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Old 12-07-2006, 04:46 PM   #1
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Default Neccessary to reBORE or just a hone - severe ring leakage

So my piston rings are bad, 10 10 15 and 30 are my leakage % based on numerous leak down test. and i burn about 2 quarts a week.
so my question to you is...

Is it neccessary to buy 0.25 overbore and get the pistons matched to bore...or would stock pistons seat properly with new rings and rehone?


What is the difference between deglazing with a dingleberry and rehoning with a stone
What is this "glaze"


What is the name of the tool that measures bore, where can it be bought.
What are the spec tollerances for a b16a2


What is lapping.
How do i know if piston rings are lapped, and how do i lap them.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neof69
Yeah, it is much easier to just suck it up and pull the engine, but i know somebody who removed the Pistons while in the car. But its like going around your azzhole to get to your elbow.
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Old 12-07-2006, 05:52 PM   #2
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Default Re: Neccessary to reBORE or just a hone - severe ring leakage (drumminforev)

From the sounds of the oil consumption alone I would overbore by .25mm (.010" thou) after which it would be re-honed. You'll have a new engine essentially and won't have to worry about any of the questions you asked.
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:08 AM   #3
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Default Re: Neccessary to reBORE or just a hone - severe ring leakage (00Red_SiR)

Ok, i would still like the answers for the knowledge.
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This is what happens when you use 80 MEGA GALLONS OF SEAFOAM
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Why I'm an A/C GANGSTA
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1665946

Quote:
Originally Posted by neof69
Yeah, it is much easier to just suck it up and pull the engine, but i know somebody who removed the Pistons while in the car. But its like going around your azzhole to get to your elbow.
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Old 12-09-2006, 07:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: Neccessary to reBORE or just a hone - severe ring leakage (drumminforev)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumminforev
So my piston rings are bad, 10 10 15 and 30 are my leakage % based on numerous leak down test. and i burn about 2 quarts a week.
so my question to you is...
You don't mention what the mileage is on your engine but anything that eats, (doesn't leak) 2 quarts of oil a week, is in serious need of a rebuild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumminforev
Is it neccessary to buy 0.25 overbore and get the pistons matched to bore...or would stock pistons seat properly with new rings and re-hone?
Again, if I was to guess, I'd say your engine is high mileage. If your rings are that bad that it's eating 2 quarts of oil a week, I would also be willing to bet that the cylinder walls are worn/scratched enough that you'll require an over bore to get the pistons/rings to seal properly. I'm sure if you simply re-honed/deglazed the cylinders and put the old pistons back in with new rings, it would work and would show decent numbers initially. It is over time that the engine performance would fall and oil consumption would again be a problem. How much time? hard to predict without actually seeing how bad the engine is for myself. In my own personal experience, I've seen the rings not seat at all right off the bat and get blow-by, other times I've seen them seat relatively well for about a year before the problems start to return. This is why I said to just have the engine bored and put in oversize pistons/rings...do it right once and then never have to worry about it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumminforev
What is the difference between deglazing with a dingleberry and re-honing with a stone
What is this "glaze"
ok, first of all, "glazing" is when the surface of the metal becomes "polished smooth" from all the friction. This happens to brake rotors and clutch flywheels all the time and it is why they should be resurfaced/deglazed before installing new brake pads or clutches. Just because a person can see the original factory "cross hatch scuffing/honing" doesn't mean that it doesn't need honing. You can still see the tread pattern on a tire that's 80% worn but it doesn't mean it's going to grip like it's supposed to. When the metal is glazed it doesn't create proper friction with the new surface that is going to be in contact with it and therefore it doesn't "wear in" together properly. Try thinking of it like putting your "brand new" feet into someone else's shoes...they'll eventually adjust to YOUR feet but never as well as a new pair of shoes would.

