Alan Wil

RE: BIG brake upgrade on a 4th generation Civic CRX SI HF DX except without using the "RARE" 90-91 Civic EX knuckles/hubs.

Gentlemen (and Ladies),

What I’m trying to do is find out and document if Integra DA LS steering knuckles can be used successfully on a 4th generation Civic (Civic DX Hatchback). Successfully means the car can be aligned, not just the parts bolting up with Caster, Camber, SAI Roll center heights, Roll axis, etc being within usable specs. Car is lowered a little less than 2 inches.

I've revised this first post slightly since some are posting the stock brakes are 'enough", that they may be upgraded using XYZ super duty pads or such. That may be the case for some since they may be in a "class" that forbids suspension modifications and they have to keep the stock brakes, abet running a "racing pad".

By using a physically larger brake disc this enables mounting the caliper further out from the hub which increases the brake effective radius, making the car with street pads just a effective as a car running race pads, abet with street pads instead.. Using a bigger disc also increase the brake swept area in relationship to the weight of the car. A side benefit is the pedal feels better and is easier to modulate. Another side benefit of course of a larger disc is increased heat dissipation, and overall longer brake component life.

I'm looking to do a big brake upgrade that:

1: Pads can be bought at ANY auto parts store. ANYWHERE in the world! Some have suggested upgrades via certain types of pads, etc. I'm not looking for that as most such pads are abrasive, they "eat" the brake disc. (Same concept as sticky tires.... Sticky tires wear fast due to the soft compounds.... Certain pads "grab' better but are abrasive /eat (wear-out) the disc). Plus most race pads never get to optimal operating temp on the street.

2:The discs /calipers are physically bigger. Looking to increase swept braking area via a larger brake disc, and caliper, pads, so "regular" pads can be used. Pads, and discs are long lived.

3: Do it on the "cheap", using junkyard /OEM parts instead of custom made stuff.

In other words picture a little car with big brakes, and STICKY tires. (Type R sized brakes)
* * * * * *

So keeping the above in mind and the fact not all big brake upgrades are just for racing use please post YOUR specs if YOU, or a close friend has personally or professionally done this swap. Please no hearsay, or I’ve heard it will work.


Here’s a link to get us started: http://hybrid2.honda-perf.org/tech/bigbrakes.html

It’s about a 11 inch BIG brake upgrade on a 4th generation Civic’s .
I want to do the same thing, except without using the "RARE" 90-91 Civic EX knuckles/hubs mentioned,... But instead using 91 Integra LS knuckles, and 93-96 Prelude VTEC rotors, re-drilled to 4x100, 91-94 Accord Calipers.

I have contacted Brian Hasty of FastBrakes...one of the original posters about the above swap. He could not confirm if the Integra parts would work properly or not.

One gentleman had said the Integra knuckles are 2 inches taller than the Oem parts! (LOL), others have said about 1/2 inch. As you may or may not know IF knuckle height is changed this changes roll center heights/roll axis, and affects the amount camber change during cornering. (Alters steering geometry).. Which may be good, or bad.

So far it seems no- one has "plotted" the effects on roll center heights, etc. Some have said Caster is affected, others have said caster is unaffected.

So as you see there is allot of misinformation about this subject. Most all have said swap adds a small amount of positive camber, which would be perfect for cars that have been lowered. No one has specified how much, or how many degrees of positive camber is added though. I'm really surprised there is not a FAQ on brake upgrades for 4th generation Civics... as there are still a lot of them out there.

http://www.automotiveforums.co...pp=15

Please post your specs people!


Camber =Amount of change +/-
Camber kit installed?, if so what brand? Impressions of camber kit =
Caster = Affected or not, if so amount of change
SAI (Steering Axis Inclination) =
Steering knuckle height, Integra vs Civic= Amount of change
Roll Center height=
Roll Axis=
Car aligned /alignable?=
Alignment printout?=
Ride height of car/ Amount car has been lowered?=
What are your alignment specs?=
Impression of car after swap was made, how does car drive, feel????=

From what research I have done so far swapping Integra braking components/suspension seems to be a "commonly" ASKED question. But NO-One knows by how MUCH Caster, Camber, SAI Roll center height, Roll-axis, bumpsteer, etc is affected. There is allot of misinformation and HEARSAY on this subject.

