought it was on and fired it up and boom more oil all ove the place. so after it tighten up the first time i continued to tighten and lo and behold it got loose then tightend up again. this does it every time i change my oil, theres a spot on the thread that gives it the feeling that it is tight all the way then it gives way to be tightend further.

i know you stated you used a filter wrench, but try to feel using your fingers to check if it is indeed mated up to the block.

also if your pressure was indeed high, the oil would come up your dipstick, or try opening up your oil cap, it would gush out of there rather then the filter.

and lastly you sure you go the right filter, LOL


good luck.

jisu009

I'll be honest....this is a strange one. Your could be right about the pressure buildup....

I mean, it looks fine in the pic.

Is it warped somehow?

Rywire

Hmm, Ted a fuel press gauge might not be a bad idea(to check it to make sure your not real high!).

4dohs4mohoes

this Sounds like a wierd prob. But Please make sure you are using the correct filter. I know a penzoil filter # is PZ33. Try that. If not let us know what is up.

TAG

Definitely the right filter. Same ones I've used since 1998 on my CRX (I bought 10 of them at the time)

I'll go check with my fingers to make sure the filter is flush with the block mating surface..maybe it's warped or something. Sure hope not.

Ryan, good idea on the pressure gauge. I'll pick one up at lunch. Thx

CloudPump

It would seem to me that your oil filter spindle is either stripped or not fully (properly) into the block. I'd look into a new oil filter spindle.

-Geoff

TAG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CloudPump &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It would seem to me that your oil filter spindle is either stripped or not fully (properly) into the block. I'd look into a new oil filter spindle.

-Geoff</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks Geoff
How do I go about getting a new spindle? Is this something I can get through Honda?
Or do I have to take the block to a machine shop to have the old one machined off and a new one welded on or something.

To my inexperienced eyes, it appears the spindle is part of the block itself?

Thx

Servo

What year was your CRX that you bought those filters for? We only use PCX filters for older Hondas. Anything OBD1 or newer gets a PLM.

TAG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Servo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What year was your CRX that you bought those filters for? We only use PCX filters for older Hondas. Anything OBD1 or newer gets a PLM.</TD></TR></TABLE>

My CRX is a 1990 Si
The engine is the 1992 DOHC ZC (only year that the ZC came as an OBD1 engine)

These filters are the same ones I have used on my CRX since around 1999, IIRC
They are the larger diameter ones that you used to get from Honda until like 2002, when they switched almost all honda filters to the new, smaller sized one.
But both sized filters have the same diameter o-ring, etc. I like the larger filter since I had a turbo running on the engine.
I've been using these on my ZC (obd0 '89) engine in the same car (90 CRX Si) since 1998 with no problems


But if you think I should try a different Honda filter (ie the new tiny one they sell) then I will try it. Let me know

TAG

UPDATE

Tonight I found some time to troubleshoot the problem some more.

I picked up a brand new filter from my Honda dealer Tuesday (the small kind that they standardize on now)

I removed the old filter, and took a bunch of pics using macro mode on my camera.
I then cleaned the surfaces, lubed up the new filter and installed it 3/4 turn past hand-tight. Added oil and fired her up.
Nope, still leaking oil.

So then I go upstairs and download the images off my camera.
And one of them shows a nice hairline fissure:




So, is something like this fixable by a good machine shop?
--Or am I screwed?
I can't tell yet how deep the fissure is. But I plan to look at it more tomorrow and take more pics from the "side" if possible. I'm too frustrated right now...

Thanks

Rywire

Oh man Ted, I cant believe that!!

I would think its fixable, but its just in a real bad spot to reach!
I know this is super ghetto, but does anyone agree jd weld may hold up? I mean its just a crack, and there isnt TOO much pressure on it. Hmmm, I want other opinions on this.
Ryan

93formula

how the hell does that happen??????

Rywire

Its a hmo (hmotors) special

JOEY F.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by droppedcrxsi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its a hmo (hmotors) special </TD></TR></TABLE>

and i always thought hmotors was good...

