turbocharging vs supercharging
09-30-2002, 09:48 AM
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turbocharging vs supercharging
Interesting article by Oscar. Thought a few of you might like this:
By Oscar Jackson
My customers often ask what is the best way of making more horsepower in their Honda/Acura automobile. In fact, that is probably the "universal" question that I am asked most often at shows or events. Well, the answer is quite simple: bolt on a supercharger or turbocharger system - they really are the "Best Bang for the Buck". Let me explain why. In this era of high RPM engines with VTEC variable valve control, improving top end horsepower is never easy. Honda has already done a marvelous job of creating dependable engines with incredible horsepower ratings. The Honda engines already have tremendously efficient exhaust manifolds with Tri-Y (4-2-1) tuning. Simply stated, the #1 and #4 cylinders' exhaust are paired together into one outlet and the #2 and #3 cylinders' exhaust are paired together into another outlet. Thus the 4 into 2 (4-2) part of the equation. Then, the #1 and #4 pairings and the #2 and #3 pairing are merged or paired into one final outlet. Thus, the 2-1 (2-1) part of the equation. This design produces really effective exhaust scavenging. So, trying to gain much power from removing the already efficient exhaust manifold and replacing it with a "Tuned Header" rarely shows much improvement in power by itself.
The same can be said for the intake system and the exhaust muffler. No stock engine can yield the type of horsepower numbers that the Honda/ Acura engines register without a good intake and exhaust muffler. So changing the intake or the exhaust muffler by itself usually shows a minimal gain in performance and a maximum gain in sound. This is not to say that combining a good intake system, header, and muffler won't make power. Quite the contrary. In fact, in dyno tests indicate the the average horsepower increase on a Honda/Acura automobile from a intake, header and muffler is 11 horsepower. Now, 11 horsepower is a reasonable gain. But the gain is generally at or near the maximum RPM of the engine, or redline. The down side is that while most of us spend very little time actually at redline, we do spend a lot of time accelerating TO maximum RPM. The product that does this work is called "Torque". And the increase in "Torque" with an intake, header and muffler is, on average, 2%. The average price of a good Intake, Header, Exhaust muffler is again, on average, $1100. That works out to about $100 per horsepower. On the other hand, similar tests of various supercharged and turbocharged Honda/Acura automobiles show, on average, a gain of 60 hp! More importantly, they gain a whopping 40% in torque from idle to maximum RPM - not just at redline. Supercharger or turbocharger systems sell for an average price of $3000, which works out to about $50 per horsepower! And you get a car that's a lot more fun to drive. At this point I guess I don't need to calculate the cost comparison of the differences in torque! But as your Mother always told you, "There is no free ride in life". And your mother was right. Supercharged or Turbocharged vehicle have their own special requirements, such as always, always using premium fuel. I realize that premium fuel is required on most of the higher output VTEC engines, but not in the base engines that come in the Civic EX, DX, and LX models. So, installing a Supercharger or Turbocharger on these models would dictate a change in the quality of fuel used. The quality of the oil you use is important also. In most stock Honda/Acura engines they have around 4 quarts of oil to lubricate and cool the internal parts of the engine. This is quite acceptable when you are dealing with stock horsepower. But when you make a 30-40% gain in power, there is an additional gain in internal heat. This breaks down normal oils quite quickly. Consequently, Supercharged or Turbocharged cars require higher quality oils, more frequent oil changes, and for the best of insurance, add-on oil coolers. Turbochargers get their drive or energy from the exhaust system. The turbine portion of the turbocharger is mounted in the exhaust stream as close to the exhaust port as possible. To do this, the high quality, fine tuned factory exhaust manifold must be removed (or header if your vehicle is so equipped). A shorter, less highly tuned manifold must be installed so the turbo has a proper mounting location close to the exhaust port. So, in essence, some of the great original Honda/Acura horsepower is lost to the poor exhaust tuning of the turbo and its manifold. But the trade-off is great amounts of boost with very little turbo lag if the system has a properly sized turbocharger.
