Sonia's Driver

I need to do a flush of the A/C system ('93 del Sol) in preparation for the installation of the replacement components and charge of the system. I am going to rent the air powered flushing device from Autozone, and I need advice on which flushing fluid to use.

While looking on the internet, I have seen quite a range of $/gal on the different flush fluids, but very little information regarding what the flush fluids contain or are designed to do. The price seems to range from $25 - $150 per gallon, and are marked with various key words like Terpene, Non-Flammable, Solvent, Ester, Premium and Fast Drying, or some combination of those words.

I am going to be using it to flush a system that is being converted to R-134a from R-12, and most likely had PAG, UV-dye, and stop-leak added to it at some point, so the flush will need to remove those. Also, the inside of the old compressor was like a rock tumbler, and the shaft was sheared off with MIA pressure plate, so the ability to magically remove metal chunks would be desirable as well...

Does anybody with decent experience have a recommendation on which flush fluid I should use?
Also, I have read recommendations to replace the condensor in this situation as well, but feel that a good flush should be adequate. Do you concur?

Thanks for the advice!

DSMAddicted

Hey Buddy...
Sorry, I don't have much advice about the flush, but when recharging time comes, have you looked into ES-12a?
It's legal, compatible with all R134 systems and much more efficient:
http://autorefrigerants.com/

I have a full recharge kit I had gotten for my SVX with AC issues but never wound up using (sold the car):

- ES-12a can (qty.: 4)
- ES-12a can with dye (qty.: 1)
- Stopleak (qty.: 1)

Everything brand new, sealed.

-Walter
__________________

PM me if you're interested.

Sonia's Driver

[QUOTE=DSMAddicted;45694800]...have you looked into ES-12a? It's legal, compatible with all R134 systems and much more efficient:
QUOTE]

Holy crap. ES-12a / HC-12a is a mixture of propane and iso-butane. It is a very flammable mixture and therefore illegal (in the US) to use for charging a new AC system. It is really not a smart replacement for R-12, or R-134a, for that matter. It may be safe for the environment, but it's not safe for you. I'm glad to hear that you didn't endanger yourself by using it as a refrigerant.

DSMAddicted

Hehehe... you do know how R12 came to be illegal in the US, do you?

Sonia's Driver

Indeed, I do know how it came to be illegal in the US.

The United States ratified the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer on September 16, 1987. This committed the US to limiting the production and import of ozone depleting substances.
The is what lead to the passage of the 1990 amendment of the Clean Air Act, which, among other things, mandated the phaseout of ozone depleting substances by dividing them into two classes by how destructive they are to ozone. CFC-12 was placed into class 1, and was subsequently phased out at a rate of 75%/year starting in 1994, and phased out totally by 1996.
Another important component of the amendment to the Clean Air Act was the safe alternatives policy, which promised to provide a list of safe alternative refrigerants, and banned the replacement of R-12 and other ozone depleting substances with refrigerants which were not safe, and therefore not on the list of safe replacements.

ES-12a is not on the list of safe replacements (for very good reason) and is therefore illegal.

It is important to note that R-134a is not a class 1 or 2 substance, and can therefore be replaced with any refrigerant which is otherwise legal.

Former User

This thread has been derailed by off topic discussion. If you wish, I can close this one so that you can start a new one fresh.

DSMAddicted

I apologize for derailing it. I normally stay on topic.

-Walter

Former User

It's an interesting topic for discussion, just not the one the OP intended.

strategy400

If the compressor was a rock tumbler you might want to look into replacing the expansion valve. I'd imagine there's a chunk jam/clog there. The condensor replacement advice is probably common because it's an easily accessible item to replace.

I'm curious if anyone has had a good result with a R12 to 134a conversion. I have not. I recommend NOT epoxy-ing the new 134a valves in place until you have had a successful conversion for a few months (in case you want to convert back).

Expensive A/C is better than no A/C.

Sonia's Driver

I'm replacing the expansion valve and the receiver/drier, so that's taken care of. In addition to flushing, I will replace all of the o-rings.

Why were you dissatisfied with your conversion? Did it not cool adequately?

strategy400

It was good for about a day and then the system lost pressure and wouldn't hold a charge.

Go ahead and flush and replace the parts you mentioned and try it (and report back please). I am curious to see how it goes. If it works out for you I might give mine another go (although it's a 91 Accord with 300,000 on it).

carlos8

hi, disconect the a/c hoses from the evaporator port in the firewall and in the
condensator. Poor coil cleaner trough it, means the coil cleaner goes from the
one end on the F/W to the condenser let it seat for a minutes flush with water and air compressor repeat till come clean air/water, now use a/c solvent in the same way but just solvent not water if you not have solvent
make sure with the compressor to remove any moysture (recomend solvent)
Remember always change Dryer and Exp. valve

hope this help.

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

You can use just about any commercially available solvent marketed as an A/C flush. This includes anything sold as such at Autozone/Advanced/NAPA/etc., as well as products like Zep R.E.D. Ensure it is not a water-based solvent, however. Unfortunately, these products are basically impossible to find in Canada, so we need to get creative up here. Thankfully, there are common off-the-shelf alternatives that have the same properties as the above solvents - namely - and don't be alarmed, here - paint thinner.