Here’s the shopping list for 11.1 front brakes:
93-96 Prelude VTEC rotors are a direct fit with the pattern redrilled to 4x100.
91-94 Accord Wagon front calipers are THE SAME CALIPER as comes on the TypeR. EXACTLY THE SAME. (Or maybe 2 piston Legend ones.) http://www.accordinglydone.com...ipers
1 inch Master cylinder off a ???

Shopping list for 10.3 brakes , Same as above mostly.
Front Swap
90-93 Integra Steering Knuckle (knuckle, disc and calipers add 6lbs. 7ozs per side)
90-93 Integra Caliper
90-93 Integra Discs
Front "soft" brake lines from Civic

Rear Swap
90-93 Integra Complete Trailing Arm from 4-door Integra LS Auto trans. NOTE: Some have said that the rear "spindle" can be unbolted from the DA trailing arm and used on the Civic trailing arm. The DA trailing arm does have a bigger "main bushing".
Rear "soft" Brake lines from DA

Handbrake Cable from ?????-
Proportioning Valve from 91 4-door Integra LS Auto trans., marked XX/ZZ
Booster -Stock Civic, 90 model can be used
Master Cylinder from either a 90-91 Civic EX sedan, or from a 89-91? Prelude. Both are 15/16, bolt to stock booster. NOTE: If Integra M/C is used you will have to swap out M/C and booster

World bank: Big brakes Upgrade upgrading upgraded Swap better less distance Bigger Faster stop stopping Integra DA LS DX CRX SI Steering knuckle rotor disc pad M/C Master cylinder axle axles camber kit positive negative caster toe in toe-in GSR Type R alignment align aligned specs setting settings value values handle handling B16 B18 H22 H23 swap turbo engine swapping swapped

Please post your specs people! Say what year /model car you have, and what year model the braking components were borrowed from and of course what ride height your car is at.

Thanks,



Modified by Alan Wil at 8:10 PM 12/16/2003

mntuner2

Well, I think these varying specs are due to the condition of the steering knuckle. When a steering knuckles is bent it will mess up the caster and SAI (Steering Axis Inclination.) So make sure they come with a warranty if your buying boneyard parts. Make sure you go to a reputable alignment shop. And try not to lower your car too much. That will definately do more harm than good.

Ben Ogle

I have the DA knuckles on my 88 and they are fine. I originally thought they were bad because of the bumpsteer I had. But then I fixed the toe and now all is well. I do autox the car and can say that it feels a little different than with the stock knuckles. It sure isnt a bad different, maybe not even a good different and the braking is well worth the difference. I suggest at least getting the 15/16" MC (civic ex or DA non ABS) to go with the brakes. The 1" DA ABS one works too, thats what I'm using.

I dont know how much the caster is different. and I ended up with a little toe out and a touch less neg camber (maybe .5deg).

HTH

Ben

Alan Wil

Hi Ben ,

1: Hate to ask ...What is DA short for?
2: How did you fix your Bumpsteer?
The knuckles I have are off a Auto 91 Integra LS 4 door. Got the entire suspension, and proportioning valve. Messed up and missed out on the MC /Brake booster and upper control arms. Thinking about pulling the FRONT sway bar... Will it fit a 90 CIVIC DX?, already have rear one and brackets. Figured a slightly bigger front bar, and light rear bar would work pretty well... Right?

My main concern right now is how the Integra knuckles affect steering geometry. (It's my wife's car if you can relate) I started a thread here asking for alignment specs and such: http://www.automotiveforums.co...97661

In the above thread (page 3) Ev0lution7, and Incucivic say they are the same dimensionally. Others say the Integra knuckles are "taller /higher" in overall length. Incucivic works at a Nissan dealership doing alignments has "restored" the Integra knuckles that he put on his car, and has compared them side by side with the CRX Si knuckles that came off the car. He says the mounting points are the same. (Project car.. not running yet. No alignment has been done on it)

I finally convinced 91EF3ZC that has a 91 Civic SI that had been having "problems" with his car (car feels unstable, especially in the rain) to go by for a FREE alignment check. Turns out the 1st alignment shop that had said everything was within spec was Lying.

