VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
06-02-2009, 10:01 AM
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VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
Hello everyone. First time poster, and it's a long one so please bear with me as I would like to be as detailed as possible with the history of the car and the issues I'm having with it. I don't have much experience with imports or Hondas in general but I believe I am being jerked around by the local dealer.
My girlfriend has a 2002 Civic EX that is currently on its THIRD transmission. The car was bought brand new and within a month the transmission died and was replaced. Last February (2008) it started acting up again so she took it to the dealership in the town she was living in at the time and they told her there was nothing wrong with it. About two months later (May 2008) it acted up again so she went back and was told it just needed a fluid change even after she explained to them what it was doing and that it did the exact same thing the last time the transmission broke. A week later the issue (what she described as shuttering and hard shifting) started again and on the way back to the dealership it completely quit and had to be towed in. Keep in mind each time the MIL came on. This time they replaced the transmission because once again it was bad. The car at the time had 84,000 miles on it. Today it has 106,000. I realize it's past it's warranty but we have a case manager at Honda Customer Relations assigned to us because of all the prior issues who says we could get a goodwill repair if the transmission is in fact bad.
She has since moved to the town I live in and has a 100 mile commute round trip each day. On the way to work last Wednesday morning she called to tell me the car was doing the shuddering again (she said it only happens when she accelerates) so I told her to go ahead and get to work and I would drive up there in the afternoon to get her. On the way home that afternoon I couldn't make the problem happen for me, but the check engine light was still on from the time it happened that morning. I took it straight to the dealer and explained to the guy who checked us in what she said it had been doing as well as a rundown of the bad transmission history of the car.
Thursday morning I got a call from the dealer saying the code was 1259 (Vtec failure) and that they thought the vtec solenoid was OK but that the car was very low on oil and I had a bad leak coming from my valve cover. He quoted me the outrageous price to replace the valve cover gasket, and also wanted to align the front end, replace the left and right compliance bushings, clean the throttle body, and change the spark plugs. All of these things with the exception of the alignment I could do myself so I asked him a little more about the vtec solenoid (I was oblivious to the way this system worked at the time) and he said that if the oil level is too low that it would cause it to malfunction but that if I kept the oil level up it should be fine. I told him to not touch anything and I would pay the diagnostic fee and come pick the car up.
I got it home without issue and began to inspect the severity of the oil leak they said I had because the car had just had its oil changed the month before and to be that low seemed a little unusual given that the car has never left a drop of oil in our garage floor. I removed everything from the top end until all I would have had to do was remove the 5 bolts holding the cover down and could see NO evidence of an oil leak other than a little moisture around the oil cap and dipstick. There was also some residue on some of the lines directly behind the valve cover near the oil cap. I looked at the undercarriage and it was clean, no oil dripping and no burning oil could be smelled around the engine compartment. This irritated me a little because he told me the gasket needed to be replaced ASAP but I decided to let it be and let her continue to drive it because it seemed like it was going to have to be driven until it completely failed before they would believe us just like last time.
The next day she calls me while on the way home and said it was acting up yet again. I had her park in the driveway with the car still running and I got in so I could finally see what it was doing for myself. I didn't even get a block from my house before, while under normal acceleration from a stop or from a low speed, the transmission slipped out of gear and the engine hit the rev limiter as if the car were in neutral and was sitting still. I say as if it were sitting still because through some experimenting I've figured out that if the car is sitting still the rev-limiter kicks in at about 5000 RPM but if the car is moving the engine will rev right up on to the redline. The check engine light was also on again.
The next morning it drove fine after it had cooled off but I took it back to the dealership anyways. The oil level was still fine when I dropped it off. The guy asked me if I replaced the gasket and when I told him it wasn't leaking bad enough to cause a serious enough oil leak to lose that much oil, and that the oil level is fine he immediately got an attitude with me. I spoke to the assistant service manager before I left to let him know and to explain to him the history of the car. I was told I would hear from them on Monday.
