Handling.
08-04-2015, 11:29 PM
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Handling.
Alright first and foremost I have searched this topic and found limited info on it.
Handlng and lateral G.
I get that our cars will understeer because theyre front wheel drive, which is okay because getting out of understeer is far easier than getting out of oversteer.
I read that an EM1 produces about .88 lateral G, how much of that is affected by LSD? If any?
How does LSD help prevent understeer?
Would bushings, coilovers, performance tires and struts get a EK civic into 1G+?
Also I read about raising the PSI in the back tires about 3psi more to keep the car from understeering, but wouldn't that make your car have less overall grip?
I'm not looking to do autocross OR speed all over the streets. But I do live in an area that has a mountain side by me that is absolutely empty a majority of the time and I do cruise through there and at times do a little spirited driving, I'd prefer not to fall off the mountain if at all possible.
I know the streets aren't the place to get to know the limits of my car and I have spun out going down a mountain, (young dumbf*cking teenager) but now I just want to have something thats gonna be good to me if I do get a wild hair up my as* and decide to go a tiny bit above the speed limit.
Handlng and lateral G.
I get that our cars will understeer because theyre front wheel drive, which is okay because getting out of understeer is far easier than getting out of oversteer.
I read that an EM1 produces about .88 lateral G, how much of that is affected by LSD? If any?
How does LSD help prevent understeer?
Would bushings, coilovers, performance tires and struts get a EK civic into 1G+?
Also I read about raising the PSI in the back tires about 3psi more to keep the car from understeering, but wouldn't that make your car have less overall grip?
I'm not looking to do autocross OR speed all over the streets. But I do live in an area that has a mountain side by me that is absolutely empty a majority of the time and I do cruise through there and at times do a little spirited driving, I'd prefer not to fall off the mountain if at all possible.
I know the streets aren't the place to get to know the limits of my car and I have spun out going down a mountain, (young dumbf*cking teenager) but now I just want to have something thats gonna be good to me if I do get a wild hair up my as* and decide to go a tiny bit above the speed limit.
08-05-2015, 01:02 AM
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Re: Handling.
Also what engine would be better in your car "NA" for the bends?
A b20 with some torque to put you in your seat?
Or a higher hp engine like b16 to gradually build hp?
A b20 with some torque to put you in your seat?
Or a higher hp engine like b16 to gradually build hp?
08-05-2015, 02:55 AM
#3
Re: Handling.
"How" does an LSD help prevent oversteer? Do you want the long, complicated answer, or do you just want someone to tell you, from experience, that it makes a huge difference?
Well, from experience, I will tell you that it makes a HUGE difference, both in understeer, as well as in general handling. My previous build, ~200 WHP, open differential, had to feather the throttle going through turns. A certain local turn, I knew by heart I could take at ~50 before the tires gave out and I went sideways. Another certain local turn, I knew I could only go about half throttle before going straight, instead of turning. New build, LSD in the transmission, in aforementioned turn 1, I take it at 65 and the car wants more. Second aforementioned turn, I go full throttle, and the car grips INTO the turn.
If you want the actual, technical, mechanical, "how does an LSD work", well, Google is a short click away.
Yes, upgraded suspension components will increase your skid pad. Will it get you past 1G? Fucked if I know, that's a whole bunch of testing that your average Honda owner doesn't have access to, and I doubt any professional with access to said testing would actually do it on a decades-old Civic. Step 1: Reduce body roll. Easily done with a lowered suspension, stiffer springs, and better shocks to support them. Step 2: Control the handling. Good bushings, and properly sized sway bars make a huge difference here as well. I absolutely love poly RTA bushings (biggest upgrade I've ever found in the bushings department), but if you aren't one for the added upkeep of poly bushings (cleaning and lubing semiannually, which isn't too bad - just do it with your semiannual wax), then Hardrace rubber bushings are a good choice, too. Sway bars are personal preference on exact size, but OEM SI or ITR sway bars are a good start.
Well, from experience, I will tell you that it makes a HUGE difference, both in understeer, as well as in general handling. My previous build, ~200 WHP, open differential, had to feather the throttle going through turns. A certain local turn, I knew by heart I could take at ~50 before the tires gave out and I went sideways. Another certain local turn, I knew I could only go about half throttle before going straight, instead of turning. New build, LSD in the transmission, in aforementioned turn 1, I take it at 65 and the car wants more. Second aforementioned turn, I go full throttle, and the car grips INTO the turn.
If you want the actual, technical, mechanical, "how does an LSD work", well, Google is a short click away.
