Ohmster

I just took my '95 Honda Civic Del Sol Vtech in for a $16.99 oil change at Tires Plus, this is the first time I am having this done since buying the car about 5 months ago. The car has 123K miles on it. They did a good job but called me over when looking at the car, they said that my coolant reservoir was empty and they could see no coolant in the radiator and also that the Master Cylinder was empty and I could see it was. They topped off the radiator with coolant, it did not take much and put some in the reservoir as well. I have since changed both radiator hoses, cap, thermostat, and reservoir hose, and topped everything off with coolant about a month or so ago. This may not be so serious, might just have leaked out of the reservoir and did not have any left to suck back into the radiator. But the brake cylinder is more serious...

First they looked at all the brakes and lines for leakage and could not find any. Next they topped off the master cylinder and the fluid leaked right back out in a thin stream, in about 1 minute, it was all gone again. The mechanic pushed on top of the cylinder reservoir, that white plastic cup with the strainer in it and the cap with float and two wires and when he did, you could see the fluid leaking out of the white cup in the back, it must have a crack in the back of the reservoir cup. Today is Saturday and he called all around and could not locate anyone selling just the reservoir cup, had to buy the whole master cylinder. Honda has one in stock but it costs $203 and that is more money than I have right now but this is scary, driving with only the fluid in the brake lines. It seems that the reservoir cup is not available as a part and I have to buy the entire master cylinder.

My friend Christa said that I should just duct tape it for now and I told her that duct tape would not stick to a nylon brake cylinder with fluid leaking out of it. She then suggested silicone RTV and that might actually work. If the part were removed and was clean and dry, I probably could silicone up a small crack and it would hold fluid for the time being. Do you guys think that would work? More important, where could I get a new master cylinder reservoir cup without having to buy the whole master cylinder? It looks easy enough to take off, there is a wire clamp with 1 screw holding it on. I wonder why the Brake light did not come on either, it does come on when you pull up the parking brake. Might be a bad float and sensor in the cap of the master cylinder reservoir. I could check it with a meter if anyone knows how this type of sensor works, should the wires short or open when the float moves? I guess I could check with a meter if anything happens at all when the float moves and see for myself.

It is Saturday afternoon, early, and I can still get this thing silicon sealed by tonight if I do it now, do you think it will work? And where can I find a new cup for the master cylinder reservoir? I tried Majestic Honda and cannot even find the brake cylinder, never mind the reservoir cup.
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/

Can somebody please tell me what to do, it is very scary riding with only brake fluid in the lines and none in the master cylinder reservoir cup. Is there any way to just buy this cup and not the whole master cylinder?

Thank you for your speedy replies mates!

Eran

iTrader: (1)

For further reference, it's in Chassis -> Master Power. You cannot buy just a cup. Also, you may have a hard time using silicone or epoxy to seal that crack, because brake fluid is a solvent. It will destroy silicone and will not let other adhesives cure.

Your best bet is to either:

A) Find one from a junk yard.

or

B) Buy one brand new from Honda. Part number is '46100-SR3-833' and list price is $259.63.

Most remans that you buy at an autoparts store will not come with the cup, nor will they sell the cup at all.

Ohmster

Dammit! I did not even think about brake fluid being a solvent that would eat the silicone. I hope to God that somebody has a cup or knows where to get one, Honda by me wants $203 for the cylinder and has them in stock right now. I really do not have the money for that but if I did buy it, could I just change the cup and cap with wires and fill it with fluid or does the entire thing have to be changed? I have very little time to get this done before having to go to work. Good looking out on how to ID the part with number, I appreciate that.

Thanks for your speedy reply, somebody please tell me where to get a new reservoir cup!

Ohmster

Advance Auto Parts had the entire master cylinder for $70. I went there for brake fluid and asked the guy about the part. He said that the reservoir cup for the master cylinder was not available as a separate part so just for kicks, I asked for a price. When I heard how cheap it was compared to Honda and he had it right in his hands, that was it for me, I bought it on the spot, part # M39780. I took off the old cup by loosening the single 8mm screw clamp and pulling the two wires out of the old cap and loosened the new cup screw (10mm) and pulled loose the cup. It fit right on the old master cylinder perfectly. I tightened the 10mm screw to snug it up and connected the wires. Next I turned on the engine to check the brake light, it was working now, light on, no fluid. I filled it with brake fluid and all is well, no leaks, no light, good brakes.

The $203 from Honda was too much for my budget but the $70 I could handle. All fixed now, thanks for you help, Eran.

BlueIntegraBoy

iTrader: (5)

You should have swapped out the master cylinder too, instead of just the reservoir since you bought the whole thing.

