j-spec_cc2

hey, whats up Honda-tech. i have a small problem that i hope y'all can help me with.

me and a friend of mine (of course i'm HONDA and he's a VW boy) are supposed to be having a little friendly competition. its a 1.8L 16v ALL MOTOR competition. we are trying to see who could get the faster car out of the both companies. i'll be using a 88-91 crx (possible an SI) and he'll be using a VW Rabbit (or Rabbit pick up truck).

i dont know whether i should choose the b18c1 or the b18c5. i know the compression ratio in the c5 helps give it the extra horsepower, but is there anything else that helps w/ this (besides the ECU cause i will most likely be going with the HONDATA setup).

also, we decided that as far as CAMS go, we would only use factory parts, but any other part on the motor can be aftermarket, so long as we stay within the 1.8L. from what i've heard, then best all motor cams are from the b18b. can someone give me some clarity on this?

thanks for your help guys.

Malgerus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by j-spec_cc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hey, whats up Honda-tech. i have a small problem that i hope y'all can help me with.

me and a friend of mine (of course i'm HONDA and he's a VW boy) are supposed to be having a little friendly competition. its a 1.8L 16v ALL MOTOR competition. we are trying to see who could get the faster car out of the both companies. i'll be using a 88-91 crx (possible an SI) and he'll be using a VW Rabbit (or Rabbit pick up truck).

i dont know whether i should choose the b18c1 or the b18c5. i know the compression ratio in the c5 helps give it the extra horsepower, but is there anything else that helps w/ this (besides the ECU cause i will most likely be going with the HONDATA setup).

also, we decided that as far as CAMS go, we would only use factory parts, but any other part on the motor can be aftermarket, so long as we stay within the 1.8L. from what i've heard, then best all motor cams are from the b18b. can someone give me some clarity on this?

thanks for your help guys.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like you're a bit mixed up here. The B18B cams are NON-VTEC and therefore will not work with the VTEC B18C1 and B18C5. If you're limited to factory parts, and have the money, then the B18C5 would be your best bet. It has the best Intake manifold, Cams, etc compared to the B18C1.

HOWEVER, If you can afford it, try to get a JDM B18C R spec engine, as it is the more aggressive than the USDM B18C5. It also has a killer transmission (more aggressive Final Drive than USDM) with an LSD.

The key to making N/A power with these engines is airflow. If you're limited to stock parts, try to get a JDM ITR Manifold (really it's a 4-1 header) and get a nice big 2.5 inch exhaust. If you do get an aftermarket header, make sure it has a 2.5" collector and not a 2.25" (which is far more common).

j-spec_cc2

sorry, i meant to say b16b cams, from the Civic Type-R. also, when it comes to only using factory parts, the only factory parts we decided on are the cams. everything else is allowed to be after market (i.e. i was thinking of running Individual Throttle Bodies).

thanks for your help.

31flavorscivic

ls/vtec? :D If you can do aftermarket rods and all that, I don't see why not.

davens

He doesn't get to run a 1.8 Turbo, does he? Cuz, if he does, I say ef him and cam up.

j-spec_cc2

lol....no, it'll be a fair ALL MOTOR vs. ALL MOTOR race. we'll probably also go to the dyno and see which vehicle makes more power. another stipulation to the race is that we both have to be able to run on pump gas.

all in all, i think this'll be a pretty interesting competition between two friends. but, i really wanna win, so any info you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated.

<U>IN REPLY TO THE LS/VTEC SETUP</U>
as far as i've known, most people that run LS/VTEC are running turbo. i haven't really heard of much people using this to run an ALL MOTOR set up. also, i've read that because of the rod/stroke ratio on the LS/VTEC, it isn't safe to run that engine too far past 7500 RPM. thanks for the suggestion though.

Malgerus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by j-spec_cc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol....no, it'll be a fair ALL MOTOR vs. ALL MOTOR race. we'll probably also go to the dyno and see which vehicle makes more power. another stipulation to the race is that we both have to be able to run on pump gas.

all in all, i think this'll be a pretty interesting competition between two friends. but, i really wanna win, so any info you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated.

<U>IN REPLY TO THE LS/VTEC SETUP</U>
as far as i've known, most people that run LS/VTEC are running turbo. i haven't really heard of much people using this to run an ALL MOTOR set up. also, i've read that because of the rod/stroke ratio on the LS/VTEC, it isn't safe to run that engine too far past 7500 RPM. thanks for the suggestion though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, most run an N/A LS/VTEC, I don't see many turbo'd ones around here. I have one myself, it ran a 13.5 with stock B16A2 cams They have more potential for power than a B18C1 or B18C5, and built properly have no longevity issues. I have stock rods and a balanced bottom end (arp rod bolts too) and spin it to 8300 with no problems.

