James89DX

Here is my conundrum. About 6 years ago I bought a fully rebuilt D15B2 from an eBay seller who had bought a ton of surplus stock from an engine rebuilder and swapped it into my '89 DX that I did a mild restore on at the same time. It's been about 6 years but only 30k miles on the engine during that time as I don't drive the car a whole bunch.

Now - from what I have gathered over the years, this rebuild is about what you would expect from a JIS Engines type rebuild - aka low quality gaskets. I had to replace the rear main seal on the engine after about 15k miles because it started leaking terribly. The valve cover/spark plug gaskets leaked too. Other than those issues I have had no problems at all with this rebuilt engine and it has been very reliable.

Fast forward to about two months ago - the car randomly got hot during a drive mid-day during the summer, not totally pegged into the red hot but noticeably hot. Pulled over and shut it down to find it was super low on coolant. Topped off coolant and continued to drive the car daily to work over the next couple of weeks as it was my only means of transportation but made sure to check the coolant level which needed topping off every few days.

Ever since the overheat episode, the car would stumble for about 30 seconds each morning at startup. Only a handful of times would I have white smoke from the car in the mornings. After about a week the car started to run rough when sitting at lights but would smooth out just fine when I started driving again. I figured a cylinder or two was getting flooded with coolant at idle at the long lights. Other than the morning startup and stop light stumbling, the car ran perfectly fine.

Immediately in my head I chalked all of these symptoms up to a very low quality head gasket that the builder surely used and I made plans to replace the head gasket just as soon as I could get my Nissan driving and inspected to drive it and park the Honda.

Well after a couple of weeks of driving in this condition I took the car the junkyard to get some parts for the Nissan. The Civic drove just fine there. Got my parts and leaving the junkyard the Civic wouldn't start - just a "kerr clunk". Tried to crank it one more time and had the definite impression that it was hydrolocked. This did NOT happen when driving and I did not force the cranks over so I'm 99.9% positive this did not cause any damage but I could absolutely feel the engine did not want to turn over.

So my brother and I pulled the car home and parked it for three weeks. Finally got around to working on it today and definitely have coolant mixture with the oil. Such a shame because look how clean the head is other than the obvious coolant mixture.



Pulled the IM off this is the first thing I see. Only the one cylinder closest to the crank pulley side had the coolant in it. Also some coolant drained straight out of the IM at this port too.



Look in a bit further and see this. Full of coolant. Again only the one cylinder closest to the crank pulley had the coolant in it.



Now - I expected to pull the head and find a very obvious head gasket failure. To my surprise, I pulled the head and couldn't find a single questionable area on the head gasket.

The head gasket was not brittle or broken or cracked anywhere, and came right off easy in one piece. I inspected the block and head as best I could and cannot find any obvious flaws in those either.









Now down to the real questions. What do you all suppose caused this? I'm a bit troubled that I don't find an obvious failure here. I was hoping to just check the head and block for straightness (don't anticipate any problems there since the car never truly overheated), replace the head gasket, head bolts, and intake manifold gasket and be on my way.

But now I'm scared of putting all this back together without finding a true cause of these issues. I'm also hoping to not have to waste the money sending the head or block to a machine shop for testing or any work. Any ideas/input/advice? Thanks in advance.

James89DX

Okay well after posting this thread I decided to take another look at the head gasket closely and cleaned up a bit. I do see a "break" at about 5 o'clock on the cylinder crush ring in this picture. This is the same cylinder that had all the coolant. Would this be enough to eat all that coolant? Where exactly does coolant pass through the head gasket?



Here's that same spot flipped over upside down. The spot in question is about 12:30-1:00 o'clock in this photo

spens 91 Ef

seems like a cheap rebuild and blown head gasket with overheating, you should have gone with a newer block, i had a d16y7 in my 4th gen running obd0 so much more reliable and i got a warranty with it

James89DX

This response was literally of no use whatsoever to my current situation. You re-stated the obvious and then suggested I time travel to 2007-2008 and make a different purchase. Lol.

91 b20 integra

i just built a d15 a few weeks ago. you should rotate the motor by hand watching the cylinder bore and see if anything got damaged. next you should check to see if the water pump still spins freely. finally, all those holes in the gasket should be for oil as the water mainly pools up around the cylinder sleeves. hope this helps

4drEF

Did you check the head and block mating surfaces for flatness?
I don't see anything glaring bad with your headgasket (doesn't mean there isn't, but I just don't see it in your pics), but the gasket won't seal properly if the surfaces aren't flat or if the bolts weren't torqued properly.

Dark_Teg

Its like 50-70 bux to have a head surfaced. I highly suggest you do this. Make sure you get the block surface perfectly clean. MLS gaskets are unforgiving with uneven surfaces. Use new head bolts and torque to the proper torque using the correct sequence and you will be good.