His specs are still off, but the alignment shop adjusted his TOE, and he is much happier with the car.

His alignment specs don't look too far out. Note that he does not have a front camber kit, he has a rear camber kit and is running quite a bit of negative camber on the rear. It looks likes to me that the other specs could be brought back into range by either a Front camber kit... OR by using Front upper control arms off an Integra. (UCA's ). He said he's going back for a 4-wheel alignment once he gets a front camber kit...

PS: Incucivic posted that supposedly the Integra UCA add a small amount of POSITVE camber, and can used as a "Cheap" camber fix. Anyone know how much camber they add? The car I have is lowered a little less than 2 inches so if Integra UCA add a little positive camber that would be great.

If any of you alignment guys want me to e-mail you a copy of the 91EF3ZC's alignment printout to look at just e-mail me. It would be appreciated if you could do so.


Thanks



Modified by Alan Wil at 10:12 PM 11/4/2003

Alan Wil

mntuner2,
I understand what you are saying but my question was about “swapping” Integra steering knuckles on a 4th generation Civic (DX), assuming the parts are NOT bent to effect a big brake upgrade.

Am I to take what you are saying to mean that the Integra parts can be used “successfully” if they are NOT bent? (Successfully means the car can be aligned). One of my concerns is some have said the Integra knuckles are “taller” overall than the Civic parts, which would affect roll center heights. Heard anything about that? Or heard anything about SAI being affected?

Here on page 3 is a post of someone who has done the swap. To me it looks like everything could be brought back into range. So far as SAI (Steering Axis Inclination.) That did not show up on the alignment printout that the poster 91EF3ZC e-mailed me.
http://www.automotiveforums.co...97661

PS: The car this stuff is going on is lowered about 1.8 f, 1.5 rear so the car should be able to be aligned assuming the Integra parts are not too much differant from the Civic ones.

mntuner2 posted:
“Well, I think these varying specs are due to the condition of the steering knuckle. When a steering knuckles is bent it will mess up the caster and SAI (Steering Axis Inclination.) So make sure they come with a warranty if your buying boneyard parts. Make sure you go to a reputable alignment shop. And try not to lower your car too much. That will definately do more harm than good.”



Modified by Alan Wil at 8:59 AM 11/5/2003

Origin

from what i understand you can do a few things to your stock brakes and be safe. such as brembo blanks, stainless steel brake lines, and some new brake pads and brake fluid. from what some people have told me this will stop you well enough, unless you are dipping in the 10 sec category which was quoted from an H-T member. cons of bigger brakes = more weight but they do look good.

Origin

and i only replied with this message because you were looking for a cheaper route. not because i totally think that big brake upgrades are useless. good luck

Alan Wil

Origin,
Thanks for the ideas, (Brembo blanks, stainless steel brake lines, and some new brake pads and brake fluid), But I really need to upgrade to bigger discs.. (I do understand the trade off involved in going bigger.)

I have the full suspension off a 91 Integra LS, and found a set of calipers off a 91 Legend 4 door 3.2 L Auto trans car.

Your supposed to use 91-94 Accord Wagon front calipers (THE SAME CALIPER as comes on the TypeR.) But since I got a good deal on the Legend parts, I’m going to try to use them instead. The Legend calipers should work according to Brian Hasty, owner of FastBrakes… and one of the authors of the info on this page: http://hybrid2.honda-perf.org/bigbrakes.html

Brian Hasty of FastBrakes was a super nice guy when I called him, but he could not confirm IF the Integra knuckles could be used on a Civic.

Keep the ideas coming.
Thanks,



Modified by Alan Wil at 9:07 AM 11/5/2003

Ben Ogle

DA is the 90-93 integra chassis code (coupe only, not gsr, but lets not get picky).

my bumpsteer was fixed by adjusting my toe (I had toe out, I think. it was a while ago) to 0.

My suggestions for the other stuff:
stay away from the teg front sway and, if you have it, put on that 15.9mm DA 4dr rear sway (it will say the size on the locator bushings on where the sway mounts to the chassis). Also, keep your civic upper arms. the DA guys ususally like the civic upper arms for caster reasons.