31flavorscivic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr. S &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually, most run an N/A LS/VTEC, I don't see many turbo'd ones around here. I have one myself, it ran a 13.5 with stock B16A2 cams They have more potential for power than a B18C1 or B18C5, and built properly have no longevity issues. I have stock rods and a balanced bottom end (arp rod bolts too) and spin it to 8300 with no problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>



LSvtec mildly built can make at least 180-200 at the crank.

turboteener

If he runs the truck you will have a tough time. I have a buddy that has one with a stock 2.0 16 valve. In daily driver trim it weighs sub 2000lb. It is not stripped by any means. Plus the long wheel base will help keep the front wheels to the ground where your car will have a hard time putting the power down. (on launch)

Stunna MIKE

I believe that the most hp someones got out of a N/A LSV was 270whp.

Professor15

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by j-spec_cc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol....no, it'll be a fair ALL MOTOR vs. ALL MOTOR race. we'll probably also go to the dyno and see which vehicle makes more power. another stipulation to the race is that we both have to be able to run on pump gas.

all in all, i think this'll be a pretty interesting competition between two friends. but, i really wanna win, so any info you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated.

<U>IN REPLY TO THE LS/VTEC SETUP</U>
as far as i've known, most people that run LS/VTEC are running turbo. i haven't really heard of much people using this to run an ALL MOTOR set up. also, i've read that because of the rod/stroke ratio on the LS/VTEC, it isn't safe to run that engine too far past 7500 RPM. thanks for the suggestion though.</TD></TR></TABLE>YOur best bet IS to build a high compression Ls-vtec. The whole **** on rod to stroke ratio is bullshit on a street motor. If i were you i would do something like the following set-up(mind you i am not going to list the misc stuff you need like arp rod bolts or pumps n **** like that) : Ls block, P30 pistons(or you can go more extreme and go with PCT pistons) Head: Pr3 milled head to increase compression, ATLEAST a 3-angle vavle job, if you can afford to get more porting please do so, along with opening and porting out the intake manifold. Type R cams along with aftermarket valvetrain, and a good header a really good one like a RMF,SMSP,hytech, dtr etc. etc. YOu should also look into building your tranny with a good Lsd and a Final drive to match your set-up. Last but not least a good *** tuner!!

StorminMatt

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turboteener &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If he runs the truck you will have a tough time. I have a buddy that has one with a stock 2.0 16 valve. In daily driver trim it weighs sub 2000lb. It is not stripped by any means. Plus the long wheel base will help keep the front wheels to the ground where your car will have a hard time putting the power down. (on launch)</TD></TR></TABLE>

It is highly doubtful that a Volkswagen will come out ahead in an allmotor vs allmotor 1.8 liter race. Seriously, I have never heard of a remotely fast N/A H2O VW that didn't run a VR6. Also consider how far ahead even a stock B18C1 is compared to a VW 1.8 16v in terms of HP (170HP vs ~130-140HP). It is going to take a HELL of alot to even get HP parity from that motor. And given what can be done to get more power out of a GSR, he just doesnt stand a chance. The way I see it, it's already in the bag for the CRX.


Modified by StorminMatt at 3:18 AM 11/22/2005

SETI20

I wouldn't spend too much money on this if I were you. I'm running a B18C4 and I'm giving the VR6 a really good run for it's money.

j-spec_cc2

based on everyone's experience, what would be the highest compression ratio i could run on pump gas? i will have it tuned most likely at Mahdavi Motorsports in Atlanta, GA.

Spaceballsthelunchbox

With B16B cams and 12-1 comp ratio you will make approx 185 to 195 HP.
I made 189HP with that set up on my old B18C5.
13.4 at 105MPH I am not a good drag racer. The tires didn't help either, Falken azenis.

31flavorscivic

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StorminMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It is highly doubtful that a Volkswagen will come out ahead in an allmotor vs allmotor 1.8 liter race. Seriously, I have never heard of a remotely fast N/A H2O VW that didn't run a VR6. Also consider how far ahead even a stock B18C1 is compared to a VW 1.8 16v in terms of HP (170HP vs ~130-140HP). It is going to take a HELL of alot to even get HP parity from that motor. And given what can be done to get more power out of a GSR, he just doesnt stand a chance. The way I see it, it's already in the bag for the CRX.


