vtecnique69

This is geared towards the more hardcore modders (*ahem* DaveSi)...

Anyone have these installed? They now have both front and rear available as separate kits, instead of having to buy the master kit for everything like before. I am having a small issue with alignment that may be a bushing failure and would rather do all the arm bushings at once instead of replacing just one.

Any insight?

DaveSi677

I don't have them installed but it's something on my list of things to do! I haven't experienced too much change on my alignment while tracking but that is probably cause I went more often to make changes to my alignment.

I would go for it honestly.

DaveSi677

Also you will be improving the stability and control of the car during cornering... it's a win win for me in my books...

God damn it look what you did now I might have pick up a set this weekend lol

B serious

iTrader: (1)

There are large downsides to poly bushings. If you have to debate or ask whether you should do them...they're not for you.

If you street drive the car....why would you do this to yourself?

If you have never changed bushings before...you'll do it once. When the poly bushings wear out in about...ehh...1-2 years...you'll sell the car or push it off a cliff instead of doing bushings ever again.

Do you like your current height? Because you finna get shorter via compacting your spinal column.

Ever ridden on a skateboard? Notice how well it rode over bumps? It has polyurethane wheels.

I wouldn't.

vtecnique69

I like having a good handling car. If I have to sacrifice ride quality, so be it. I would like to retire the Si in a few years and build a track **** out of it, piece by piece.

vtecnique69

@Dave - they're relatively inexpensive and I believe, lower maintenance than spherical bushings up front. The set front and rear is about $120 directly from ES

DaveSi677

yes downfall is they are a rougher ride but I track the car very often.

@vtec they are about 120 for the front and rear kit... you can maybe get it cheaper in the US!

vtecnique69

That was us pricing lol. I'm in Illinois

B serious

iTrader: (1)

You don't need poly bushings to make a car handle well. I track my S2000. It will never recieve poly bushings. They're a middle road bushing that gives you the worst of both worlds.

They don't improve handling like you think. The tiny, tiny handling gain is definitely not worth the heavy downsides. Track people don't change to poly bushings without the need to cheaply replace worn stock bushings.

The exception applies to the offset (or non offset) ones that go on your UPPER control arms or toe joint bushings. Those can be beneficial or desirable in poly.

I wouldn't use poly on bushings that bear the weight of the car. Or in a spot where compliance is required (like a complaince or RTA bushing). The wear rates are appaling and they are usually detrimental to handling.

People who do poly bushings are largely those who assume that because a car rides hard and bangs and skips over bumps....it handles good. Most of those cars will never even be in the vicinity of a track.

I track cars. I don't use poly bushings because I know better. Hard rubber or genuine Honda replacements go a long way and are more beneficial for street/track mix cars.

I might use poly on all parts for some shitbox race car that I wanted to only spend pennies on. Nothing wrong with those builds. Infact....after building a shitbox once...its ******* awesome to do so.

Yall do what yall want. I've had cars with poly bushings before. I would recommend against it vehemently for any car that you actually enjoy driving and/or use on the street.

Materials have their applications. Unfortunately, poly is not a good choice of material for load bearing automotive bushings for a street driven car. That's why OEM's don't use them even on hard edged, track oriented street cars like type R's or CSL's

vtecnique69

Th at was pretty insightful. I saw mugen makes hard rubber bushings for our 8th gens. A lot more expensive though.

DaveSi677

ya the mugen ones are very expensive... i don't think they are even worth it for that price.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Hard race makes hard rubber bushings as well. For much less. I have Mugen hard rubber compliance bushings in my S2000's LCA's. I bought them at an asinine price of $100 (wtf) because they don't sell Honda compliance bushings by themselves for those cars.

Are your bushings worn? Why are you replacing them? There are easier and cheaper surefire mods. Tires, for example.

The labor and effort to install bushings is HIGH on the scale of **** that sucks. I use a press. My car has never seen winter. I'm better at working on cars than a vast majority of people. **** is still frustrating.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Mugen is kind of like Honda's version of Brabus or maybe even AMG. Their parts are fairly conservative...but EXTREMELY high quality. They're comparable in quality to Geniune Honda parts...and often times they are just slightly tweaked Genuine Honda parts.

Mugen bushings are about 10% stiffer than stock. Its a difference thats seamless, but still aids performance while keeping longevity and civility. They're engineered for the particular application. So...yeah...Mugen costs money.

Poly bushings are cheap for a reason. They're rough, they wear out extremely quickly, they make noise, and there's almost nothing taken into account except deflection prevention...whether you need it in that area or not. There is basic fitment engineering involved. But anyone can make poly bushings. For pennies.

Poly complaince bushings will actually hurt the handling of your car.

vtecnique69

I'm honestly looking to push the handling of my car to the next level. Everyone is always looking for power, I'm looking for handling.