I have the stock front sway and the teg coupe 14.7mm rear sway (along with 400f/500r spring rates) and the car rotates nicely.

I have yet to put my teg proportioning valve in so I cant tell you to do that. It should be better but who knows.

Btw, the complete knuckles add 6lbs 7oz per side incase you were wondering.

And my camber is 2.5deg in the front on a 2.25" or so drop (the drop thing is all so relative anyway) with the knuckles and civic UCAs.

All in all I love the DA brakes. they suck on my DA but man do they work on my 2020lb civic.

If you have any more questions let me know. I like to see an informed person posting. Or at least someone who is willing to look a lot before he asks.



Ben

Alan Wil

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the additional info. Great to talk with someone that doesn’t just say: “Hey dude, just put it on man, yea it’ll work, be ‘slamming”…

The car will be driven by my wife, so I’m sort of wondering about just adding a rear sway by itself, I do already have the rear DA bar. From what I’ve read I need a set of SI lower control arms to be able to use it though (OR drill a tap the existing arms)

Anyhow.. any reason not to use the front DA bar in conjunction with the rear bar (Both off of a 4-door 91 LS) I don’t have the FRONT DA, bar yet. If it’s still at the junkyard I may get it since it’s only $5.36.

The Civic currently has just a front bar (I think it’s 19mm) I did put in a full master Energy suspension bushing kit several months ago. Will be converting over to DA rear trailing arms and discs in rear. (Yes I know the disc set-up weighs more, just need to install new bushings in them before I install them)

Civic is lowered about 1.8 f, 1.5 rear running 16x7 204/45-16 rims with “square/ out-of round” , el-crap-o Nitto 450 Extremes I think. Run about 39 PSI front and rear Bought the tire /rims used, knew the tires were crap… Gotten about a years worth of driving on them though (Looking into TIRES) Do have one bent rim, but I have a brand new spare in the box, plus am looking into the process used to straighten rims. Amy just sell off the 16’s and go to a 15-inch with a 50? Series tires as the 45 series ride sort of rough. If not what a good “cheap” tire? She only drive about 3 miles to work everyday.. And we use the car to run errands around here and there.
Civic was bought brand new, has never been wrecked. I used to work on cars professionally (Porsche /BMW and such) That may explain why I want huge brakes on the car, eh? Will be doing an engine swap at some point. That 3.2L V-6 in that 91 Legend I got the calipers off of looked good, but it would have to go in the back seat so I’ll pass on that for now.

Springs are about 20% stiffer than stock. (Don’t have the spring rates right now)

* Question: “the DA guys usually like the civic upper arms for caster reasons”. So they use Civic UCA for to change their CASTER? If that were the case the Integra UCA would do the reverse on a Civic…. Which way does it change caster? Does it change camber as well?
PS: Thanks for the extra info, especially nice to know was the weight difference between the Civic and Integra knuckles.

hahagasdcrx

my crx is lowered 2.0" on all fours and have 1991 integra LS knuckes, calipers, and rotors and my alignment was still good just needed to get the toe adjusted. I originally bought the setup to put an AEM big brake kit on but after 3 weeks of use the rotors warped on me so now just using brembo blanks and it stops on a dime......

Ben Ogle

I used 89 DX LCA's, drilled a 3/8" hole in them and used some grade 8 bolts to mount the swaybar. Not the best solution but I couldnt find si LCA's (the DA ones might be the same length, might want to look into that).

The only reason not to use the front bar is that it will create more understeer than the 18mm civic front bar. I dont know if you've ever driven a stock DA integra but I have one and it doesnt rotate all that well.

I also have the rear trailing arms. I didnt weigh them but they didnt feel that much heavier than the drums. Just make sure you have rear brakelines and e-brake cables for the teg trailing arms.

For my drive around tires I got some kumho 711's in 195/50/15 size. They are $37 a tire at tires.com and are stickier than my paradas (which suck a big one btw).

yeah, the civic upper arms supposedly give you more caster. I have not measured this but if you want I can give you the e-mail of someone who uses them on their autox 91ls sedan. I dunno about the camber change.

Do you have any good junkyards around? Like ones where you can go walk through their yard and look at anything you want? If so go there with a tape measure. I have done this plenty of times for other projects and they are really cool about it. I even go in there with my postal scale sometimes. They look at me kind of weird but are fine with it.