Yesterday I call the dealer and spoke to the service manager. He told me the code came back the same and that I needed to replace the vtec solenoid. He then told me he stood under the car himself and saw oil dripping everywhere along the back of the engine around the filter area and that they had to add a whole quart to it. So now in a period of two days and what was likely some parking lot driving and maybe a short trip down the road, the car lost a quart of oil. He recommended that I go ahead and replace the valve cover gasket and see if the problem goes away. If it doesn't he told me he'd sell me the vtec solenoid so I could replace that and if that didn't work they would take a look at it again. By this time I had learned a little bit about how the Vtec system works but I was still unfamiliar with the components and how they worked together so I asked him to explain to me how a bad solenoid would cause the transmission to slip out before I spent $200 more on parts. He told me the solenoid was connected to the ECM and that if it sent an error code to the ECM it could affect the way the ECM told the transmission to shift.
It seemed like a reasonable explanation at the time based on my ignorance of the vtec system so I agreed to start with the gasket. I drove all over town with the car that day running errands and picking up what I needed to perform the gasket replacement. When I got home, I let it cool and went back out to start the work. There was no oil on the ground and the level was still right where it was when I left the dealership.
While I was waiting on the car to cool I did some research to educate myself on the vtec system and I came across the Honda Service Manual for the car. I read the section on the trouble shooting and removal/inspection of the vtec solenoid and by following the troubleshooting procedure and looking at the way the components are wired I believe I figured out the basic manner in which the system works. According to the troubleshooting procedure, the 1259 code can either be a bad solenoid, valve, or pressure switch yet the dealership, without even going through this procedure, says that code means I need to replace the solenoid.
When the car cooled I took the valve cover off and much to my disgust I STILL saw no evidence that the gasket was leaking. There was no oil anywhere on the head or even anywhere along the timing gear where the RTV could fail and leak. I crawled under the car the best I could (my jacks and jack stands haven't made the trip to our new town yet) and didn't see ANY oil around where they told me that it was just constantly dripping. I was told that even the oil filter itself was covered but it was spotless and I could tell the engine itself hadn't been wiped down because of the road grime still accumulated on it. I went ahead and replaced the gasket but before I put everything back together I wanted to trouble shoot the vtec assembly. The solenoid itself read 19 ohms which was within spec, the switch was closed, and there was 12V at the switches plug when the key was turned on. I removed the assembly and applied 12V to the solenoid and heard it click. I took apart the valve assembly and everything was clean and moving freely. The screen was clean so I put everything back together.
Based on my observations, (and please correct me on this if I am wrong) the vtec system works as follows: when the engine reaches 4000 RPM (or whatever the exact vtec setpoint is) the ECM tells the solenoid to engage. When the solenoid engages the oil pressure causes the valve to open and activate the vtec components. The pressure switch is NC so the oil pressure causes the switch to open and the ECM knows that the vtec is engaged. When the engine drops back below the set point, the reverse happens.
Now if the above is correct, it does not make sense to me how the transmission could slip out of gear when it is UNDER the set point and then hit the 5000 RPM rev limiter as if the car was sitting still. Also, how in the heck can the dealer know that the valve and switch are OK but the solenoid itself is bad based SOLELY on the 1259 code, which could be caused by all three?
Today I took the car for a roughly 60 mile drive, got it home and the oil level is still good and the engine light has not come on yet. Can anyone make sense of this? Is it really possible for the vtec to set a fault code and affect the way transmission SHIFTS? This seems very dangerous to me because I could easily pull into traffic and have the transmission slip again and get hit.
Thanks in advance for your patience in reading this long post and I appreciate any input.
My girlfriend has a 2002 Civic EX that is currently on its THIRD transmission. The car was bought brand new and within a month the transmission died and was replaced. Last February (2008) it started acting up again so she took it to the dealership in the town she was living in at the time and they told her there was nothing wrong with it. About two months later (May 2008) it acted up again so she went back and was told it just needed a fluid change even after she explained to them what it was doing and that it did the exact same thing the last time the transmission broke. A week later the issue (what she described as shuttering and hard shifting) started again and on the way back to the dealership it completely quit and had to be towed in. Keep in mind each time the MIL came on. This time they replaced the transmission because once again it was bad. The car at the time had 84,000 miles on it. Today it has 106,000. I realize it's past it's warranty but we have a case manager at Honda Customer Relations assigned to us because of all the prior issues who says we could get a goodwill repair if the transmission is in fact bad.