Ohmster

I can still do that Blue, I have the part and it is easy enough to do the job. Really though, there was no trouble with the existing master cylinder, no low or spongy pedal, very good brakes. I do not have a full tool set yet, a few ratchets, electrical toolbox, and some odds and ends. I buy sockets as I go along, last one was a 19mm socket for the steering wheel, a T30 tip for the ratchet, a 1/4 ratchet and small extension for the T30. I have a few basic sockets, 6-12mm I think.

To replace the cylinder, tell me if this is right, okay?

Remove cap and sensor wires. Get line wrenches and take off the brake lines, plug them if possible. Unbolt the master cylinder from the booster. Bolt on the new one, put back the lines, add fluid. Now the tricky part. Don't I have to get someone to push down on the brake pedal while I open little bleeder valves on each brake caliper to vent any air, close valve, release brake pedal, repeat as necessary until no more air comes from that wheel. Check and add more fluid, continue with each wheel until no more air is in the system. Is that about right, Blue? Where are the bleeder valves located?

Really the brakes are totally fixed now, sensor and everything works, but I hate to waste that brand new master cylinder. It would be nice to change it with fresh new parts. That is why I bought the new cylinder instead of going to the junk yard for that reservoir cup. Mine is a plastic cup with 12 years of heat, grease, brake fluid, and age on it. No kind of plastic holds up that well under such conditions for that many years. The sensor wires were brittle and broke in my hands, new cap and wires restored the sensor. The cup looked old, thin, and brittle as well. I did not want to put back a similar part in that condition. Do you recommend replacing the rest of the cylinder anyway just to get it done?

Can you give me a tool list as to what I would need to replace the cylinder? Does that mean jacking up each wheel, taking off the tires, and bleeding each caliper to get all of the air out of the system and topping it off with fluid? Do I need a helper for this to press the brake pedal while I release the brake bleeder valves, hold pedal down, tighten bleeder valve, repeat until no more air comes out? Is that how it is done? What do you think, do it anyway?

I do value everyone's opinion here so please tell me everyone, would you all just change the master cylinder because now I just happen to have a new one, sitting around, doing nothing, or just store the part until it becomes necessary? What would the rest of you do and what tools and equipment do I need to get this job done?

I will say one thing though. I have been coming to this web board since I got my car and first had a problem with no horn or cruise control. You guys showed me how to use the CEL codes, how to replace the clock spring or "cable reel" as Honda calls it, and the part cost like $21 on ebay with maybe another $20 in tool costs. I was hooked on this web forum ever since. You guys know yer **** pretty darned good. I feel a LOT safer now, driving around with brake fluid in my master cylinder. I had no idea there was no fluid, the old float sensor in the cap had rotted wires on it and failed to report a brake problem. If not for that $18.01 oil change today, I would never have known about this and once I did, I could not leave it alone out of fear of losing brakes on the highway. I do feel a LOT better now and much safer too. Now just what to do with this brand new master cylinder that is just sitting around?

Thanks everybody!


Modified by Ohmster at 5:54 PM 10/20/2007

instrument

i love it when a plan comes together.

Ohmster

Heh heh, so it's not just me, is it? Would you change the entire master cylinder just because you have it, even though the cup and cap completely fixed the problem that I was having or just leave it in the box until it becomes necessary to change it. Also, does one need a helper, remove each tire, and then bleed each caliper until there is no more air, repeat and refill as necessary, until all air is gone from the brake system?

BlueIntegraBoy

iTrader: (5)

I just replaced my master cylinder two days ago.

1. Remove the cap from the old MC and drain the fluid from one caliper (driver front) until no fluid in the MC.
2. Crack the brake line fittings using a 10mm flared nut wrench (I think a Del Sol VTEC might have one 10mm and one 12mm fitting.
3. Using a 12mm socket, undo the nuts holding the MC to the booster.
4. Bench bleed the new MC (instructions can be found by searching).
5. Bolt up the new MC and lines.
6. Bleed the brakes.

Tools needed:
- 10mm flared nut wrench (12mm, maybe)
- 12mm socket

Bleeding instructions:
- Bleed caliper (where bleeder valve is located) from furthest away from the MC to the closest.
- Pump the brake pedal 4-5 times and hold the pedal, then open bleeder valve and close it.
- Keep doing this until no air comes out or until new brake fluid comes out.

1sickEJ

i think you guys r high my master cyclinder wasnt that much.. i think the omni one is like 150$ anyway make sure its the master cyclinder i had similar problem but it was the slave cyclinder..

