ZCRX1988

I bought a swapped 91 DX CRX with a DOHC ZC engine a few months ago. I think I have a few issues going on, but I want to try to fix each one in reverse order from when they occurred. What I mean is, fix the most recent problem first, then the next most recent etc to make sure I fix anything I may have screwed up before-hand.

So heres the deal, originally the car ran/drove great. 39mpg in 70% highway driving. Well one day I got on it a little bit (it was raining) and broke traction in 2nd gear, I rode it out for a second and then stopped. I mainly was wanting to test how the tires/car did on wet. This wasn't the first time I'd gotten on it or anything. After this moment though, I started having idle issues. Surging idle when warm, like literally right about the time the coolant gauge got to operating temp, 3000rpms surges with near stall-outs.

I knew the headgasket needed repair, I was having some oil leak from between the head/block on the entire front half of the enigne. I checked a million things for the idle issue, cleaned the IACV, checked vacuum lines, looked for intake leaks etc, never figured it out. I assumed a HG could cause it because if oil is getting out, it's unlikely but possible air is coming in on the intake or compression strokes causing a vacuum issue. And I figured its a good way to get all new gaskets and vacuum lines.

Needless to say doing the work outside in my apartment parking lot, I realized I should have waited until spring because of the constant wind/rain/cold we've had in ky, it took me near 3 weeks to get it done.

Timing belt was a PITA, it kept wanting to jump a tooth but I finally got that issue resolved once a friend finally came to lend a second pair of hands. I'm 99.9% sure it's perfectly in time, when at TDC the exhaust pulley and intake pulley marks are just ever so slightly off (like 1/32'' off) at the most, so I assume this is NOT off 1 tooth as that is closer to like 1/3-1/2'' off. I just am assuming either my belt has a little stretch to it, or it's just an illusion. Even if it is 1 tooth off though it should run from what I've read?

So couple days ago I started it, it'd pop alot when the key was turned but just wouldn't start. I messed with the idle screw a bit and distributor timing. I don't own a timing light and was going to rent one once I got the bugs worked out, since having it in a ballpark area should still be alright..I mean it's very very close to the timing it was at before I removed the dizzy, the marks I drew with a sharpie wore off but I remember it was almost all the way advanced (rotated clockwise if facing the dizzy from the passenger side).

I switched the Map and purge canister lines, thinking I had them backwards. And removed my lower PCV line when I noticed the hose was umm.. well to best explain it, the rubber line had this insulative foam covering on it, and I didn't catch this when I had the IM off but the rubber/plastic line didn't go through the foam covering, the line was broken as it appeared and the foam covering was functioning AS the line going to the underside of the IM. So I plugged off the IM vaccum line to the valve to just eliminate issues there.

At this time, I only had a code 6 and iirc 9. One wire going to the exhaust cam sensor was broken, so I fixed that and the code 9 (was either 9 or 4) disappeared. Leaving code 6. I have no coolant in the engine yet, just a little residual in the block because I was going to flush it once I got it running (have to drive it to my friends about a block away, no garden hose here). I also think I'm seeing a broken wire right at the base of the coolant sensor plug under the cam position sensor. I'll fix that tomorrow probably but that shouldn't be the issue either because my old SOHC ZC CRX didn't even have that hooked up for like a month (bought it that way, didn't catch it right off)..

So I try to start it again now that the pcv line is plugged up and i switched those map and purge tank lines. Viola it runs.. Really badly... Now, I notice my tach isn't working..WTF? So it sounds like it's idling low but it's guesswork because suddenly my tach is KIA. I adjust the idle a little trying to get it to rev-up hire. It kinda sounds like it's not firing right. Not subaru boxer 3-cyl like, but sounds like I put a 292-degree set up cams in it or something, very stumbly. Kinda like how those really loud harleys idle. If I barely touch the gas it smooths out and sounds about like 1200rpms. If I let off it dies. If I blip the gas the rpms kinda sound like they dip then go up a hair then it dies. If I start it and walk away, give it 2-3 minutes. Sometimes 30 seconds, it'll just die. It smells kinda odd, Weed-whacker like, it's open header right now until I get it finished up so I know it'll stink but it smells too rich. This could be the code 6/no coolant/cold engine though messing with AFR's..