From ACKITS.com - probably the forum with the highest concentration of authorities on A/C maintenance:

Note that you *should* remove all the components and flush them individually, especially if stop-leak was added. Flushing the evaporator requires its removal and the removal of the TXV before flushing. DO NOT get flushing solvent on the evap's foam insulation; you'll be sorry. Remove it completely from the box. Normally I would recommend here that you replace the entire evaporator with one that will accept a cabin filter (97-01 CRV, 98-01 Integra, 98-00 Civic - see my DIYs) but there are none that are compatible with original R12 lines.

I will finish by adding that you are totally off-base about your R12a claims, and I wish to inform you better. If you care to understand the science, here are some research papers concerning the safety of hydrocarbon refrigerants.

Usage and Risk of Hydrocarbon Refrigerants in Motor Cars for Australia and the United States

Insurance Risk for Hydrocarbon Refrigerants in Car Air-Conditioners

Comparative Performance of Hydrocarbon Refrigerants

Some of the interesting take home messages from the various papers are:

* Between 1993 - 2003 (year of the publication), there is not ONE incident of ignition attributable to hydrocarbons in a mobile air conditioning system (MACS) both according to the NHTSA, and by anyone asked by the author in USA & Australian government, insurance, research, car and refrigerant manufacture. (So, millions vehicles.) Interestingly, there is an incident noted in NZ where the PAG oil in an R134a system ignited after a collision.

* The risk to flammability in the cabin in the case of catastrophic failure of an in-cabin component (say, an evaporator) is limited to about a 48 second window, only for someone who is already smoking or decides to light up during that time, AND continues to drive with all the windows rolled up, despite a white cloud of "smoke" appearing from the passenger footwell and the distinct smell of propane - and even then, this scenario applies to only certain types of A/C systems. Other types are considered harmless.

There is some question outstanding as to the effect on the A/C components' warranty. Your components are long out of warranty so this is a moot point. In researching this aspect I have yet to read of any incident, anecdotal or otherwise, where an aftermarket mfr did not honor a warranty because R12a was used. In practice, although they state 'don't use anything but XXX', I doubt they disallow any/many claims due specifically to the use of R12a. Incidentally, if you're worried, Duracool offers a whole line of compressors which they back up with their own warranty. R12a operates at much lower pressures so there is a lot less stress on the system anyway, so is already less likely to cause wear/tear problems on compressors. Also, it cools as cold or colder than the original R12 in your system - something that you're sure to be disappointed about if you convert to R134a. Oh - also, you won't have to bother tediously flushing your lines since it's compatible with the mineral oil that's in there already (though I might still do it for peace of mind and to get that stop leak gunk out).

Regarding the legality in the US, it IS banned in a number of states, and my understanding is that these laws date to the 1930s when CFCs were gaining traction as a non-flammable alternative. Hydrocarbon refrigerants were banned due to the hysteria of the time (unfounded concern that they were explosive). The US EPA does not allow R12a to be used as a drop-in alternative to R12, however it does not apply to systems first converted to R134a. To convert your system, you need to change the fittings at the valves, and then you will find yourself compliant.

There are no such restrictions here in Canada.

Former User

The concerns raised in this thread posted in 2009 stated that warranties for A/C components may not be honored and A/C shops won't service systems charged with R12a. I was inclined to believe these statements as the posting member (fcm) works in a shop that services A/C systems. Of course, this may not be a concern to DIYers. Nonetheless, those planning conversion to R12a should be aware of these potential issues.

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

Agree that this point is of little concern to a DIYer. The dominant paradigm for MACS in North America is still R12 and R134a, so if the shop does not have the equipment to deal with evacuating an R12a system then they will turn you away. I cannot stress more the necessity of correctly informing a shop of the refrigerant in your system as it is very important not to cross-contaminate their equipment. Incidentally, the way they do it in Australia is very simple: degas R12a to the atmosphere, since it is basically benign.

The user can and should evaluate the risk of the threat of having your A/C component warranty voided, even though every indication shows that R12a use is less harmful in many ways. You should evaluate also whether this threat is being wielded as leverage by unscrupulous and/or uninformed shop owners to ensnare your business.

Former User

Civic1.6EX

Hello....I wanted to ask...can I just flush out the old system oil without removing any of the componets?

I want to make sure that I have new fresh oil and the right amount since this a 15 year old car and dont know if the PO ever added oil to overfill it.

Thank you for any help that you have..

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

^ No, and you can't half-*** it because it will be broken in no time, and probably worse. There are a bunch of components you can't flush through, so you must take at least some parts apart. See my post #13 above. You can leave the lines mounted in the car though, but disconnect the components at either end.

Linked

any official writeup regarding completely flushing the ac system?

i'm aware of probably the following:

remove: compressor, condensor, evaporator, TXV

replace receiver dryer after flush

flush all lines and components removed

but how would one go about flushing the lines and components?

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

There is tons and tons of material on correct flushing techniques. The most comprehensive document I read was this one, which is a whole white paper on proper flushing. Only thing really to remember specific to the Civic is what I mention about the evap in post #13.

thunderUp1984

I am looking to flush my a/c system,, i had taken everything out ( took a long time ) i was wondering the fastest way with out compressed air cause i cant seem to find a compressor tank for rent ? i was just gonna buy some solvent flush and then sray some air duster thru the lines and evaporator ....please anyone help

OptimisticWay

I do not concur. If an A/C system has experienced a compressor failure, it is not optional to replace the condensor, it is mandatory. The condenser has several small passages that will not be possible to flush fragments completely out of. In the future, not at a time of your choosing, these fragments will dislodge themselves and get stuck in a less than desirable place like the expansion valve. Do it right or do it twice.

OptimisticWay

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

I don't think it matters. The thread is years old.