She has since moved to the town I live in and has a 100 mile commute round trip each day. On the way to work last Wednesday morning she called to tell me the car was doing the shuddering again (she said it only happens when she accelerates) so I told her to go ahead and get to work and I would drive up there in the afternoon to get her. On the way home that afternoon I couldn't make the problem happen for me, but the check engine light was still on from the time it happened that morning. I took it straight to the dealer and explained to the guy who checked us in what she said it had been doing as well as a rundown of the bad transmission history of the car.
Thursday morning I got a call from the dealer saying the code was 1259 (Vtec failure) and that they thought the vtec solenoid was OK but that the car was very low on oil and I had a bad leak coming from my valve cover. He quoted me the outrageous price to replace the valve cover gasket, and also wanted to align the front end, replace the left and right compliance bushings, clean the throttle body, and change the spark plugs. All of these things with the exception of the alignment I could do myself so I asked him a little more about the vtec solenoid (I was oblivious to the way this system worked at the time) and he said that if the oil level is too low that it would cause it to malfunction but that if I kept the oil level up it should be fine. I told him to not touch anything and I would pay the diagnostic fee and come pick the car up.
I got it home without issue and began to inspect the severity of the oil leak they said I had because the car had just had its oil changed the month before and to be that low seemed a little unusual given that the car has never left a drop of oil in our garage floor. I removed everything from the top end until all I would have had to do was remove the 5 bolts holding the cover down and could see NO evidence of an oil leak other than a little moisture around the oil cap and dipstick. There was also some residue on some of the lines directly behind the valve cover near the oil cap. I looked at the undercarriage and it was clean, no oil dripping and no burning oil could be smelled around the engine compartment. This irritated me a little because he told me the gasket needed to be replaced ASAP but I decided to let it be and let her continue to drive it because it seemed like it was going to have to be driven until it completely failed before they would believe us just like last time.
The next day she calls me while on the way home and said it was acting up yet again. I had her park in the driveway with the car still running and I got in so I could finally see what it was doing for myself. I didn't even get a block from my house before, while under normal acceleration from a stop or from a low speed, the transmission slipped out of gear and the engine hit the rev limiter as if the car were in neutral and was sitting still. I say as if it were sitting still because through some experimenting I've figured out that if the car is sitting still the rev-limiter kicks in at about 5000 RPM but if the car is moving the engine will rev right up on to the redline. The check engine light was also on again.
The next morning it drove fine after it had cooled off but I took it back to the dealership anyways. The oil level was still fine when I dropped it off. The guy asked me if I replaced the gasket and when I told him it wasn't leaking bad enough to cause a serious enough oil leak to lose that much oil, and that the oil level is fine he immediately got an attitude with me. I spoke to the assistant service manager before I left to let him know and to explain to him the history of the car. I was told I would hear from them on Monday.
Yesterday I call the dealer and spoke to the service manager. He told me the code came back the same and that I needed to replace the vtec solenoid. He then told me he stood under the car himself and saw oil dripping everywhere along the back of the engine around the filter area and that they had to add a whole quart to it. So now in a period of two days and what was likely some parking lot driving and maybe a short trip down the road, the car lost a quart of oil. He recommended that I go ahead and replace the valve cover gasket and see if the problem goes away. If it doesn't he told me he'd sell me the vtec solenoid so I could replace that and if that didn't work they would take a look at it again. By this time I had learned a little bit about how the Vtec system works but I was still unfamiliar with the components and how they worked together so I asked him to explain to me how a bad solenoid would cause the transmission to slip out before I spent $200 more on parts. He told me the solenoid was connected to the ECM and that if it sent an error code to the ECM it could affect the way the ECM told the transmission to shift.
It seemed like a reasonable explanation at the time based on my ignorance of the vtec system so I agreed to start with the gasket. I drove all over town with the car that day running errands and picking up what I needed to perform the gasket replacement. When I got home, I let it cool and went back out to start the work. There was no oil on the ground and the level was still right where it was when I left the dealership.