Ben

89civicdx

I use the teg front knuckles ...if you adjust the front toe you will be fine.

Heres my car it handles great...the knucles wouldn't be on there if they caused any probs.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=609147

On another note...you don't really need them, they don't make a HUGE diff, I might even be taking mine off and putting back the stock brakes as I don't think they are worth the weight increase. + for track pads the cost of a teg pad is like $40 MORE then for a civic pad...not worth it.

EL Vap133

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 89civicdx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I use the teg front knuckles ...if you adjust the front toe you will be fine.

Heres my car it handles great...the knucles wouldn't be on there if they caused any probs.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=609147

On another note...you don't really need them, they don't make a HUGE diff, I might even be taking mine off and putting back the stock brakes as I don't think they are worth the weight increase. + for track pads the cost of a teg pad is like $40 MORE then for a civic pad...not worth it.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did you upgrade your Master Cylinder and brake booster also?

89civicdx

I'm using the 89 prelude MC ,Earls steel braided lines oh and Hawk Blues that alone cost me a ridiculous $240 canadian(just for the pads!)

The car stops great...but that upgrade is not worth it over civic brakes with the same upgrades.

Not saying its not good...just not much better.

Alan Wil

RE: I used the teg front knuckles ...if you adjust the front toe you will be fine. Track pads the cost of a teg pad is like $40 MORE

Hi 89CivicDx,

1:How can I get some CLOSE-UPS of that splitter you made? ( I rather have a copy of your alignment specs given the choice.)

2: I'm using the teg knuckles because I got them cheap.. Otherwise I would try to hunt down some Civic EX ones. I'm going to NOT use the 10.3? brake discs or calipers of the DA.. I'm going to use 93-96 Prelude VTEC discs and GSR sized calipers instead. Not really concerned with cost of track pads as my wife drives the thing. I figure with larger brakes the discs and pads will last a LONG time as those big pads /discs don't have to work very hard.

Here's a link with better /more detailed info. Has 5th generation info as well. http://hybrid2.honda-perf.org/tech/bigbrakes.html

I used to work on Porsches and I'm for some strange reason attracted to cars that have huge brakes. Saw one of those Porsche SUV's up close for the first time today in the parking deck... Looks like Porsche is using 4-pistion calipers on them. Bravo for the SUV Porsche! (I normally hate SUV's)

Was trying to figure out how I could sneak them off the car and graft them onto something else.. Like one of my cars....he-he. Also liked the instrument cluster as well. I saw (2) similar Porsche instrument clusters on Ebay a while back... They went for something like $20 for both. I think one had a bad fuel gauge and the other had another defect. Could have made one good one out of the two, or both could maybe could have been repaired.... Oh, well....

* * *
Have 4 questions:

1: Today I got the front sway bar off the Auto 91 DA LS 4-door auto... Front bar 23mm (hollow ?. Rear is 15.5mm ? and appears to be solid. 90 Civic DX only came with a front bar of 18mm (solid?) This will be my wife's car. Car will not be autocrossed. Driven on the street. Current 18mm swaybar has POLY bushings. The bar I got today has of course rubber inserts that will be replaced with POLY bushings. My question is will this set-up be 'ok".

2: 89 prelude MC... When I change over to 4 wheel disc, I plan on using the Integra LS portioning valve. DA LS discs /calipers on the rear and either 91-94 Accord Wagon front calipers . (THE SAME CALIPER as comes on the TypeR. EXACTLY THE SAME)... Or 91 Legend 3.2L V-6 Auto 4-door front calipers. Main casting number appears to be the same as noted for above calipers.
My question is Why did you use the 89 Prelude MC... and more importantly which MC /brake booster combo should I be looking for considering the size of the legend /type R calipers. Does the Prelude unit bolt up to the stock brake booster? (Probably not...right?)

UPDATE: found a wbpage that talked about shaving some off the Prelude master cylinder to make it fit Civic booster.
That's like a 89-91 cylinder, right?

The reason I ask about the Prelude MC is I think I saw a Prelude at the junkyard today. Normally I wouldn't use junkyard parts, but I plan to rebuild it.