James89DX

I turned the engine over by hand to get it to TDC after removing the spark plugs and IM and it turns over very smoothly. Should I do the same with the head off and watch to make sure all the pistons come up to full height?

Yes I did that last night with a large straight edge and flashlight in the dark checking for any light seepage. Head and block are flat as can be. I'm also now nearly certain that crack at 5 o'clock is my main issue. I have been talking with buddies who had head gasket failures with smaller defects than what's pictured in my pictures.

See my above post. I don't feel like sending it out to a machine shop and am now certain both surfaces are flat with no warpage so I'm prepping the surfaces myself with a long block. I do have new head bolts and will be torquing them to spec of course.







Assuming all this works out, and I'm betting it will, I'll be back up and running for under $60 total spent.

Dark_Teg

Your method looks solid. I have used a long block myself to prep surfaces in the past.

91 b20 integra

look for damage in the cylinder bore. cracked sleeves and such

york

Maybe someone already mentioned this - Did you also read Service Bulletin 97-047 about the head gasket? I know I had a cylinder head rebuilt and used a stock head gasket, but it leaked. Then, my brother told me about a newer gasket with newer bolting instructions.

James89DX

Wow great info I had no idea. I will definitely check that out.

And I can't help but notice you've been here 10 years and it appears that was your first post?

James89DX

Well here is that TSB. It calls for specific head bolts - P/N 9005-PM3-004 as well as a specific different tightening sequence, and actually says DO NOT follow the service manual tightening procedure.

It looks like the special head gasket P/N 12251-P01-004 is still available but the special head bolts are NOT available.

If you try to order the revised head bolt, Honda is superseding the TSB specific 9005-PM3-004 head studs back to the original 9005-PM3-003 head studs, which ironically the TSB says not to use. That's quite frustrating.

James89DX

So I couldn't find the TSB listed head bolts anywhere, but did find a listing for them at Hondapartsnetwork.com (Honda of Lisle, Illinois). OEM Honda Part 90005-PM3-004 | Bolt-Washer (10 x 140) (Tokai TRW)

Before purchasing them online, I called them to make sure they're ACTUALLY available. Chris at the Lisle Honda parts department stated he runs all the web stuff for hondapartsnetwork.com and stated that Honda supersedes back to the 90005-PM3-003 bolts and also thought it was strange. He took my number and offered to contact Honda directly for me and have them check into it and also to see if there are any 90005-PM3-004's. He called me back about an hour later after checking with them and the official response from Honda is the 90005-PM3-003's will work fine and are specifically Honda approved for this TSB.

Perhaps Honda updated the 90005-PM3-003's since 1997? Either way that's my only option so I'll be going with that. I wish I'd known about this special head gasket previously because now I've got to wait for it to come in. Oh well, I'd rather wait a bit longer now than have to re-do the job over again.

24TEN

iTrader: (2)

I've actually got that revised gasket at home waiting to install also for similar reasons. Good info on the headbolt difference and I appreciate the fact that you took the initiative to find out more info about them and share with the rest of us.

James89DX

There's nothing more frustrating that having some issue, digging around online trying to find answers to your questions, stumbling upon an oooooold thread on some forum somewhere with a problem exactly like yours, only to find the thread just died with no follow-up from the OP. So I try not to let my threads die with no follow-up lol

york

Well, I've posted before. I've been out of the picture for a few years and had to reset my password yesterday. I wonder if that zeros my post counts? I tried to post a picture of the service bulletin, but I think newbies are not allowed? Glad you found it anyway.

I came here yesterday because I'm helping a friend swap a couple of Si motors and I saw your thread. I thought, "Hey, that's what happened to me a couple years ago." I hope it works for you - it did for me.

KevinEF7

Your silly if you dont spend the $60 to resurface the cylinder head. I live in the middle of knowwhere but know of a handful of local shops that would resurface my head same day. Your straight edge in the garage and a flashlight isnt a proper check.

Skip the sandpaper longblock idea next time aswell, you had good intention obviously stuffing the block with paper towel, but you were still pushing debris and metal shavings into the bores and into the rings of those 2 pistons you have set to TDC in the pics.

Permatex gasket remover and a plastic scraper work very well on composite gasket bits

As for head bolts, why not upgrade to ARP headstuds? A far superior fastener even if its overkill for the application, there also re-useable, unlike the one time use Honda bolts, and probably cost close to the same ..

4drEF

^^ Checking the head and block with a straight edge is a proper check.
The flashlight is probably overkill because there is an allowable amount of gap which is tested with a feeler gauge. No visible light would be an extremely flat surface.