While I was waiting on the car to cool I did some research to educate myself on the vtec system and I came across the Honda Service Manual for the car. I read the section on the trouble shooting and removal/inspection of the vtec solenoid and by following the troubleshooting procedure and looking at the way the components are wired I believe I figured out the basic manner in which the system works. According to the troubleshooting procedure, the 1259 code can either be a bad solenoid, valve, or pressure switch yet the dealership, without even going through this procedure, says that code means I need to replace the solenoid.
When the car cooled I took the valve cover off and much to my disgust I STILL saw no evidence that the gasket was leaking. There was no oil anywhere on the head or even anywhere along the timing gear where the RTV could fail and leak. I crawled under the car the best I could (my jacks and jack stands haven't made the trip to our new town yet) and didn't see ANY oil around where they told me that it was just constantly dripping. I was told that even the oil filter itself was covered but it was spotless and I could tell the engine itself hadn't been wiped down because of the road grime still accumulated on it. I went ahead and replaced the gasket but before I put everything back together I wanted to trouble shoot the vtec assembly. The solenoid itself read 19 ohms which was within spec, the switch was closed, and there was 12V at the switches plug when the key was turned on. I removed the assembly and applied 12V to the solenoid and heard it click. I took apart the valve assembly and everything was clean and moving freely. The screen was clean so I put everything back together.
Based on my observations, (and please correct me on this if I am wrong) the vtec system works as follows: when the engine reaches 4000 RPM (or whatever the exact vtec setpoint is) the ECM tells the solenoid to engage. When the solenoid engages the oil pressure causes the valve to open and activate the vtec components. The pressure switch is NC so the oil pressure causes the switch to open and the ECM knows that the vtec is engaged. When the engine drops back below the set point, the reverse happens.
Now if the above is correct, it does not make sense to me how the transmission could slip out of gear when it is UNDER the set point and then hit the 5000 RPM rev limiter as if the car was sitting still. Also, how in the heck can the dealer know that the valve and switch are OK but the solenoid itself is bad based SOLELY on the 1259 code, which could be caused by all three?
Today I took the car for a roughly 60 mile drive, got it home and the oil level is still good and the engine light has not come on yet. Can anyone make sense of this? Is it really possible for the vtec to set a fault code and affect the way transmission SHIFTS? This seems very dangerous to me because I could easily pull into traffic and have the transmission slip again and get hit.
Thanks in advance for your patience in reading this long post and I appreciate any input.
06-02-2009, 05:17 PM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
in all honesty... your not the mechanic, so stop trying to be one. it is ok to learn about how things work and such but you are doubting another mechanic..let alone the dealership who sees these cars day in and day out.
anotehr thing i found kind of weird is the car has 108k on it now. the car is a civic. whats blue book...4500 to 6000? it seems like your giving alot of grief to mechanics and salespeople. not all mechanics or salespeople are out to "get you". and honestly most arent that way.
to answer your questions...
i suggest moving to another shop for diag of your car. i think it is time you move away from the "free" umbrella of the warranty. whatever is wrong with the car...you should start to pay for it. sounds like your trying to get another transmission and wahtever answer they give you...you dont agree with because you want a transmission.
now you have a check engine light..and your relating it to your transmission. worse yet..it is a vtec code and your still wanting a transmission. its not even a tranny code. it sounds like you have a couple of issues. valve cover leak, vtec solenoid (takje apart and clean the screen would be my first step), tranny or halfshaft issue. so take care of the things you know that are wrong (minus tranny for now) and go from there. if you dont like the idea of certified honda techs working on your car...then go somewhere else. no big deal.
your vtec on your car is different. it engages very low compared to other vtecs and it produces little to no power. it enages somewhere inthe 2500-3200- range and only during wide open throttle (WOT).
anotehr thing i found kind of weird is the car has 108k on it now. the car is a civic. whats blue book...4500 to 6000? it seems like your giving alot of grief to mechanics and salespeople. not all mechanics or salespeople are out to "get you". and honestly most arent that way.
to answer your questions...
i suggest moving to another shop for diag of your car. i think it is time you move away from the "free" umbrella of the warranty. whatever is wrong with the car...you should start to pay for it. sounds like your trying to get another transmission and wahtever answer they give you...you dont agree with because you want a transmission.
now you have a check engine light..and your relating it to your transmission. worse yet..it is a vtec code and your still wanting a transmission. its not even a tranny code. it sounds like you have a couple of issues. valve cover leak, vtec solenoid (takje apart and clean the screen would be my first step), tranny or halfshaft issue. so take care of the things you know that are wrong (minus tranny for now) and go from there. if you dont like the idea of certified honda techs working on your car...then go somewhere else. no big deal.
your vtec on your car is different. it engages very low compared to other vtecs and it produces little to no power. it enages somewhere inthe 2500-3200- range and only during wide open throttle (WOT).