Yes, upgraded suspension components will increase your skid pad. Will it get you past 1G? Fucked if I know, that's a whole bunch of testing that your average Honda owner doesn't have access to, and I doubt any professional with access to said testing would actually do it on a decades-old Civic. Step 1: Reduce body roll. Easily done with a lowered suspension, stiffer springs, and better shocks to support them. Step 2: Control the handling. Good bushings, and properly sized sway bars make a huge difference here as well. I absolutely love poly RTA bushings (biggest upgrade I've ever found in the bushings department), but if you aren't one for the added upkeep of poly bushings (cleaning and lubing semiannually, which isn't too bad - just do it with your semiannual wax), then Hardrace rubber bushings are a good choice, too. Sway bars are personal preference on exact size, but OEM SI or ITR sway bars are a good start.
08-05-2015, 10:36 AM
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Re: Handling.
Yes, upgraded suspension components will increase your skid pad. Will it get you past 1G? Fucked if I know, that's a whole bunch of testing that your average Honda owner doesn't have access to, and I doubt any professional with access to said testing would actually do it on a decades-old Civic. Step 1: Reduce body roll. Easily done with a lowered suspension, stiffer springs, and better shocks to support them. Step 2: Control the handling. Good bushings, and properly sized sway bars make a huge difference here as well. I absolutely love poly RTA bushings (biggest upgrade I've ever found in the bushings department), but if you aren't one for the added upkeep of poly bushings (cleaning and lubing semiannually, which isn't too bad - just do it with your semiannual wax), then Hardrace rubber bushings are a good choice, too. Sway bars are personal preference on exact size, but OEM SI or ITR sway bars are a good start.
No.
Step 1 always starts with Tires and Brakes.
Just by doing that you can go plenty fast in your mountain to get yourself in trouble.
Swaybars are a tuning device.
Sometimes people tune their car to have "more front grip" at the expense of reduced rear grip.
Go to the track to fill that empty void
08-05-2015, 07:26 PM
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08-05-2015, 07:31 PM
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Re: Handling.
"How" does an LSD help prevent oversteer? Do you want the long, complicated answer, or do you just want someone to tell you, from experience, that it makes a huge difference?
Well, from experience, I will tell you that it makes a HUGE difference, both in understeer, as well as in general handling. My previous build, ~200 WHP, open differential, had to feather the throttle going through turns. A certain local turn, I knew by heart I could take at ~50 before the tires gave out and I went sideways. Another certain local turn, I knew I could only go about half throttle before going straight, instead of turning. New build, LSD in the transmission, in aforementioned turn 1, I take it at 65 and the car wants more. Second aforementioned turn, I go full throttle, and the car grips INTO the turn.
If you want the actual, technical, mechanical, "how does an LSD work", well, Google is a short click away.
Yes, upgraded suspension components will increase your skid pad. Will it get you past 1G? Fucked if I know, that's a whole bunch of testing that your average Honda owner doesn't have access to, and I doubt any professional with access to said testing would actually do it on a decades-old Civic. Step 1: Reduce body roll. Easily done with a lowered suspension, stiffer springs, and better shocks to support them. Step 2: Control the handling. Good bushings, and properly sized sway bars make a huge difference here as well. I absolutely love poly RTA bushings (biggest upgrade I've ever found in the bushings department), but if you aren't one for the added upkeep of poly bushings (cleaning and lubing semiannually, which isn't too bad - just do it with your semiannual wax), then Hardrace rubber bushings are a good choice, too. Sway bars are personal preference on exact size, but OEM SI or ITR sway bars are a good start.
Well, from experience, I will tell you that it makes a HUGE difference, both in understeer, as well as in general handling. My previous build, ~200 WHP, open differential, had to feather the throttle going through turns. A certain local turn, I knew by heart I could take at ~50 before the tires gave out and I went sideways. Another certain local turn, I knew I could only go about half throttle before going straight, instead of turning. New build, LSD in the transmission, in aforementioned turn 1, I take it at 65 and the car wants more. Second aforementioned turn, I go full throttle, and the car grips INTO the turn.
If you want the actual, technical, mechanical, "how does an LSD work", well, Google is a short click away.
Yes, upgraded suspension components will increase your skid pad. Will it get you past 1G? Fucked if I know, that's a whole bunch of testing that your average Honda owner doesn't have access to, and I doubt any professional with access to said testing would actually do it on a decades-old Civic. Step 1: Reduce body roll. Easily done with a lowered suspension, stiffer springs, and better shocks to support them. Step 2: Control the handling. Good bushings, and properly sized sway bars make a huge difference here as well. I absolutely love poly RTA bushings (biggest upgrade I've ever found in the bushings department), but if you aren't one for the added upkeep of poly bushings (cleaning and lubing semiannually, which isn't too bad - just do it with your semiannual wax), then Hardrace rubber bushings are a good choice, too. Sway bars are personal preference on exact size, but OEM SI or ITR sway bars are a good start.
