madnad

Car: 1999 Civic HX automatic (not modified).
Problem: p0420 code with stuttering and stalling. Cleared that code and now getting p1399, p0300 - p0304 without p0420 but continues to stall.
Question: Will replacing the cat converter resolve the issue? I have vetted other components involved in the missfire codes as I will describe in background below.

Background: Planning to replace my cat converter (Walker Manifold Converter - Ultra Part No 16096) and oxygen sensors (Denso direct fit) for second time in six months. Acquired the car which was poorly maintained in Jun 2014. It had poor idle, missfire issues and generally unhappy. Did a tune up (air filter, NGK plugs, generic wires, rotor and cap) and topped off engine oil, coolant and transmission fluid. Replaced the fuel filter. Cleaned out EGR passages and in the process broke the head of one of the fasteners - jerry rigged with RTV and it seemed to hold its own with no air leaks on spray down tests. Continued to have issues, and found a crack in the exhaust manifold (also had intermittent p0420). Replaced the manifold and converter and O2 sensors - Aug 2014. Still no joy . Went to work on the distributor, which had an aged O-ring, replaced the distributor with a brand new one. Idle issues solved but missfire and blinking CEL (p1399 and p0300 - p0304) continue to plague me. I continued to drive out of necessity and keeping my fingers crossed that the cat converter would not fry for about four months. About three weeks ago, decided to work on the intake side of the engine and found a clogged injector #1, which was easily fixed with just cleaning out the microfilter. Ran like a dream for about a week or so and then the dreaded p0420 returned . Heard some rattling intermittently during the drives and thought the heat shield is loose (was not). Quickly did a lacquer thinner to the gas tank treatment (1 gallon in 10) and cleared the code using Torque app. Now it has continued to get worse with zero driveability. Today couldn't drive up the driveway in to the garage.
So far I have checked the spark plugs again for any oil residues (none), the plugs and wire are fairly new, brand new distributor. Did a balance test and all injectors are responding appropriately. On Torque the downstream Oxygen sensors reading is trailing with that of upstream - again confirming a defective converter.
I will change out the converter but don't want to blow this one again. That is why I am putting this out there for any suggestions, recommendations and insights. Could cleaning out injector#1 accelerated the deterioration of the cat converter? And do I need to continue to be worried after changing out the converter.
This forum has been an immense help in the last several months as I went about resuscitating this relic and here's a big shout out and .
Hope to hear something soon. And thank you in advance for your patience to read through my rather lengthy post.

Former User

Post a picture showing the location of the broken bolt.

Give more details about how you cleaned the EGR chamber and passageways. Did you take any pictures? Did you also clean the EGR valve?

Have you measured the fuel pressure and tested the FPR?

madnad

Thanks for your quick response.
Unfortunately I don't think I took a picture. The broken bolt is one on the right of the vehicle on the dash side (away from the engine - so I can evaluate a leak in that area easily with a spray. I cleaned EGR passages with either brake cleaner or throttle body cleaner (it's been a while).
Haven't cleaned the EGR valve aggresively but sprayed it down with a cleaner. It seemed to operate fine (to suction).
Haven't measured the fuel pressures yet, but at the time when I cleaned out the injector, there was a sizeable fuel spill from the fuel rail. (Will take precautions in future when handling the injector rail.)
So what do you suggest I do with the EGR valve? I could remove it once more and take a look, I suppose.
edit: am looking up how to check the FPR.
Plan of action: clean out egr again (suppose it can get clogged again due to bad convertor), check valve, check fuel pressure and FPR. Rectify any issues, then new cat. More to come.

madnad

Update: Cleaned out the EGR valve, which was not too bad, the pintle moved freely upon applying vacuum. Fuel pressure was good when evaluated with the crude and dangerous EricTheCarGuy method. FSR did not show any fuel leaks. The O2 sensors were black with soot. No rattling on shakeing the cat converter and the elements inside seems okay through the limited view of the distal opening. Broke the bolt head while removing the old converter (becoming a bad habit with me, luckily this was not one on the engine block, but the exhaust end), so the replacement install has been delayed.
I am not too optimistic that replacing the cat will solve my problem but I can only try.

Former User

Are you replacing the cat due to P0420? If so, this is very unwise until you solve the misfire code issue as the cat will again be killed.

madnad

Thanks RonJ!!
Yes, there was a P0420 code soon after I fixed the missfire situation (clogged injector #1), but I was driving for almost 4 months with flashing CEL until I figured the issue. Once that was resolved, two weeks later p0420 came on --> deleted code + lacquer thinner --> then started to have the p1399, p0300-p0304 but p420 did not show up.

I just installed the new cat with new spark plugs and O2 sensor, but car dies out within the minute - sputtering and petering out. Old spark plug #1 was wet (smelled like gas) and extra black - so FPR seems like a likely suspect.
I am going to try the fuel line troubleshooting. Will have to purchase the fuel pressure adapter. I will get back with updates on the fuel check.

madnad

While waiting on pressure gauge to do the fuel line pressures, I wanted to get the FPR so that I don't have to wait. I suspect it will need to be replaced as there is no serviceable part in it and the fuel filter was changed recently.
Since it is little expensive and there are a lot of aftermarket variations, I wanted some suggestions to decide which one would work best on my 99 Civic HX (CVT).

madnad

Fuel pressure readings:[Got the pressure gauges from Autozone Lend a Tool program - for those who don't know as myself]
with vacuum hose disconnected: 40 - 42 psi
with vacuum hose connection: 38 - 40 psi
I did with the engine crank and without (key switch to on) with similar readings.