3: Anyone know a source for parts to rebuild Master cylinders? Years ago everyone sold re-build kits, now no-one does it seems (Liability issues?... Plus they make more money off selling you the entire MC, instead of $3.00 worth of seals.)

4: Will be doing an engine swap.. (most likey B16) The axles from the LS are from a auto car. Are Auto and 5-speed axles the same? Seems to me from a manufacturing standpoint the axles would be to keep costs down.

Look forward to hearing back from you..
PS: Thanks for the info in your previous post.


Modified by Alan Wil at 2:41 PM 11/7/2003

Alan Wil

Get the info coming guys. It's just getting interesting!

89civicdx

Uhm thats alot of work for your wifes car!...I wanna see pics of your wife


Sorry I have no more pics of the splitter.

I used the 89 prelude mc as it bolts to the stock booster...I didn't have to shave ANYTHING OFF THE MC. I saw that link too and to be honest thats the first guy I've heard had to to that I know many many people who run the prelude MC and it just bolts up with no prob.

the 91 teg MC mounting bracket doesn't line up with the stock booster...therefore you have to change the booster as well. The 91 teg MC is 15/16 the Prelude MC is 15/16. Unless your booster doesn't work and is a problem I wouldn't bother.

You don't need a bigger front sway bar on the car...I use no front bar. and a type-r rear bar.If you want a front bar just keep the stock bar , but this is something you will have to decide for yourself.

Oh yes about junkyard parts...the whole reason you are changing your brakes in the first place are probaly because they are old and worn...therefore buying MC's from the junkyard is just going to have you making the same trip back and forth to get more MC's I think I bought like 4 MC's @ $20 each and they all kept loosing their pressure before I bought a new one for $100.

Alan Wil

Hi 89CivicDx,
1: 89 prelude mc bolts to stock booster: Check.
2: Type-r rear bar… How BIG is it? And is it solid, or hollow?
I understand what your saying about junkyard stuff. I’ve worked on Porsches and such PROFESSIONALY for over twenty years. There’s a reason they call it the “junk” yard.

The brakes work fine on her car… Nothing wrong with them… I just want bigger ones. The OEM discs lasted for about 5-6 years, then were replaced with discs from AUTOZONE…. They would warp about once a year… (I think they had a lifetime warranty, and then they went to a 1-year warranty.) After that set was toast I decided to try another vendor. The next and current set of discs came from Advance Auto Parts. Been on the car for about 2 years, not problem... yet.

On the sway bars..
I noticed in your link you’re:
A: Racing the car.. I.E. not being used on the street. Having the car “rotate” easily on the street requires a skillful driver, and lots of luck to not get yourself killed.
B: I noticed your running 900lb springs on the rear… (and read somewhere “maybe” 600 on the front?) I running springs that are only about 20% stiffer than stock.
So in your case I would think only a rear bar would be thing to do. On the street “most” drivers would have problems with not having a front sway, as the car would rotate too easily.

On those sway bars off the Auto 91 DA LS 4-door auto... Front bar 23mm (hollow ?. Rear is 15.5mm (soild?).. Front Civic one is 18mm (solid?), I was figuring using the DA bar would not be a BIG upgrade to the front sway as it IS hollow, and using the rear DA sway would give the car less of a bias towards understeer compared to the OEM set-up without giving it too much bias towards the rear. Note than the springs rates I’m running are only 20% stiffer than stock.
Ever heard anything or run across info DA sway bar rates, OR info on how to calculate hollow /vs. solid sway bar rates? Hollow bar would be good for saving weight if nothing else.

PS: Are Auto DA LS axles the same as 5-speed ones?
Look forward to hearing back from you.

89civicdx

hey

1.type-r rear bar is 22mm solid

2.Not having a front bar doesn't automatically = oversteer/rotation. I wish it was so easy to get it to rotate!

Rear ends on front wheel drive cars don't just step out like majic its more of a driver issue plus if you are only running soft rates I don't see it as a problem. Also you shouldn't be pushing the car so hard with a bar or not if you aren't prepaired to deal with the back stepping out as that happens with front bars too. So you can't put all your faith in your setup when you should put it in your driving.

Really having a front bar is a personal choice as some LOVE their front bars and some would just as easily love to toss em in the trash.