Also what's a more tarck geared setup? Something with torque with short shifts like a b20 and GSR? Or something high revving like a b16 with a jdm tranny? From my understanding the b16 even though less torque has a wider power band once the revs are up and flying, im not looking to drag race anyone at all. What would be the better setup for this application?
Last edited by Sprslow; 08-05-2015 at 07:49 PM.
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08-05-2015, 09:00 PM
#8
Re: Handling.
A single cam? No. You'll need an aftermarket LSD installed. You keep talking about B series engines, though, which has an OEM LSD available in the Integra Type R and Civic Type R.
The B16 has to be revved out to make power (160 BHP stock/new). Unless you're a purist, there's no reason to get one. The GSR motor (B18C1) is just better all around (170 BHP stock/new), and if you have the coin, an ITR motor (B18C5) is even better still (195 BHP stock/new). If money is no object, a built GSR or ITR with increased compression and an upgraded valvetrain can be absolutely brutal, getting you into the 250 BHP range pretty easily. It all comes down to how much you want to spend.
Also, "track geared" is a completely useless catch phrase. A car set up for drag will be different than a car set up for autocross, which will be different still from a car set up for road racing.
It's also worth mentioning that your thread feels a lot like wishlisting. Wishlist threads generally don't end very well. You seem to have at least half a head on your shoulders, so you've gotten by so far, but you might want to set up a solidly defined set of goals, budget, and plan, before this goes nowhere.
The B16 has to be revved out to make power (160 BHP stock/new). Unless you're a purist, there's no reason to get one. The GSR motor (B18C1) is just better all around (170 BHP stock/new), and if you have the coin, an ITR motor (B18C5) is even better still (195 BHP stock/new). If money is no object, a built GSR or ITR with increased compression and an upgraded valvetrain can be absolutely brutal, getting you into the 250 BHP range pretty easily. It all comes down to how much you want to spend.
Also, "track geared" is a completely useless catch phrase. A car set up for drag will be different than a car set up for autocross, which will be different still from a car set up for road racing.
It's also worth mentioning that your thread feels a lot like wishlisting. Wishlist threads generally don't end very well. You seem to have at least half a head on your shoulders, so you've gotten by so far, but you might want to set up a solidly defined set of goals, budget, and plan, before this goes nowhere.
08-06-2015, 12:26 AM
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08-06-2015, 12:32 AM
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Re: Handling.
A single cam? No. You'll need an aftermarket LSD installed. You keep talking about B series engines, though, which has an OEM LSD available in the Integra Type R and Civic Type R.
The B16 has to be revved out to make power (160 BHP stock/new). Unless you're a purist, there's no reason to get one. The GSR motor (B18C1) is just better all around (170 BHP stock/new), and if you have the coin, an ITR motor (B18C5) is even better still (195 BHP stock/new). If money is no object, a built GSR or ITR with increased compression and an upgraded valvetrain can be absolutely brutal, getting you into the 250 BHP range pretty easily. It all comes down to how much you want to spend.
Also, "track geared" is a completely useless catch phrase. A car set up for drag will be different than a car set up for autocross, which will be different still from a car set up for road racing.
It's also worth mentioning that your thread feels a lot like wishlisting. Wishlist threads generally don't end very well. You seem to have at least half a head on your shoulders, so you've gotten by so far, but you might want to set up a solidly defined set of goals, budget, and plan, before this goes nowhere.
The B16 has to be revved out to make power (160 BHP stock/new). Unless you're a purist, there's no reason to get one. The GSR motor (B18C1) is just better all around (170 BHP stock/new), and if you have the coin, an ITR motor (B18C5) is even better still (195 BHP stock/new). If money is no object, a built GSR or ITR with increased compression and an upgraded valvetrain can be absolutely brutal, getting you into the 250 BHP range pretty easily. It all comes down to how much you want to spend.
Also, "track geared" is a completely useless catch phrase. A car set up for drag will be different than a car set up for autocross, which will be different still from a car set up for road racing.
It's also worth mentioning that your thread feels a lot like wishlisting. Wishlist threads generally don't end very well. You seem to have at least half a head on your shoulders, so you've gotten by so far, but you might want to set up a solidly defined set of goals, budget, and plan, before this goes nowhere.
08-06-2015, 01:00 AM
#12
Re: Handling.
For a Civic (~2500 lbs), that's only ~160 BHP. That's nothing. That's barely over stock. A decently turbo'd D series will give you 200 BHP. A built LS could be done for your budget, if you shop carefully, and that'll get you 200 BHP.