As for the dingleberry vs. using a stone hone, I'll have to give you my personal opinion on the two. To me, the dingleberry is ok to use as long as the cylinders are in good shape with no deep scratches, the engine isn't high mileage and the cylinders just need a little "scuff" before reinstalling the original pistons and/or new rings. To me it's similar in concept to using a 3M "scuff pad" on your brake rotors or flywheel before installing the new parts. It is far better than putting everything together this way than doing nothing at all. The stone hone does more actual honing in my mind as it deglazes the cylinders and will take out some light scratches in the cylinder walls and creates more of a factory "cross hatch" type of scuff into the bores. Again this should only be done if the cylinder bores are in good shape, if in doubt, have it checked and bored. Either way, you have to be careful using either of these methods since more damage can occur if you don't know what you're doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumminforev
What is the name of the tool that measures bore, where can it be bought.
What are the spec tolerances for a b16a2
It's morning and my brain isn't fully functional yet so I can't remember the specific names or specs other than the fact that most people use a dial gage and/or caliper combination to measure bore specs. These tools should be available at any automotive tool stores that sell specialized tools. As for the spec/tolerances, I would grab a Helms manual which would give you the specs and the names of the tools you are asking about as well as how to check the specs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumminforev
What is lapping.
How do i know if piston rings are lapped, and how do i lap them.
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking since "lapping" is somewhat of a general term and is mostly used to describe a process you do to intake and exhaust valves. The only thing I'm familiar with is gaping the rings. When you buy piston rings you usually buy them for a specific application and they come "pre-gaped" spec'd like spark plugs do. When you install the rings you are supposed to check the amount of gap to make sure it's within spec, if it's to tight you can file them until they meet spec. You can also buy "file fit" rings for a particular bore size which allows an engine builder to make the ring gap whatever spec they specifically want.
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: Neccessary to reBORE or just a hone - severe ring leakage (00Red_SiR)

thanks for the good info


the engine is not high miles, only 50k. i started burning oil with bad valve seals, which lead to driving with almost no oil, which lead to bad rings.


Would i be able to reliably check the bore roundness in my garage with tis 'dial gauge'?
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This is what happens when you use 80 MEGA GALLONS OF SEAFOAM
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1502112

Why I'm an A/C GANGSTA
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1665946

Quote:
Originally Posted by neof69
Yeah, it is much easier to just suck it up and pull the engine, but i know somebody who removed the Pistons while in the car. But its like going around your azzhole to get to your elbow.
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Old 12-11-2006, 06:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: Neccessary to reBORE or just a hone - severe ring leakage (drumminforev)

Yikes....I wonder if you'll have any hot spots on your crank or rod journals from low oil..

You would be able to reliably check the bore with the right tools, setup and used properly in your garage and your engine disassembled.
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Old 12-11-2006, 06:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: Neccessary to reBORE or just a hone - severe ring leakage (00Red_SiR)

I had a broken rings on my b16,when I tore it apart it the walls were scared a lil, put a good honing on it with some good rings and never had a problem since 30,000 miles and counting with No smoke
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:14 AM   #8
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Default Re: Neccessary to reBORE or just a hone - severe ring leakage (00Red_SiR)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Red_SiR
Yikes....I wonder if you'll have any hot spots on your crank or rod journals from low oil..

You would be able to reliably check the bore with the right tools, setup and used properly in your garage and your engine disassembled.
How to check for "hot spots"

and do you know the name of the tools i need to buy, IM getting ready to purchase everything. along with any other parts i should replace, but im not sure what those are
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This is what happens when you use 80 MEGA GALLONS OF SEAFOAM
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1502112

Why I'm an A/C GANGSTA
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1665946

Quote:
Originally Posted by neof69
Yeah, it is much easier to just suck it up and pull the engine, but i know somebody who removed the Pistons while in the car. But its like going around your azzhole to get to your elbow.
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: Neccessary to reBORE or just a hone - severe ring leakage (drumminforev)

Hot spots look like a stainless header after you run it...it changes color and turns blue etc....the metal on the journals will look discolored. As far as what the tool names are, I'm not sure...like I said they're some version of a caliper and dial gage, ask a machine shop how they do it and what the names of the tools are or buy the Helms manual to help tell you how to do the proceedure.
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Old 01-02-2007, 03:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: Neccessary to reBORE or just a hone - severe ring leakage (00Red_SiR)

I have some brand new rings...how do i check the ring gap to know if its proper (what is proper also)

I still havent decided if i want to buy oversized pistons and pay for a bore out or just use the stock size ctr pistons i have here with a deglaze.
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This is what happens when you use 80 MEGA GALLONS OF SEAFOAM
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1502112

Why I'm an A/C GANGSTA
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1665946

Quote:
Originally Posted by neof69
Yeah, it is much easier to just suck it up and pull the engine, but i know somebody who removed the Pistons while in the car. But its like going around your azzhole to get to your elbow.
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