But I will admit that for a street car the front sway bar does tighten the front end up quite a bit on our 88-91's and it does "FEEL" better...on the street that is Also if you are running soft rates it definately helps in keeping the car off the bumpstops.

To be honest I've never actually given any attention to any of the front bars but I would say guess they are solid as they weigh a good amount.

Hmm I'm not sure about the axles I use 5 spd DA axles on my sohc...you might get a quicker answer in the teg forum.

Ben Ogle

I dont know about the ITR bar but the civic and integra front and rear sway bars are hollow. I cut the ends off my 14.7mm DA bar to put on alu blocks. It is hollow. And that 4dr da one is 15.9mm.

I think the no front bar and an ITR sway (22mm) is mucho overkill for the street.

89civicdx, your car must be a tail happy bastard. Mine is oversteer prone and I am not running near the rear stiffness bias you are. cause you can control it.

Ben

Alan Wil

Hi 89civicdx,

The point I was trying to make is on a street car you don’t want the car to rotate TOO easily in most cases. For an Racecar / Autocross car yes… but the street unlike the race track is not a “controlled environment”. In a perfect world I’d take the car that oversteers… but on the street oversteer “usually” will get you into trouble.

So far as the “weights” of the bars I was more concerned with “rates” of the 23mm hollow bar compared to the 18mm bar that comes on the DX as OEM. The actual weight of the bar was/is not my primary concern. IÂ’m more concerned with the difference of roll stiffness between the Civic bar and the DA bar.

I figured the DA bar would add a small amount of roll stiffness to the front (say 25%), and the rear bar would balance /counteract amount of difference by a slightly greater amount (say 35%) giving slightly more roll stiffness at the front while at the same time adding some to the rear to decrease understeer…

Ever run across any programs or info that allows you to plug-in anti-sway bar dimensions to get the effective rate?

So your running 900lb spring rear, and 600F? 22mm Rear bar. Zero Camber on rear. No front bar.

What kind /size tires are you running?

Any chance you can post the alignment settings are running? (Translation, can tell me what your camber /caster /toe, etc is set to.Confirm that SAI is ok, etc.)
This would be nice as it would confirm that Integra steering can be used and the car aligned after the swap.

If you can't post the settings "here" it would be appericated if you could e-mail me the settings instead.

Thanks,

Alan



Modified by Alan Wil at 7:09 PM 11/8/2003

89civicdx

Hmmm maybe I'm not the best for this thread because I like tail happy
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ben Ogle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
your car must be a tail happy bastard</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm running 650f 900r (I want to try 1200 next year) with a custom hollow 1 inch bar.
205-50-15 RA1
rear is 22mm with redrilled lever arms and heim joints(you know I don't know FOR SURE if its solid) But again I would be suprised as that type r rear bar probaly weighs as much as the rear & front civic bars. I haven't had the oppurtunity to cut one open If it is hollow it is probaly a 2mm hole as the thing is disgustingly heavy. I would have run sliding blocks on it but the arms are far from straight.

If you want to run a stock or DA rear bar they are easily modified as the lever arms are long...that bar can be made to run much stiffer then stock but it is up to you to modify your endlink placement.

To be honest there is one guy on this board who is really good with suspension theory ,you can PM him his name is RR98ITR he knows more then I want to know because if I knew that much I would never get stuff done He would be good to discuss roll stiffness with.

anyhoo time to go to sleep or I will blabber on

mntuner2

I know for a fact that you can tell if the steering knuckle is bent by comparing actual SAI to the factory spec SAI. As for the heights, couldn't tell ya. Just know my basics.

Alan Wil

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mntuner2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know for a fact that you can tell if the steering knuckle is bent by comparing actual SAI to the factory spec SAI. As for the heights, couldn't tell ya. Just know my basics.</TD></TR></TABLE>


You are right, SAI ,etc will be changed by bent parts. The same can be said if parts are swapped from one kind of car to another.

On those steering kunkcle heights.... Some have said the Integra (DA) Steering Kunckles are "taller /higher" than the Civic parts... Well today I crawled under the Civic to have a look, and meaured the overall height. Everything looks REAL close if not the same as the DA parts. (Overall height)