Per posted guidelines from Honda, FPR needs to be replaced. Do you agree? The numbers are kind of close by hence I would like confirmation before purchasing something that is little expensive. Thanks.

I have attached the pictures of the EGR valve which responds smoothly to applied suction. And a picture of the EGR passage with the broken nut (it's just held in place with rtv) per RonJ request.

Former User

The fuel pressure tests with and without the FPR hose connected are done with the warm engine idling. Is that what you did?

The broken bolt on the EGR chamber could be causing the misfire problem. Extract the broken bolt, buy a new one, and torque all chamber bolts to spec with a torque wrench. Did you already buy a new gasket for the chamber?

madnad

The fpr pressure check was on a cold engine because I can't keep the car running.
The bolt is beyond redemption as I tried to extract the bolt and broke the extractor inside it (talk about streak of bad luck). Was able to drive with rtv in place. But I am not ruling out persistent leak.
Also, can I remove the new cat so that I don't burn it while I work through the start/ stall issue? I should have waited but that ship is now sailed.

madnad

I also tried the clear flood mode start but didn't go far seems like.

Former User

That's fine. Did you pinch the disconnected hose to prevent a vacuum leak? If so, the fuel pressure is out of spec with the hose connected. HOWEVER, ignore this test result until you replace the EGR chamber bolt.

Remove the EGR chamber and post clear pictures zoomed in on the broken bolt in the IM. You may need to drill out the broken bolt.

Definitely remove the new cat and reinstall the old one until you have fixed the EGR chamber and eliminated the misfiring and the associated CEL codes.

madnad

I returned the old cat (it was still under warranty). And the stock one has confirmed crack in the manifold, so cannot use that.
I will try to get the picture of the broken bolt on EGR. I had tried to drill it out and use an extactor. During that process, I broke the extractor itself in the drilled hold. So I am not very hopeful to do any better other than replace the intake manifold.
Also, I was not able to find a new gasket for the EGR passages the last time I was working on it. Do you have any suggestions?
N

madnad

[QUOTE=RonJ@HT;50150022]That's fine. Did you pinch the disconnected hose to prevent a vacuum leak? If so, the fuel pressure is out of spec with the hose connected. HOWEVER, ignore this test result until you replace the EGR chamber bolt.

Yes, I did pinch the fuel pressure vacuum.

I will take down the EGR passages and take a look.

madnad

Pictures of EGR

I will be cleaning it out and since I don't have any other option at present use RTV and keep my fingers crossed.

Former User

The passageways in the top of the EGR chamber are heavily clogged with carbon (bad), although your picture may have been taken prior to cleaning.

Remove the IM and get quotes from shops about removing the broken bolt. Otherwise, start scouting for Civic HXs in local junk yards or post a WTB ad in the FS/WTB sticky or the Marketplace.

Former User

Honda Automotive Parts

$8 for gasket at the Honda dealer.

$250 for new IM.

madnad

Thanks for that link.

Former User

The price I mentioned is for the IM gasket (#9). The EGR chamber gasket (#12) is $25.

If the last picture shows the current state of the EGR chamber, then the heavy carbon clogging is surely contributing to the misfire problem.

Get a torque wrench so you don't snap any more bolts. The chamber bolts only require 8.7 ft-lbs of torque.

madnad

These are some pictures after the cleaning EGR passages.
Thanks for suggesting some options for the broken bolt. I will pursue those.

lostforawhile

if you broke an extractor off in the broken bolt, start looking for a used maniifold, that SOB is never coming out. I hate those things, they are as hard as a tap, all they do is create more work and ruin parts when they break, you can search for a company that does tap disintegration , but you will still have to take off the manifold, disassemble everything off of it and ship it to them. it might be cheaper to just find a used one

madnad

Yep, I am going to look for another manifold. Thinking of going for a new one from the dealer rather than a used one cos I will never know if another problem may creep up. Also, the IM would include new EGR gasket and EGR passages since it is part of the manifold. Right?
Anyway, after cleaning out the EGR, I was able to keep the car running for some time, enough to warm it to operating temp. The fuel pressure gauge was still attached and it did not go past 40 psi. Is that enough or I should look for a FPR as well?

lostforawhile

nothing wrong with a used manifold as long as it's not warped

madnad

I couldn't resist any longer. Posting pics of intake manifold I found on eBay. Comes with fuel rail and injectors. And of course an intact EGR passage.
Hopefully, this will solve the problem. It will be couple of weeks before it gets here but I had to share.

madnad

So, the IM arrived today, earlier than it was stated to be. I am happy.
However, I was comparing the two IM and noted a variation and wanted to check with you all to make sure it will work for me. The new (used) IM is labeled P2J HF 3while the native IM is P2J HF2. Also it has an addition port (arrow) which I don't have (see picture) .
Wanted to check before I take it apart and find out that it will not work. Also, I cleaned out the EGR good this time (on the new IM).
PS:
I noticed my pictures are huge. Is there a way to post it as a link, so that it doesn't clutter the topic?