Superchargers get their drive from the accessory belts. The drive belt turns the supercharger, which in turn creates boost. Superchargers are like mounting another air conditioning compressor in the engine compartment. The big difference is that they don't have to compress a gas into a liquid. They only have to move air. Superchargers have very little parasitic drag at low to mid speed as they aren't turning much RPM and aren't creating boost. Also, the original high quality, fine tuned factory exhaust manifold doesn't have to be removed in supercharged applications either. Consequently all the original Honda/Acura horsepower remains. But the energy at high RPM, peak boost conditions uses up horsepower turning the belt and the supercharger. As you can see, Mom was right again. "There is no free ride in life". There is a trade off with either a Supercharger or Turbocharger. In a nutshell, most Superchargers give you instant throttle response with no "turbo lag". I say "most" Superchargers. The Vortech Supercharger system for the Civic Si and the Integra GSR has a significantly large compressor. Because it is so large, the supercharger itself has to be driven slowly so as to not overboost the engine. What this translates to is a very poor low speed boost "Map", or "Turbo lag". But it more than makes up for it above 6,000 rpm. In fact, a Vortech powered Civic Si went over 190 mph at the Bonneville Salt Flats in the summer of 2001. But you do have to get above 6,000 rpm to enjoy the power.
Turbochargers on the other hand depend on high load and RPM conditions to create boost. So boost is almost non-existent in first gear. Plus, at any time you are at cruise speed and lay into the throttle, there is a "lag" until the Turbocharger has built up enough internal RPM to create boost. But, everyday the Turbo manufacturers are creating newer turbochargers with better throttle response. The real trick to Turbocharging is matching the Turbo and manifold to its intended application. Properly done, Turbocharged engines today can run very smooth with minimal "Turbo lag". As a comparison we have some graphs with comparisons of some, but not all, of our industries best Supercharger and Turbocharger manufacturers. These graphs show numerically and graphically some of the radical differences between the different products. And yet, they also show how equal they are when you compare the final "Average" horsepower and torque. The reason that the "Average" is so important is something called "Area Under the Curve". If you shaded in all of the area that is "Under" the Horsepower line and then calculated the amount of "square inches" that were shaded in, that would give you the "Area Under the Curve". We can also do this by just adding up all of the Horsepower points on the graph and divide them by the total.
You will notice with interest how the Vortech supercharged Civic Si has over 70 more horsepower than the Jackson Racing Supercharged Civic Si. But the averages don't look as dramatic. The Vortech powered Civic had an average horsepower of 139 versus the Jackson Racing powered Civic Si at 132 horsepower. Now, let's look at the average torque. Remember that we talked earlier about torque being the product that actually pushes our car down the road. The Jackson Racing powered Civic Si had 136 ft lbs average torque. The Vortech powered Civic Si had only 132! This proves the area 'under the curve' is very important. In the final analysis, both the Jackson Racing Civic Si and the Vortech Civic Si had nearly identical times and MPH in the quarter mile. Which brings up a good point. If you decide to Supercharge or Turbocharge your Honda/Acura vehicle, be sure to match the system that best suites your needs. If you want to do top speed runs at the Bonneville Salt Flats, the Vortech system has proven itself very capable of huge amounts of horsepower with its oversized compressor. On the other hand, if you are using your car as a daily driver, the lack of low speed power in the Vortech system might not be what you want. In the next graph we have a comparison of the Greddy Turbo system with intercooler to the Jackson Racing supercharger system for the Acura Integra. The Greddy system is a very well engineered. The Turbocharger itself is very well "Mapped" for the Integra engine. If you look at the Horsepower graph you will see the Jackson Racing supercharger system makes instant boost with an instant rise in horsepower and torque. But the Greddy turbo systems "turbo lag" is gone by 3700 rpm and goes to full boost surpassing the Jackson Racing superchargers' linear horsepower and torque curve. The Greddy turbo system continues to produce usable power to redline only giving in to the Jackson Racing supercharger after the turbo runs out of useable efficiency above 7,500 rpm. In this analysis, you will find that the well "Mapped" Greddy turbo system had over 3 more average horsepower than the Jackson Racing supercharger. But the average torque readings were nearly identical. And, when tested at the drag strip they were both within 1 tenth of a second with nearly identical MPH readings. As you can see, there are a lot of choices for the Honda/Acura enthusiast when it comes to Supercharging or Turbocharging. The real choice is up to you.