Hmmm....do you think some honda bond or gasket maker applied to that area after the filter is screwed on will work? I would do that or the JB weld route, since the back area of the motor is one hell of a place to repair. (especially when its IN a car.)

NikoZai

If its got a crack like that already, i say don't risk it being cracked anywhere else....
Send it back, get a new one.. sucks but it's the only way to go. especially since you're going turbo, it'll put pressure on other weak points and something bad will happen. Make sure they know, you haven't run it with turbo yet lol it's not your fault.

fourthgenhatchB17

Thats the first time ive ever seen this. Send the motor back, and ask them for some kind of reimbursement of partial payment or ask them to throw something extra in for your labor and ****. Its only fair. Good luck either way.

TAG

Thanks for all the replies guys. I woke up this morning, feeling great.
Then I suddenly remembered my engine and my smile went away

I'm going to call Steve at HMO this morning.
I'm more depressed than anything....because I was *THIS* close to being on the road again, plus this was my first swap I had done mostly by myself (Thanks again for all your help Ry)
Well, I guess I just gotta dig deep and turn it up a notch in order to get her healthy again. Hmm, maybe I should just bite the bullet and swap in a B18C1. The ZC isn't REF-able and I was always worried about getting my hood popped out here in Ca with the zc plus turbo.

Anyways...thanks guys. I'll post updates later today

TAG

Update:

I spoke with Steve at HMotorsOnline this morning, and.....
He has agreed to replace my motor!!

WOW -- I can't believe the incredible amount of professionalism and courtesy he extended me. HMotorsOnline

To tell you the truth, I wasn't expecting much because I purchased this motor over 7 months ago so it's pretty much past their warranty period.
Some background: my engine swap was just a part-time hobby for me since my crx isn't my daily driver...so I just worked a little here and there when I had time. Plus it was my first swap I've done by myself so I really wanted to take my time, learn every little detail/component, replace every possible seal, and torque everything down perfectly. So that's why it took me so long

Anyways, he said something about me made him trust me and go beyond their normal policy and take care of me as a customer. He said I'll have to pay for return shipping, but that's acceptable to me.

Man, this sure has made my day.

I'll post updates in the next few days. Now I need to go pull that old *%* motor out asap.




Modified by TAG at 11:11 AM 5/19/2005

Jonathan_ED3

Yes, Steve is a very good guy.

He's gone way beyond his ethical duties in the past to help me out.

to HMO.

DohcVtecCrx

HMO is the only place to get motors from IMO. Never seen them not replace something that was bad. You have to remember they get these in a big metal train car bin that has been shipped over from jdm land. Hmo takes time to clean them up, check and replace sensors ect ect. I have not seen one swap from anyplace that has the oil filter off, so it isn't wierd that they never checked that.

Sorta off topic, but it has been a really long time since I seen a zc in person, but I always thought they had oil coolers like the b16a did. Am I just crazy or what?

TAG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DohcVtecCrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">HMO is the only place to get motors from IMO. Never seen them not replace something that was bad. You have to remember they get these in a big metal train car bin that has been shipped over from jdm land. Hmo takes time to clean them up, check and replace sensors ect ect. I have not seen one swap from anyplace that has the oil filter off, so it isn't wierd that they never checked that.
Sorta off topic, but it has been a really long time since I seen a zc in person, but I always thought they had oil coolers like the b16a did. Am I just crazy or what?</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's great to hear, and of course now that I'm experiencing their customer service firsthand, I've gotta say I'm very impressed.

Great point on the oil filter. It was indeed still attached when I got it delivered. Green HAMP sucker and all. That makes sense...thanks for pointing this out.

You're not crazy -- the vast majority of DOHC ZCs out here aer OBD0 models. Honda produced an OBD1 model DOHC ZC in 1992 (special edition for the Civics, not sure if it came on crxs though since that was delsol territory, so probably not crxes)
When I ordered my ZC, Steve said the OBD0 ZC's were on backorder (2 weeks) so I did some research on thezcr.com and it looked like getting the OBD1 ZC and swapping a few items to make it OBD0 seemed trivial.

On my "new" motor, I'm going to see if HMO can give me the OBD0 model, just to save me time on the rebuild/reinstall