James89DX

You may find it silly but I am absolutely not sending the head out to a machine shop. I feel it's unnecessary and a waste of money - even if it's "only" 60 bucks. The engine was not driven while overheated so given that there was never any real suspicion of significant warpage from the get-go. Beyond that, how is the complete blockage of light not an absolute indicator of flatness? I truly am not in the least bit worried about flatness but I do understand your point as many people feel just like you that a machine shop is a necessity no matter what.

I will be blowing the block and head out with compressed air and I suppose there will be some microscopic shavings left over in the head or block but I feel the amount would be fairly negligible.

This is a stock engine and I have no ricer illusions at all so to put anything in this car that is "performance" doesn't even occur to me - so I honestly hadn't even thought of ARP stuff. I got the special TSB head gasket and OEM head bolts for about $130 total (and honestly prior to the TSB post in this thread I was just going to use aftermarket stuff for half that total price).

It looks like the ARP stuff is about $115-130, so it's definitely not the same price as the OEM stuff.

I will of course update this thread with the final outcome so if I'm a failure you can say you told me so

KevinEF7

My assumption is that you are using your uncles neighbours drywall level as a straight edge which is not as near precise, please prove me wrong and show me that you are using a real machinist straight and I will shut up

ARP studs are $100 shipped and a y8 OEM mls gasket is $26 from Honda.

How is that not better as the studs are re-useable and the same price? Being as I think you might be in there again, might be a good idea

Blowing the head and block with compressed air isnt going to do anything, shavings stick to oil coated surfaces and dont just blow off

KevinEF7

A proper straight edge, yes. Sisters school ruler... no.

James89DX

I'm using a Starrett straight edge. It's not as fancy as the true machinist straight edge in your picture but it's also not $500 like the one in your picture probably is.

I couldn't find any ARP for $100 shipped, then again I didn't look that hard. I am also intent on using the TSB gasket which is more than double the gasket you mention.

At the very least your ARP and y8 gasket bits are moot because I've already ordered and paid for the TSB parts.

Of course I realize shavings stick to oil but to state that direct high pressure compressed air "isn't going to do anything" is a drastic overstatement.

york

Good luck with the install. I really hope it does the trick. In my case I had the cylinder head rebuilt, but did nothing to the engine block. Almost three years later and the engine is still going strong.

James89DX

Well, I'm officially stumped.

My parts came in yesterday so last night after work I put the car back together sans coolant. Head gasket install as well as everything else back together went textbook easy.

Here's the gasket going on:



Got up early this morning, filled it full of coolant, drained and re-filled with fresh oil.

Started it up and it took about 5-6 cranks but ultimately started up fine. I let it sit and idle for about 5 minutes. It idled perfectly for those few minutes but I noticed if I gave it any gas that it would stumble badly. I thought perhaps I had the timing belt off a tooth or two.

So I shut the car off and checked the timing belt. It looked lined up perfectly as far as I could tell but I re-did the timing belt just in case. Tried to start it back up and it just cranks and cranks and cranks and cranks.

Since then I've had the timing belt off and back on about 5 times and quadruple checked each time. Engine turns over completely and smoothly by hand with ratchet on the crank pulley. Horizontal lines on the cam gear are lined up with the head and crank pulley mark is lined up on the arrow. No matter what I do the car just cranks and cranks and cranks. It does not ever "catch" and try to fire up, just cranks. Here are pictures of my timing belt as it currently sits. Unless I'm missing something this is literally perfectly lined up?

Here's the crank side. The perspective is a bit off with the camera but the arrow and scribe mark on the crank match up perfectly in person:



Here's the cam gear. My car is the 1.5 so I'm lining it up based on the horizontal lines and not the 7 o'clock mark like on the 1.6 engines:



Direct perspective shots (firewall side):



Radiator side:



So, as you can see above the timing belt is spot-on. However, car still cranks and cranks and cranks.

So then I got out my compression tester and tested the compression. Every cylinder tests out perfectly between 165 and 170 PSI. Cylinders 1-3 are all exactly 165 and cylinder 4 is 170.

I also installed new spark plugs just for the heck of it. Still just cranks and cranks and cranks. I can hear the fuel pump priming when I turn the ignition to ON. I loosened the FPR a bit to check fuel at the rail and I definitely have fuel at the rail. I sprayed starter fluid into the TB as a sort of quick/ghetto way to rule out a fuel issue - no change.

Verified spark on each plug wire with a screwdriver and ground point. Still just cranks and cranks and cranks. Checked ECU fuse, checked grounds (and in fact added an extra ground just in case), still just cranks and cranks and cranks.

I've been fooling with this car all day and still can't get it to start up.

Any ideas?

*edit* also forgot to mention that I pulled the cap off of the distributor and verified that the rotor is pointed to cylinder #1 when the engine is at TDC.