Visit some of these Supercharger or Turbocharger manufacturers for more information on fitment and availability for your year, make and model.
Apex Integration, Inc., http://www.apexi-usa.com
Greddy Performance http://www.greddy.com
HKS USA http://www.hksusa.com
Jackson Racing http://www.jacksonracing.com
Vortech Engineering http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com
By Oscar Jackson
My customers often ask what is the best way of making more horsepower in their Honda/Acura automobile. In fact, that is probably the "universal" question that I am asked most often at shows or events. Well, the answer is quite simple: bolt on a supercharger or turbocharger system - they really are the "Best Bang for the Buck". Let me explain why. In this era of high RPM engines with VTEC variable valve control, improving top end horsepower is never easy. Honda has already done a marvelous job of creating dependable engines with incredible horsepower ratings. The Honda engines already have tremendously efficient exhaust manifolds with Tri-Y (4-2-1) tuning. Simply stated, the #1 and #4 cylinders' exhaust are paired together into one outlet and the #2 and #3 cylinders' exhaust are paired together into another outlet. Thus the 4 into 2 (4-2) part of the equation. Then, the #1 and #4 pairings and the #2 and #3 pairing are merged or paired into one final outlet. Thus, the 2-1 (2-1) part of the equation. This design produces really effective exhaust scavenging. So, trying to gain much power from removing the already efficient exhaust manifold and replacing it with a "Tuned Header" rarely shows much improvement in power by itself.
The same can be said for the intake system and the exhaust muffler. No stock engine can yield the type of horsepower numbers that the Honda/ Acura engines register without a good intake and exhaust muffler. So changing the intake or the exhaust muffler by itself usually shows a minimal gain in performance and a maximum gain in sound. This is not to say that combining a good intake system, header, and muffler won't make power. Quite the contrary. In fact, in dyno tests indicate the the average horsepower increase on a Honda/Acura automobile from a intake, header and muffler is 11 horsepower. Now, 11 horsepower is a reasonable gain. But the gain is generally at or near the maximum RPM of the engine, or redline. The down side is that while most of us spend very little time actually at redline, we do spend a lot of time accelerating TO maximum RPM. The product that does this work is called "Torque". And the increase in "Torque" with an intake, header and muffler is, on average, 2%. The average price of a good Intake, Header, Exhaust muffler is again, on average, $1100. That works out to about $100 per horsepower. On the other hand, similar tests of various supercharged and turbocharged Honda/Acura automobiles show, on average, a gain of 60 hp! More importantly, they gain a whopping 40% in torque from idle to maximum RPM - not just at redline. Supercharger or turbocharger systems sell for an average price of $3000, which works out to about $50 per horsepower! And you get a car that's a lot more fun to drive. At this point I guess I don't need to calculate the cost comparison of the differences in torque! But as your Mother always told you, "There is no free ride in life". And your mother was right. Supercharged or Turbocharged vehicle have their own special requirements, such as always, always using premium fuel. I realize that premium fuel is required on most of the higher output VTEC engines, but not in the base engines that come in the Civic EX, DX, and LX models. So, installing a Supercharger or Turbocharger on these models would dictate a change in the quality of fuel used. The quality of the oil you use is important also. In most stock Honda/Acura engines they have around 4 quarts of oil to lubricate and cool the internal parts of the engine. This is quite acceptable when you are dealing with stock horsepower. But when you make a 30-40% gain in power, there is an additional gain in internal heat. This breaks down normal oils quite quickly. Consequently, Supercharged or Turbocharged cars require higher quality oils, more frequent oil changes, and for the best of insurance, add-on oil coolers. Turbochargers get their drive or energy from the exhaust system. The turbine portion of the turbocharger is mounted in the exhaust stream as close to the exhaust port as possible. To do this, the high quality, fine tuned factory exhaust manifold must be removed (or header if your vehicle is so equipped). A shorter, less highly tuned manifold must be installed so the turbo has a proper mounting location close to the exhaust port. So, in essence, some of the great original Honda/Acura horsepower is lost to the poor exhaust tuning of the turbo and its manifold. But the trade-off is great amounts of boost with very little turbo lag if the system has a properly sized turbocharger.
