mixx2001

I swapped in a B18C into my 1997 2DR EX in October, and ever since this issue has been getting progressively worse. It's only when the car has been sitting for 3-4 or more hours, I get into the car cold, and the first time I release the clutch (pulling out of the driveway, out into the street, away from a light, etc, etc), the whole front end shudders. If I absolutely baby the **** out it, and just barely creep away from a stand still, on perfectly flat ground, I can almost avoid it, but I still feel it. If I leave from a stand still normally, it'll damn near shake your fillings out. It gets progressively better the next 3-4 times I leave in 1st, until it eventually goes away all together, and feels fine.

Now this was a JDM Swap, and HMO estimated that it should have less than 35k (who knows), so we didn't separate the Trans from the Engine, because everything looked fine. Unfortunately I don't know if there is an aftermarket clutch in there, or maybe an aftermarket LSD, or both (Steve said it happens all the time with JDM Swaps). One of the techs (at the shop where I did the swap), rode with me and swore up and down it did have both and LSD and Aftermarket Clutch of some kind. It does engage and disengage like an ON/OFF switch, but I had little previous experience driving Hondas (always had AWD DSMs/GVR4s with ACT 2600s), and didnt know if all of them were this sensitive. Either way it definitely doesn't have any of the markings for a Factory LSD.

I'm thinking since it does get better rather quickly, that I need to pull the trans and have a look at the clutch, but figured I would run it by this community first, in case you guys could point me in a couple other less labor intensive directions. The 3 Engine/Trans Mounts and the 2 Torque Mounts are all OEM Stock, but new, so I don't think that's the issue, also because of how quickly this seems to go away. Any ideas?

mixx2001

Been doing some more reading here, trying some different terms, and it sounds like I may be getting some clutch chatter. I've always assumed that would be an audible problem, but I've never experienced it before so, I wouldn't know. It sounds like it can occur when you have a small oil leak in the area, or if the the flywheel wasn't properly resurfaced after clutch replacement, or even if the clutch is just starting to go.

My mounts are stock (99-00 Si mounts for the JDM B18C swap), and all look good, but I just remembered we reused the rear mount on the firewall, which was the stock D16Y8 mount with an red ES Insert. Maybe that's the issue. The car being cold causes the worn mounts to contract, and so the engine/trans moves entirely too much. But once the engine bay warms up, the mounts expand and provide more support?

Idk, I'm just spitballin' here. I've got some 3M Windo-Weld and two brand new Torque Mounts, so I'm gonna fill those tonight, and put em' on Sat; see what that does.

jbpnoman

If the problem is going away, it isn't your mounts.

Figuring out whether or not you have an LSD is easy. Pop out your axles. If you can see through the transmission, you don't have an LSD. The state of the flywheel is also easy to see - just remove the guard between the oil pan and the transmission, and look at it. Clutch/pressure plate identification obviously requires you remove the transmission.

mixx2001

I was thinking that too. I didn't think the Mounts could expand and contract enough to create that big of a difference. Of course, once it warms up there's still plenty of movement, just no more shudder/chatter when leaving in first.



Yeah, unfortunately we didn't get a chance to do that when we did the swap, and time is a precious commodity for me (hence all the guessing). Really wish I would have now, even though I doubt it's related to this issue, but just to know. If there is one in there, it's aftermarket, cause there are no factory LSD markings on the Trans case.



I might be incorrect here, but wouldn't that only give me a look at the back (engine side) of the Flywheel? Obviously I would be able to see any cracks that went all the way through to the engine side of the Flywheel (definite need of replacement), but not any hairline cracks or surface residue that could be fixed by resurfacing the Trans side of the Flywheel.

Thanks for the Reply!

kyden

if it has an oem clutch in it, most likely one of the springs is starting to come away from the cage it sits in. my car did the same thing, but i also had 200k miles on the original clutch.

the aftermarket puck style clutches do chatter quite a bit.

HondaPartsHero

My Y7 did the same thing at about 150k, pulled the transmission and the disc was on the way out. Replaced it and the flywheel with an Exedy unit and no more chatter.

mixx2001

The clutch with this JDM B18C definitely feels worlds different than the one that was with the Y8 in there previously. I only drove the car with the Y8 for two months after I bought it (before it spun a Rod Bearing and we swapped in the B18C), and it was my first Honda, so I didn't get a lot of seat time with a factory Honda Clutch, but its still a noticeable difference.