Modified by StorminMatt at 3:18 AM 11/22/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>

The 1.8 turbo makes 180 HP, and the GSR 1.8 all MOTOR makes 170 &gt;&lt;. The honda is going to win here.

cmy-vtec

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by StorminMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Seriously, I have never heard of a remotely fast N/A H2O VW that didn't run a VR6. Also consider how far ahead even a stock B18C1 is compared to a VW 1.8 16v in terms of HP (170HP vs ~130-140HP). It is going to take a HELL of alot to even get HP parity from that motor.


Modified by StorminMatt at 3:18 AM 11/22/2005</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yea, and arent the trannys on those things super tall, my friend had one (80 something golf gti) and by the time it got up to its real power he would shift and the car would fall out of its power band....dramatically...it wasnt his driving either.

After wards he got an eg w/ b18a and gsr tranny and it was uncomparably faster then his golf.

Like storminmatt said...its in the bag, especially if you drop your motor in an 88 HF!

Good luck though and keep us posted on what happens.

j-spec_cc2

ok guys, sorry to bother you again about the situation.

i called my boy today while i was at work (gotta love gettin paid to sit and do nothing). he said that he talked to one of his other close friends (who is also into VW) and he is working on a 2.0L 16V setup. so he asked me if i wouldn't mind doing the same thing.

now, most likely, i will go ahead and do this cause i like competition. i would most likely build a CRVTEC w/ a B20 block and a B16 head. from what i've heard, the b18c head is too tall for the hood on the B20 block in a CRX.

now, i'm wondering, is it possible to still run B series pistons in the B20 block? i'm not asking this question tryin to be a noob, but i've researched the B20 block before and i've read somewhere that there are no aftermarket pistons for it.

also, if i do decide to do this setup, do you think running 12.6:1 c/r would be too high? i did the calculations (well, actually http://www.c-speedracing.com/h...c.php did the calculations for me) and using PCT (B16B) pistons on this setup would give me that c/r. is that too high or should i stick w/ the JDM p30 pistons (B16A) that would give me a 12.1:1 c/r.

i'm so confused. i enjoy the fun that we're gonna have in this competition, but naturally, I WANNA WIN!!!!!!!!!

thanks in advance for your help.

PS....i think we've also decided that we dont only have to use factory CAMS so anything goes just so long as it'll stay 2.0L.

StorminMatt

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 31flavorscivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The 1.8 turbo makes 180 HP, and the GSR 1.8 all MOTOR makes 170 &gt;&lt;. The honda is going to win here.</TD></TR></TABLE>

We're talking allmotor vs allmotor here. In other words, we are talking about the VW 1.8 16v. Not the 1.8 turbo. Stock power on that motor is similar to the LS, but without all the available mods. Simply put, I don't see how a 1.8 16v is even going to stand a chance against a GSR CRX.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by j-spec_cc2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok guys, sorry to bother you again about the situation.

i called my boy today while i was at work (gotta love gettin paid to sit and do nothing). he said that he talked to one of his other close friends (who is also into VW) and he is working on a 2.0L 16V setup. so he asked me if i wouldn't mind doing the same thing.

now, most likely, i will go ahead and do this cause i like competition. i would most likely build a CRVTEC w/ a B20 block and a B16 head. from what i've heard, the b18c head is too tall for the hood on the B20 block in a CRX.

now, i'm wondering, is it possible to still run B series pistons in the B20 block? i'm not asking this question tryin to be a noob, but i've researched the B20 block before and i've read somewhere that there are no aftermarket pistons for it.

also, if i do decide to do this setup, do you think running 12.6:1 c/r would be too high? i did the calculations (well, actually http://www.c-speedracing.com/h...c.php did the calculations for me) and using PCT (B16B) pistons on this setup would give me that c/r. is that too high or should i stick w/ the JDM p30 pistons (B16A) that would give me a 12.1:1 c/r.

i'm so confused. i enjoy the fun that we're gonna have in this competition, but naturally, I WANNA WIN!!!!!!!!!

thanks in advance for your help.

PS....i think we've also decided that we dont only have to use factory CAMS so anything goes just so long as it'll stay 2.0L. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Seriously, I think you are worrying too much here.

SETI20

Let alone the C5 type-R motor. That's rated anywhere between 200 and 215 depending on origin and year.

StorminMatt

The bottom line: four cylinder Volkswagen engines can't make good power without forced induction.

Professor15

lol you dont even need a 2.0L block, you can stay with the 1.8L and get some good compression with oem pistons, and you CANNOT use any 81mm B-series pistons in the b20 block. And the b18c head is not too tall for the b20 block. i say stick to a simple 1.8L set-up, cost effective and makes great powa.

crx_88_si

if Money is NO object, I mean u wanna do $10k+ then k20