I rechecked my codes. Suddenly. Code 5, 6, 15. I assume the code 5 is from the MAP being switched with the purge line, so I am going to swap it back. Code 6 is the sensor, which I feel like I should just ignore for now. But code 15, looks like some sort of ignition signal? Could this be why my tach isn't reading? Would this be wiring or ignitor or what? Does this explain my current symptoms?

Extra Notes: Valves were adjusted per PGMFI's guide and in spec (most were only .001-.002 out of spec if any at all). Oh and when I first got it tore down, some clowntosses broke into my car. I figured this out when I saw my valve cover laying across the street in someones front yard... Anyways everything to my knowledge has been accounted for. But I have no way of knowing if they decided to like, take my dizzy and throw it at a wall or something. All the parts were in a plastic rubbermaid tub in the hatch (hidden) and nuts/bolts/sensors in labled bags. It was all dumped out in the back like it'd been looked through. Didn't notice anything stolen (not even the change in the little cubby by the steering wheel, or the walkie-talkies in my glove box. But just because I haven't noticed any problems, doesn't mean I can't rule out something like sand in my gas tank. Though it seems unlikely. Also I do believe, about 80% sure when I first tried firing it up last week my tach was reading, so I don't think someone cut my harness or anything. I think the tach is a newer issue.

I know this is really long, but I didn't want to leave anything out because it's very possibly I'm missing something easy or could forget to mention something important. Any help would be incredibly appreciated. I NEED to get this car running. My newer car/DD just got totalled (rear ended in rush hour traffic) Leaving me with just my CRX for now. The DD got paid off by insurance and honestly I DON"T want another car payment and I've only got about $200-300 to spare after rent to try to get the CRX running so I can't just go out and blindly buy a distributor, gauge cluster, plug wires, new engine etc just because the issue appears to come from one place.

Thanks a ton.

crvtectim

Cliff notes, dude!?

BigbamaBen

Lol yeah. This is like my English lit class... except no cliff notes. No offense buddy but nobody wants to read all that

~sp33~

What did you reference when checking that your cam gear was correctly positioned? The inside markings for the cam should be level with the head with the arrows facing up. If you've done it properly the arrows will also be pointing slightly toward each other. Don't try and line up the outside markings to the upper surface of the head!



Put your distributor in the middle of the adjustment until you get a timing light.

Check your spark plug leads are going to the correct cylinders and are on correctly at the distributor:



Be sure that your vacuum lines are going to the map sensor correctly, because if you get this wrong your car will have a lot of trouble running.

Stop messing with the idle adjustments too! If the car ran before you removed the head it's going to be hard to check if you've done everything correctly if you're messing up all the adjustments that had the car running in the first place in order to cover for something that has been done incorrectly.

Get this sorted and i guess you can troubleshoot further.

ZCRX1988

Sorry for the length...Not used to forums and I'm a bit of a speed reader myself :\

Sp33, My plug wires and cap are routed correctly. IIRC I originally put the dizzy on 180 off but corrected it by putting the engine at TDC cyl 1 and the rotor was in the vicinity of the contact for cyl 1. I also do have the dizzy pretty much centered in the slots now.

Last night I switched the MAP and purge vacuum back to the correct position. Cleared my codes. My tach still is not working for some reason and I only am getting code 6 at this time.

I tried firing it up, and it starts. Sometimes it'll pop but not fire up but usually by the 2nd or 3rd try it will start and idle. Since I have no tach I don't know my rpm but it sounds a little low (500-700 cold engine). But Here is what it is doing now:

-Low sounding cold idle
-Blip the gas pedal and the rpms will go up a little in response and then drop really low or stall
-I tried flooring it with it running and tried opening the throttle blade manually to make sure it wasn't throttle cable. Same thing happens, the engine sounds like it gets a bit of a load and the rpms rise a little. Sounds like 1200rpms or so MAX. And thats it. With it floored it just hovers around there. No pops or anything. Sound reminds me of when people load their torque converter on an automatic (but don't spin tires).

-When I let off the the gas after doing that, 3/4 of the time it will stall the other times it will REALLY low idle and barely catch itself.

I have a fuel pressure gauge I can hook up and check tomorrow and see what my pressure is when I gas it. Could this be a totally shot FPR, or injectors sticking open or something?