Now that you've given us a budget, though, I can tell you you're gonna have to do a lot of shopping around to get what you want. Plan to put $1k of that into your suspension alone. Another $150-$200 for a set of quality brakes (Brembo blanks and Hawk HP+ fronts/HPS rears). that leaves you with ~$1800 to play with. If you want an LSD, you're shelling out $700 (plus rebuild costs, which will add another $150-$200 if you DIY) to buy one for a D series transmission, or about the same $900 for an LSD B series transmission, if you go for a swap. That brings you down to $900 to play with. You could find mounts, axles, intermediate shaft, stock ECU, and other miscellaneous necessities for ~$300. $600 left. That's second hand LS from Craigslist or a Facebook group money.
Don't bother selling your car to buy an SI. SI's in good shape are expensive, and you're still stuck dealing with that fuckawful B16. If you're really willing to sell your car, and have alternate transportation, sell it, buy a shell for under a grand, and that'll give you an extra thousand or two to play with. That comfortably puts you into built LS (my personal preference), or stock GSR range.
It can be done, but for now, stop worrying about the engine, or the transmission. Start with suspension, tires, and brakes. Koni shocks, Ground Control springs, Brembo blank discs, Hawk HP+/HPS pads, stock sway bars out of a junk yard, and some good summer tires. Those parts alone will make a massive difference in how your car drives, and can easily be done in a weekend.
Now that you've given us a budget, though, I can tell you you're gonna have to do a lot of shopping around to get what you want. Plan to put $1k of that into your suspension alone. Another $150-$200 for a set of quality brakes (Brembo blanks and Hawk HP+ fronts/HPS rears). that leaves you with ~$1800 to play with. If you want an LSD, you're shelling out $700 (plus rebuild costs, which will add another $150-$200 if you DIY) to buy one for a D series transmission, or about the same $900 for an LSD B series transmission, if you go for a swap. That brings you down to $900 to play with. You could find mounts, axles, intermediate shaft, stock ECU, and other miscellaneous necessities for ~$300. $600 left. That's second hand LS from Craigslist or a Facebook group money.
Don't bother selling your car to buy an SI. SI's in good shape are expensive, and you're still stuck dealing with that fuckawful B16. If you're really willing to sell your car, and have alternate transportation, sell it, buy a shell for under a grand, and that'll give you an extra thousand or two to play with. That comfortably puts you into built LS (my personal preference), or stock GSR range.
It can be done, but for now, stop worrying about the engine, or the transmission. Start with suspension, tires, and brakes. Koni shocks, Ground Control springs, Brembo blank discs, Hawk HP+/HPS pads, stock sway bars out of a junk yard, and some good summer tires. Those parts alone will make a massive difference in how your car drives, and can easily be done in a weekend.
08-06-2015, 02:57 AM
#13
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Re: Handling.
I have an SI and I love it, but if you're serious about racing I would recommend a hatchback due to the weight of the SI. I like having power windows and locks and sunroof, but the weight of the car is a negative compared to other civics.
08-06-2015, 03:59 AM
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Re: Handling.
No.
Step 1 always starts with Tires and Brakes.
Just by doing that you can go plenty fast in your mountain to get yourself in trouble.
Swaybars are a tuning device.
Sometimes people tune their car to have "more front grip" at the expense of reduced rear grip.
Go to the track to fill that empty void
Step 1 always starts with Tires and Brakes.
Just by doing that you can go plenty fast in your mountain to get yourself in trouble.
Swaybars are a tuning device.
Sometimes people tune their car to have "more front grip" at the expense of reduced rear grip.
Go to the track to fill that empty void
Step 1: Upgrade your tires (the #1 instant lateral G-enhancer upgrade).
Step 2: Realize that you are running out of brakes and upgrade lines/fluid/pads
Step 3: If you feel you are getting everything out of your setup, upgrade sway bars and perhaps a better spring/damper setup
Step 4: Go back to step 1
You can squeeze in an LSD in there somewhere, and I would worry about engines/horsepower much later (after iterating through the above steps a few times), unless you want to upgrade that gearbox at the same time you are upgrading the engine, then it may make more sense financially.
My personal experience is that an LSD will actually give you more understeer if you are running old or crap tires and/or are stabbing the throttle too aggressively. 2 front wheels spinning = 0 front grip. It will help you in a million other places, as stated before, though.
And yes, please do this at the track. It is a lot more fun and you get to meet people with interests that are similar to yours (and will most likely learn lots of stuff).
08-06-2015, 08:11 AM
#16
Re: Handling.
probably worth mentioning that it is on PIC selects, r compound tires, front traction bar, rear sway, redrilled prelude vtec rotors with itr calipers and cobalt xr3 pads, lots of other things. getting a grocery getter econobox to behave like a race car takes a lot.
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