Now, I don't have the setup that everyone seems to prefer, but I have what works for me and the areas I drive in. Neuspeed sports, Konis (have oranges up front, about to drop coin on the yellows), progress rsb. Everything just seemed to get loose over the last 2 weeks and I figure now is a good of time as any to continue working on it.

my last alignment had my rear passenger toe completely out of whacK for some reason, so I thought it might be time for an overhaul of all the rubbers. I tend to drive spiritedly, yet cautious of potholes and debris So I have no idea what could have happened.

So yellows up front and an alignment at the local speed shop (just found out they have an alignment rack on site) to start with. I thought bushings might push me to the next level of enjoyment .

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Did you clock your bushings when you lowered the car? Rubber bushings all need to be clocked whenever their bolts are removed and/or when ride height changes.

If you didn't....they're likely torn or fatigued by now :'(

I'd go with Honda bushings. Check your front compliance bushings. They're a high wear item.

DaveSi677

Vtec what is your alignment settings at? This can be one area you can completely change the way the car handles!

I'm running a fairly aggressive setup cause I track a lot and it's night and day difference even on the street.

vtecnique69

Did I clock my bushings? No. I was lazy, forgetful, whatever you want to call it. I suppose I'm a hippocryt lol, wanting better handling but didn't go the extra step.

I'm at stock settings for toe, -1.5* rear camber, .5* front camber. I believe I ran positive toe up front on my last alignment which would explain snappy turn in and sharper steering that I used to have.

DaveSi677

Dude omg wow no kidding you want your car to handle better!!!

To get the Si to turn in better you need to run way more camber in the front!

For mild street/track try this
Front and rear toe 0.0

Front camber -2.5
Rear camber -1.5


If you want more aggressive street and track this is what I'm running:

Toe all around 0.0

Front camber -3.0
Rear camber -2.0

For time attack I run -3.5 camber in the front!

Our cars need more camber in the front to get them to really attack the corner and trust me you will be blown away but just this change!

vtecnique69

I'm not ready for 0 toe all around lol. Itll feel like I'm driving on ice.

I was taking my specs from redshift's website on mild street settings. Worked great until the front struts gave out. Handled on rails around town, no complaints on that end.

vtecnique69

Did you use 2 camber bolts up front to get that camber?

DaveSi677

Redshift suggest 0 toe all around. It's a stock setting from factory. If I wasn't driving to the track and the occasional cruise I go on I would have some toe out in the front but I don't want to ruin my tires yet!

I'm only using one camber bolt to achieve that camber.

Trust me I spent a lot of time talking to Chris at Redshift and even told me unless it's a dedicated track car toe at 0 all around. Look at his middle setup it's 0 toe. I posted it in my first post in the track thread that is sticked!

DaveSi677

Just double checked and he does say for the rear 0.04 toe.

But still changing your camber will wake it up big time trust me! I dropped nearly 3 seconds a lap just with my last setup.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Additional front camber helps with a few things. And -3 isn't unreasonable for a McPherson strut car. I ran more than that on my ITR (-3.5) and S2000 (-3.2)....and those are wishbone cars. It can help with front end grip. Doesn't really make turn-in on the street more "snappy". But its useless if you're not tracking the car a lot. For a car that's predominantly street driven, I'd be more conservative. -2ish would be fine.

0 toe is also normal. Idk why it would feel like ice? I run 0 or close to 0 toe on the rear of my S2000. On that car...it has to be set up for that setting. But on a FWD car....0 rear toe isnt a big deal. It might cause some highway wandering, though. Still not as unstable as you're thinking.

Not clocking the bushings will ruin them in a period of a few months. That's an expensive and labor intensive thing to be "lazy" about.

vladd

I really have nothing to add on the bushings (I've always heard the same thing on them that B serious is saying about how they suck for street driving), but I have the same suspension as you and it's freaken awesome (Koni yellows all around, Neuspeed Sport springs, Progress 22MM RSB). I have -1.3 degrees of camber in the rear and -1.5 in the front.

What're you guys referring to, when you say "clocking the bushings"? Is that when you wait to tighten everything until the wheels are at the level they'll be at when the car's sitting on the ground?

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Yes, clocking bushings means tightening bushing bolts at ride height. If you're lowering the car...it also means loosening ALL the affected bolts and retightening them at ride height.

For example....the front lower control arm-to chassis bolt (not the compliance bushing...the other one). You don't need to loosen or remove it to install the suspension. But since you're changing heights, you do need to re-clock them at the new height.

Anyone that said suspension installs didn't take time, expertise, amd careful attention to detail was wrong. Its much more involved than slapping springs and shocks on the car.