To me I want to believe its spark/fuel. Could possibly be ignitor/coil/dizzy related but not throwing a code (since I have no tach signal right now). OR a hugely over-rich or lean condition caused by stuck open/closed injectors?

I don't think it's vacuum. When I crack the throttle open I hear the "kr-woosh" type noise come from the throttle plate.. Also I don't know if this is an issue but if I take the vacuum line off the throttle-plate solenoid the idle goes up like 500 rpms and sounds a little smoother, but otherwise the car acts the same. IIRC if I did that before I did the headgasket the RPMS would continuously climb (checking vacuum line leaks).

And for the engine timing, set to TDC (whitish mark around 1-2 inches to the right of the 3 ignition timing marks on crank pulley), the cam gear marks are next to each other on the inside. If you took a ruler and put it under all four marks on both cam gears its pretty much a straight line in parallel with the the valve cover to head surface. Exhaust arrow points almost straight up and intake arrow slightly to the front of the car IIRC. I can check that in the daylight to be sure. It's not possible for the cams or cam gears to somehow be 180 off is it? There is only one notch on the cam and gear for the keeper so I don't believe so, but I guess I should ask since I did have to pull the cams.

So umm cliff notes:
Only a code 6 which seems non-issue right now
Giving it gas causes the engine to load but no rpm climb
Tach randomly not working
Will sometimes stall
Engine timing seems correct
Ignition timing might be off but shouldn't be causing these problems.

dets93teg

a good method to checking distributor timing is loosen the bolts a little bit so theres drag when u try to move it, start the car and ever so slightly and i stress that move the distributor each way and see if it runs better.

dets93teg

sorry for double posting but i missed a paragraph in your post lol.


-Low sounding cold idle
-Blip the gas pedal and the rpms will go up a little in response and then drop really low or stall
-I tried flooring it with it running and tried opening the throttle blade manually to make sure it wasn't throttle cable. Same thing happens, the engine sounds like it gets a bit of a load and the rpms rise a little. Sounds like 1200rpms or so MAX. And thats it. With it floored it just hovers around there. No pops or anything. Sound reminds me of when people load their torque converter on an automatic (but don't spin tires).
^ kinda sounds like you have sparkplug wires ran wrong.

crvtectim

I would address the engine coolant temp sensor to get rid of the CEL and get the car out of limp mode. I'd also bolt up the exhaust (if you haven't done so already) so you can hear better in the engine bay. A perfect running motor will pop its *** off with open header lol. I was starting to think maybe a clogged converter, but you don't have the exhaust connected. Hmm, why is the intake cam arrow not facing up like the exhaust cam is? Also, did you install new spark plugs?

ZCRX1988

I've triple checked that. 1-3-4-2, it doesn't really sound like it has a straight up miss or anything. .. This isn't the first car I've worked on (and I'm not trying to sound like an a-hole, just can't seem word that any less of a rude sounding way). I've done a few engine swaps, HG's etc in 240SX's. Headgasket on a 240 is a breeze though, a lot less components to touch.

Tomorrow since it's night now and I have no worklight. I'll check the following things: Fuel Pressure, Plugs, Plug wires (test continuity and correct firing order) and vacuum leaks. If that all checks out, I'll pull the fuel rail off and recheck my injectors to make sure there isn't any dirt plugging them up or anything. Though thats unlikely, it should still be checked at this point.

-One thing I did notice when I was tearing down the engine, so I think it's irrelevant but something to still ask about. The end of my fuel rail on the entrance side (near the dizzy), there is like this little threaded hole. There is nothing in it, and hasn't been to my knowledge. I know on modern returnless cars there is a pull clip for pressure release on one end. Anyone know if i'm missing something there?

The car before the HG did have the symptom of what could have been a leaky injector or FPR. Would crank for 2-3 seconds without a fire, then fire right up the next try without any hesitation... Wondering if maybe this problem is worsened?

ZCRX1988

Reused the old spark plugs. NGK V-power. Gap is .044. They only had maybe 500 miles on them because I went ahead and put new plugs in when I bought it. I always change the oil, and do plugs when I I buy the car. -usually- run fuel cleaner, new plug wires and cap/rotor and fuel filter but I didn't get around to that yet with this one. Cap/rotor look decent, not new but nothing that should be a problem either, plug wires are NGK, look maybe a year old, fuel filter i'm not sure about but it ran before so I think this is a non-issue.