The only other Honda I've ever driven was a friends USDM GSR that did have an aftermarket clutch, and I don't remember it being this sensitive. Even after the shudder/chatter stops, this clutch still feels like there's no "slip" at all. It's either ON or OFF, and no in between. Which is exasperated by the soft factory mounts, and makes for some embarrassing driving if I'm not paying a lot attention when leaving from a stop and shifting.

doctorake

Easier than pulling an axle is to lift the front.

start in first gear and jack the front up.

Place your hands on the top of the one of the tires connected to the lifted axle. Turn the wheel slowly. Differentials equipped with limited slip will be difficult to turn, or turn not at all. Open differentials, also known as "conventional" differentials, will turn freely.

Shift the vehicle's transmission to neutral.

Turn the same tire again. Limited-slip differentials will turn freely. A secondary indicator will be the opposite tire's rotation pattern. If your axle is equipped with limited slip, the opposite tire will turn in the same direction. Open, or conventional, differentials will turn in the opposite direction.

bisscrac

iTrader: (1)

so you got your b18 and just dropped it in ? just used the clutch that came with the swap ?

mixx2001

No, we didn't just drop it in.

I purchased the swap from Steve at Honda Motors Online. He said the swap should have less than 35k, and looked the part, it was immaculate. So we didn't bother separating the trans. We did replace the T-belt, Water Pump, Thermo, Oil, Trans Oil, Cap, Rotor Button, Plugs, and Wires.

kyden

mileage is only a small part of the equation. time and driver also comes into play.

HondaPartsHero

I have nothing against HMO (I've only got my engines from them and would highly recommend them) but no one knows how many miles are on the engines. Secondly I'm pretty sure they steam clean them and make them look top notch. Its doubtful they come off the container like that.

mixx2001

Of course, and if there are aftermarket parts in there, all the more reason to suspect abuse.


I've been suspicious of that myself, but most of them really do have low miles, here's a good blog post explaining why: http://japaneseengines.wordpress.com...e-low-mileage/

As for the cleanliness; I've been working at Dealerships for the last 15yrs, and I got my start (like most) in Detail. There are some things you can't fix with a pressure washer, and some of the JDM 4G63's from Japan Direct I've purchased before (4 all together) have been pretty rough. The biggest tell however is the wires and electrical connectors. They generally don't stand up well on higher mileage vehicles, and the ones on this swap, were pristine.


I suppose it doesn't really matter anyway, like kyden said, I'm leaning more toward abuse, or the flywheel not being resurfaced. No matter what, it looks like I need to pull the trans, and get a look at this thing. Thanks for the suggestions guys!

bisscrac

iTrader: (1)

so like i said you just used the clutch that came with the swap ?


them motors sit out of cars in yards over there for years, then in shipping containers for months. the flywheels, springs in the clutches, are magnets for moister, durring all that time of just sitting clutches, clutch springs, throw out bearings, all just become rusted, busted, and crusted........

bisscrac

iTrader: (1)

your engine bay looks good btw

mixx2001

We did, yes.


True, but it's really no different than parking a car for any length of time, which of course could cause some issues as well.


Thanks!! It's my daily 120m round trip vehicle, so Intake and Exhaust is all she gets. Maybe some suspension later.




I haven't had a chance to look at the Clutch/Flywheel, but I noticed something else. If I set off at a higher RPM (2k-2.5k), during the first couple take off's after the car is cold, it doesn't shudder at all. I can also hear and feel the Engine/Trans moving around more in the recent weeks. For example when I'm driving slowly through a rough parking lot.

I'm used to driving cars with more torque and lower usable RPM ranges, I think this may just be a combination of me setting off at too low of an RPM in the mornings, when the clutch is cold, with some really worn Engine/Trans Mounts. I'm installing some Window Welded Torque Mounts this weekend, so I'll see if it helps at all.

S2BumpsticksGSR

Doctorake is on point, don't waste time pulling axles to see if you have lsd it works a lot easier doing w/axles in.
Definitely will be the flywheel. Get it resurfaced and sand the clutch surface glaze off(if still in spec), then reinstall done. Change oil in trans while you're there don't use gear oil.