BlueIntegraBoy

iTrader: (5)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1sickEJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think you guys r high my master cyclinder wasnt that much.. i think the omni one is like 150$ anyway make sure its the master cyclinder i had similar problem but it was the slave cyclinder.. </TD></TR></TABLE>

We are talking about the brake master cylinder.

Ohmster

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just replaced my master cylinder two days ago.

1. Remove the cap from the old MC and drain the fluid from one caliper (driver front) until no fluid in the MC.
2. Crack the brake line fittings using a 10mm flared nut wrench (I think a Del Sol VTEC might have one 10mm and one 12mm fitting.
3. Using a 12mm socket, undo the nuts holding the MC to the booster.
4. Bench bleed the new MC (instructions can be found by searching).
5. Bolt up the new MC and lines.
6. Bleed the brakes.

Tools needed:
- 10mm flared nut wrench (12mm, maybe)
- 12mm socket

Bleeding instructions:
- Bleed caliper (where bleeder valve is located) from furthest away from the MC to the closest.
- Pump the brake pedal 4-5 times and hold the pedal, then open bleeder valve and close it.
- Keep doing this until no air comes out or until new brake fluid comes out.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Dude,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this, I copied it to a text doc and saved it for when I get ready to do this. Everything that I have done on my car I have done this way with help from this board. My friend gave me instructions on this "bench bleeding" that you were talking about, is this correct?

<FONT COLOR="green">I would have put the entire master cyl on personally. Before doing anything that you mentioned, you need to pre-bleed the master cyl. You d othis by putting the m.c. in a vice, then adding NEW brake fluid into the cup, then using a wooden dowel, press into the rear of the unit about an inch, SLOWLY. Then wait about 15 seconds and repeat till there is no more air bubbles coming up inside the cup. Be patient and repeat till no air bubbles!!! Then do what you said. It is good idea to use a 10MM line-wrench to crack the brake line nuts loose. You may use a penetrating lube on them first. Do same for bleeders. You will need a helper to press the brake pedal down after you crack open the bleeder. You should tell them to PRESS TO FLOOR after you crack it open about 1/4 to 1/2 turn. You should tell them UP after you tighten it back up. They should tell you Down to Floor, and Up after your commands. Keep checking to make sure there is fluid in the cup! I'm sure that you, like most people, have not replaced your brake fluid in a while. Do it! Old fluid wears out and if you realyy need to hit the brake hard, the pedal can travel to the floor, only compressing the old fluid. You might not stop on time. I changed my fluid in my Acura Integra at least 6 times in its 75,000 life time so far! I do drive hard, and depend on my brakes. I do all the work myself on all my vehicles, so I know it is done right. So go for it, cuss a little, but mainly learn as you go.
Good luck Paul,
Kevin</FONT>

Does that sound like good advice? Just wanted to come back and say thanks because you took the time to help me.

BlueIntegraBoy

iTrader: (5)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ohmster &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Dude,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this, I copied it to a text doc and saved it for when I get ready to do this. Everything that I have done on my car I have done this way with help from this board. My friend gave me instructions on this "bench bleeding" that you were talking about, is this correct?

<FONT COLOR="green">I would have put the entire master cyl on personally. Before doing anything that you mentioned, you need to pre-bleed the master cyl. You d othis by putting the m.c. in a vice, then adding NEW brake fluid into the cup, then using a wooden dowel, press into the rear of the unit about an inch, SLOWLY. Then wait about 15 seconds and repeat till there is no more air bubbles coming up inside the cup. Be patient and repeat till no air bubbles!!! Then do what you said. It is good idea to use a 10MM line-wrench to crack the brake line nuts loose. You may use a penetrating lube on them first. Do same for bleeders. You will need a helper to press the brake pedal down after you crack open the bleeder. You should tell them to PRESS TO FLOOR after you crack it open about 1/4 to 1/2 turn. You should tell them UP after you tighten it back up. They should tell you Down to Floor, and Up after your commands. Keep checking to make sure there is fluid in the cup! I'm sure that you, like most people, have not replaced your brake fluid in a while. Do it! Old fluid wears out and if you realyy need to hit the brake hard, the pedal can travel to the floor, only compressing the old fluid. You might not stop on time. I changed my fluid in my Acura Integra at least 6 times in its 75,000 life time so far! I do drive hard, and depend on my brakes. I do all the work myself on all my vehicles, so I know it is done right. So go for it, cuss a little, but mainly learn as you go.
Good luck Paul,
Kevin</FONT>

Does that sound like good advice? Just wanted to come back and say thanks because you took the time to help me.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1976889

ejprimo

http://www.ap-auto.com/oem/wiz...inder

1995 Honda Del Sol V-TEC DOHC PBR Brake Master Cylinder
Part # PBR-N3000-54235 $141.12