I'll be fixing the code 6 tomorrow also just to get rid of the annoyance.

And the cam gears, the Exhaust Arrow points almost 12 o'clock perfect I believe and the intake arrow is like 11-11:30 (I will double check in the daylight, it could be at 12:30, just off the other way from pointing up). I believe every source I've read for timing, they say the two dashes will line up on the cam gears and the arrows will point upwards but not perfectly up. I'll post pictures tomorrow to help this along. This is driving me insane.

Only one other time have I EVER been stumped on a car. Timing my last 240SX engine. But that had a good reason. My buddy didn't inform me the lightweight crank pulley we installed had incorrect TDC marks, and the distributor shaft was twisted about 20-degrees off but not visibly noticeable. Dist was on an engine that threw a rod, didn't really think about it at the time 5 years ago lol... So this is only my second time getting owned in 7 years of working on imports haha.

Edit: If I can get it to work, I'll upload and link a video on youtube of the car running to help get this solved.

90civic-ZC

https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-crx-ef-civic-1988-1991-3/need-some-help-dohc-zc-cams-3000127/ The second post down by jlicrx has a link that he gave me when I had to do my timing belt. It was the second one I've ever put on, if you follow that then you'll get it perfect. The only complication I had was I second guessed myself like twenty times. Reason I post this link is because it sounds like your cams are still slightly off.....hard to say without a picture but you also mentioned "popping" which I'm not sure if you mean it's back firing or not. Though like the other guy said about not having a exhaust hooked up, I would attach it.

~sp33~

I really think you need to be 100% on your vacuum routing to the MAP sensor, if this is wrong, or you have if the vacuum line on the wrong intake manifold port then your car will over fuel and struggle to idle.

If the car was running before you did the HG, then the chances are that the reason the car is no longer running properly is because you've re installed something incorrectly.

i don't think it's an injector issue.

Sounds like you've got the right mark on the crank pulley, and the arrows should definitely not be facing straight up like someone else in this thread suggested. The way that you've described sounds correct, except when you put a ruler up the outside markings on the cam gears shouldn't be in line with the inside markings, they'll be a little bit higher than the upper surface of the head.

Definitely try addressing all your codes too, the coolant temp sensor is the two wire plug under the distributor. Check it's plugged in and for continuity.

Can you post a picture?

Also check to make sure you replaced all your grounds properly, usual ones most people forget to reattach are the thermostat ground and valve cover ground. I've heard of some odd electrical issues and idle issues ensuing from a poorly grounded engine.

ZCRX1988

Well I believe I got it running. Don't ask me exactly what fixed it because all I can do is guess.

-I was wrong about the ruler lining the timing marks up, the outer ones were a little higher. I put the engine to TDC and pulled the valve cover off and the cam holes were perfect. I didn't touch anything and put it back together. Tried starting it, and it just popped and cranked. But I knew timing was correct so I looked elsewhere.

-Fuel pressure was around 35-40 on ACC. With it running it hovered in the mid 30's area and giving it a little blip with the throttle cable got it around 40 I believe.

- Pulled plugs and checked for gap, all look dry fouled a good bit. Also tried to check for continuity on my plug wires, however the battery in my multimeter failed, so I didn't get to test this.

-I put my distributor in the middle and got absolutely no firing, but max advance and retard got partial fires. So I put it to max retard (Rotated clockwise, max.. may have typo'd this earlier) since it was almost nearly if not max'd before I pulled the HG. Will be renting or buying a timing light tomorrow.

-I did notice my injector plugs weren't fully clipped. This is the only thing to my knowledge that I changed. The clips were on and down just not clicked fully down but the injector plug was down all the way. You could remove the plugs but they would go all the way down and not just pop off or anything. I used a flat head and slightly opened the clips and pushed them all down all the way.

- I also jiggled the wiring harness around the distributor checking for broken/loose cable since my tach signal was gone.

Did all this and the car fired right up. Tach was working also. Was idling kinda low, 800 but otherwise good. Gave the throttle a blip and it had a very slight hesitation. Killed the car and fixed the coolant temp plug. Both wires were broken at the base of the plug, so instead of de-pinning since the plug was pretty coroded. I spliced the wires with bullet terminals, wrapped the outside of the terminal with electrical tape so that only the inside area is hot, and it clicks right over the little prongs on the sensor. So that was fixed. Also put my cat back on since I figured the now slight hesitation could be backpressure related. I know from other cars open header/open downpipe does not like sub 1500rpms on most cars.