Superchargers get their drive from the accessory belts. The drive belt turns the supercharger, which in turn creates boost. Superchargers are like mounting another air conditioning compressor in the engine compartment. The big difference is that they don't have to compress a gas into a liquid. They only have to move air. Superchargers have very little parasitic drag at low to mid speed as they aren't turning much RPM and aren't creating boost. Also, the original high quality, fine tuned factory exhaust manifold doesn't have to be removed in supercharged applications either. Consequently all the original Honda/Acura horsepower remains. But the energy at high RPM, peak boost conditions uses up horsepower turning the belt and the supercharger. As you can see, Mom was right again. "There is no free ride in life". There is a trade off with either a Supercharger or Turbocharger. In a nutshell, most Superchargers give you instant throttle response with no "turbo lag". I say "most" Superchargers. The Vortech Supercharger system for the Civic Si and the Integra GSR has a significantly large compressor. Because it is so large, the supercharger itself has to be driven slowly so as to not overboost the engine. What this translates to is a very poor low speed boost "Map", or "Turbo lag". But it more than makes up for it above 6,000 rpm. In fact, a Vortech powered Civic Si went over 190 mph at the Bonneville Salt Flats in the summer of 2001. But you do have to get above 6,000 rpm to enjoy the power.
Turbochargers on the other hand depend on high load and RPM conditions to create boost. So boost is almost non-existent in first gear. Plus, at any time you are at cruise speed and lay into the throttle, there is a "lag" until the Turbocharger has built up enough internal RPM to create boost. But, everyday the Turbo manufacturers are creating newer turbochargers with better throttle response. The real trick to Turbocharging is matching the Turbo and manifold to its intended application. Properly done, Turbocharged engines today can run very smooth with minimal "Turbo lag". As a comparison we have some graphs with comparisons of some, but not all, of our industries best Supercharger and Turbocharger manufacturers. These graphs show numerically and graphically some of the radical differences between the different products. And yet, they also show how equal they are when you compare the final "Average" horsepower and torque. The reason that the "Average" is so important is something called "Area Under the Curve". If you shaded in all of the area that is "Under" the Horsepower line and then calculated the amount of "square inches" that were shaded in, that would give you the "Area Under the Curve". We can also do this by just adding up all of the Horsepower points on the graph and divide them by the total.