Tried again and it fired perfectly. Cold idling around 1800rpms. Very smooth, respsonsive the throttle and everything. I can only assume my injector plugs were boncing on and off the injectors.

One of my rear drums is dragging (I think ebrake is sticking) and have all new brake parts to put on tomorrow before I can test drive the car, so I can't get it to a garden hose yet to flush the system so I'm turning it off after a minute of running to prevent overheating. But it seems like everything is good engine wise now.

So I now have 2 remaining questions:
1: I didn't replace the timing belt. In all honesty the belt looked alright and I didn't really think before hand that the belt would be touched much (headgasket on my previous 240, you just ziptie the cam gear to the timing chain and the head just slides over and off.). The belt still looks okay but it's got a bit of a supercharger whirl to it. Not at idle but if you raise the rpms it's noticable and I don't think it was before. Could it be overtensioned, or is it just cause it's been tampered with? I read around with people saying new belts doing it but re-using the old belt I didn't hear anything. I will replace the belt anyways I guess, but just not sure if it's an ASAP thing or if it can wait a week.. Just don't want to go to take off at a light and get up to 3krpms and hear SNAP-SCREECH

2: Anyone know an easy way to brake the crank pulley bolt loose without an impact?

-- And THANK YOU for everyone that has been helping me. I mean I don't know what exactly fixed it since I touched multiple things, but had it not been for me asking, I probably wouldn't have touched those specific parts and still been checking my timing belt..=\

90civic-ZC

800 RPM's is good for hot idle....I think spec is 800 - 850....IF the timing belt looked fine and didn't notice any teeth on it rubbed hard or missing and when you tensioned it, it didn't have slack then I'd say it's good. But personally since you've taken it off and reused it you always have that percentage of it being stretched and plus I assume you don't know when it was last replaced. I forgot how much my timing belt was but I would definitely prefer spending 20 - 30 bucks instead of hundreds on a new head or head work. As far as the whirl, I did my timing belt about three weeks ago and I have that same sound.....It's almost like the timing belt it rubbing the disc's on the crank gear but I've been keeping a eye out on it and nothing I have seen has shown me that it's causing damage. Maybe someone else can hit on that subject alittle better. The crank pulley will be HARD to take off without a impact gun or that special too to keep it stationary. I used a impact gun and still had to spray PB Blaster on it for it to come off. I would use a impact gun or get that special tool or it might be more of a pain for you especially if I remember correctly that you're working on your car at your apartment parking lot. I wouldn't suggest doing this because it's a horrible and redneckish but you could stick a screw driver through the cam gear while the valve cover is off and use that to stop the engine from rotating.....but I personally would NOT do it. Congrates on getting the car running though man!

~sp33~

Good to hear you got it running right, definitely pick up a timing light though.

I'm thinking that the whirring noise you're getting from the timing belt might be from a worn tensioner. Mine doesn't make that whirring noise, it might be in your best interest to change it. Atleast then you've got 100,000 miles of a clear conscience.

There are ways of cracking the crank pulley bolt without a rattle gun, but they're just not worth the pain, go to your local mechanics and offer to pay them a few bucks to crack the bolt with their air tools, then get them to just do it up tight enough to get you home. It's definitely worth it.

ZCRX1988

I might just have to drive my car 200miles back to my parents house to do the belt. Most my big equipment like air tools and extra jacks are there. I think the belt would be good for that smallish trip. I let the car idle again for a few minutes and checked the belt and belt tension, it looks okay. The whirring almost sounds like it's coming from the cam gears. Wondering if the noise has to do with new cam gaskets behind the gears? or it's just the belt.

I read the prelude 2.0si belt is the same as ours, and it's only like $35. Does the tensioner work also or is that more engine specific.

I'm just glad I got it firing. Now I just have to fix the small leak coming from the top of the gas tank, replace the front rotors/pads, rear drums/shoes, add a radio and speakers and I'll have a decent car. I knew it needed work when I bought it, but the body, paint and frame were so clean, so well kept that I jumped on it.

~sp33~

The OEM part number is: You can also use the tensioner from any 92-00 D series civic.