You will notice with interest how the Vortech supercharged Civic Si has over 70 more horsepower than the Jackson Racing Supercharged Civic Si. But the averages don't look as dramatic. The Vortech powered Civic had an average horsepower of 139 versus the Jackson Racing powered Civic Si at 132 horsepower. Now, let's look at the average torque. Remember that we talked earlier about torque being the product that actually pushes our car down the road. The Jackson Racing powered Civic Si had 136 ft lbs average torque. The Vortech powered Civic Si had only 132! This proves the area 'under the curve' is very important. In the final analysis, both the Jackson Racing Civic Si and the Vortech Civic Si had nearly identical times and MPH in the quarter mile. Which brings up a good point. If you decide to Supercharge or Turbocharge your Honda/Acura vehicle, be sure to match the system that best suites your needs. If you want to do top speed runs at the Bonneville Salt Flats, the Vortech system has proven itself very capable of huge amounts of horsepower with its oversized compressor. On the other hand, if you are using your car as a daily driver, the lack of low speed power in the Vortech system might not be what you want. In the next graph we have a comparison of the Greddy Turbo system with intercooler to the Jackson Racing supercharger system for the Acura Integra. The Greddy system is a very well engineered. The Turbocharger itself is very well "Mapped" for the Integra engine. If you look at the Horsepower graph you will see the Jackson Racing supercharger system makes instant boost with an instant rise in horsepower and torque. But the Greddy turbo systems "turbo lag" is gone by 3700 rpm and goes to full boost surpassing the Jackson Racing superchargers' linear horsepower and torque curve. The Greddy turbo system continues to produce usable power to redline only giving in to the Jackson Racing supercharger after the turbo runs out of useable efficiency above 7,500 rpm. In this analysis, you will find that the well "Mapped" Greddy turbo system had over 3 more average horsepower than the Jackson Racing supercharger. But the average torque readings were nearly identical. And, when tested at the drag strip they were both within 1 tenth of a second with nearly identical MPH readings. As you can see, there are a lot of choices for the Honda/Acura enthusiast when it comes to Supercharging or Turbocharging. The real choice is up to you.
Visit some of these Supercharger or Turbocharger manufacturers for more information on fitment and availability for your year, make and model.
Apex Integration, Inc., http://www.apexi-usa.com
Greddy Performance http://www.greddy.com
HKS USA http://www.hksusa.com
Jackson Racing http://www.jacksonracing.com
Vortech Engineering http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com
09-30-2002, 10:58 AM
#4
Honda-Tech Member
Re: turbocharging vs supercharging (SiDESLiDE240)
Excellent post...thanks voodoo 
I have a question. The turbo that was found on the Eclipse, would it be able to make power all the way to 8k rpm? I have been tossing around the idea of a home-made turbo kit with minimal lag and good amounts of torque for daily driving. Nothing crazy.
I have a question. The turbo that was found on the Eclipse, would it be able to make power all the way to 8k rpm? I have been tossing around the idea of a home-made turbo kit with minimal lag and good amounts of torque for daily driving. Nothing crazy.
09-30-2002, 11:35 AM
#5
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Re: turbocharging vs supercharging (WAFFLES)
A T25 turbo (That comes on 94-99 Eclipse will probably spool up really early and stop making power around 7000 rpm or so. I believe its response is great but its kinda lacking in the power dept up high.
A straight T3 would be closest to the best of both worlds (This is what I have found thru some of the research I have done while deciding if I should turbo my hatch.
A straight T3 would be closest to the best of both worlds (This is what I have found thru some of the research I have done while deciding if I should turbo my hatch.
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11-08-2002, 10:31 PM
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Re: turbocharging vs supercharging (Emerica)
best thread ive seen in a whilein conclusion, the article was pointing out that both applications had a difference in power but at different RPMS, in respect that both produced the same amount of gains. but what are the cost differences and which would cost less in the long run due to the reliability of having a turbo charged vs. a supercharged daily driver?
11-09-2002, 06:22 AM
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Re: turbocharging vs supercharging (vtecvoodoo)
Cliff notes:
Seems to be the most important part.
But the average torque readings were nearly identical. And, when tested at the drag strip they were both within 1 tenth of a second with nearly identical MPH readings. As you can see, there are a lot of choices for the Honda/Acura enthusiast when it comes to Supercharging or Turbocharging. The real choice is up to you.
11-09-2002, 06:52 AM
#15
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Re: turbocharging vs supercharging (E Prep)
there are a lot of choices for the Honda/Acura enthusiast when it comes to Supercharging or Turbocharging. The real choice is up to you.
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