06-02-2009, 05:45 PM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
in all honesty... your not the mechanic, so stop trying to be one. it is ok to learn about how things work and such but you are doubting another mechanic..let alone the dealership who sees these cars day in and day out.
anotehr thing i found kind of weird is the car has 108k on it now. the car is a civic. whats blue book...4500 to 6000? it seems like your giving alot of grief to mechanics and salespeople. not all mechanics or salespeople are out to "get you". and honestly most arent that way.
to answer your questions...
i suggest moving to another shop for diag of your car. i think it is time you move away from the "free" umbrella of the warranty. whatever is wrong with the car...you should start to pay for it. sounds like your trying to get another transmission and wahtever answer they give you...you dont agree with because you want a transmission.
now you have a check engine light..and your relating it to your transmission. worse yet..it is a vtec code and your still wanting a transmission. its not even a tranny code. it sounds like you have a couple of issues. valve cover leak, vtec solenoid (takje apart and clean the screen would be my first step), tranny or halfshaft issue. so take care of the things you know that are wrong (minus tranny for now) and go from there. if you dont like the idea of certified honda techs working on your car...then go somewhere else. no big deal.
your vtec on your car is different. it engages very low compared to other vtecs and it produces little to no power. it enages somewhere inthe 2500-3200- range and only during wide open throttle (WOT).
anotehr thing i found kind of weird is the car has 108k on it now. the car is a civic. whats blue book...4500 to 6000? it seems like your giving alot of grief to mechanics and salespeople. not all mechanics or salespeople are out to "get you". and honestly most arent that way.
to answer your questions...
i suggest moving to another shop for diag of your car. i think it is time you move away from the "free" umbrella of the warranty. whatever is wrong with the car...you should start to pay for it. sounds like your trying to get another transmission and wahtever answer they give you...you dont agree with because you want a transmission.
now you have a check engine light..and your relating it to your transmission. worse yet..it is a vtec code and your still wanting a transmission. its not even a tranny code. it sounds like you have a couple of issues. valve cover leak, vtec solenoid (takje apart and clean the screen would be my first step), tranny or halfshaft issue. so take care of the things you know that are wrong (minus tranny for now) and go from there. if you dont like the idea of certified honda techs working on your car...then go somewhere else. no big deal.
your vtec on your car is different. it engages very low compared to other vtecs and it produces little to no power. it enages somewhere inthe 2500-3200- range and only during wide open throttle (WOT).
Now, let me explain why I'm being the way I am about this. No I am not an ASE certified mechanic. I am however an electrical engineer who has worked on cars all of my life and built and rebuilt many engines. It is the Honda VTEC system that I am unfamiliar with. Looking at the schematics and the troubleshooting procedure, it leads me to believe that there's a good chance the vtec does not affect the transmission but then again I have not been able to find anything showing me how the ECM is programmed...that's why I'm here.
I'm trying to stay under the "free umbrella" for two reasons...
First, because since there is only 25,000 miles on the transmission and it is only a YEAR OLD, Honda has told us they will replace it if that is indeed the problem.
Second because right now I am in school for my masters and because of that I am financially challenged. My girlfriend just graduated pharmacy school and started her first job last week. She has a 100 mile round trip commute and transportation for her right now is vital. This car needs to last her a few more months until her income becomes stable.
Like I said in the original post, the valve cover has been replaced and it wasn't leaking to begin with. As I also mentioend I took the vtec solenoid and valve apart, the screen was clean and the entire assembly passed the troubleshooting process listed in the Honda service manual.
I am not trying to relate an engine code to a transmission problem. I am relating the fact that the transmission SLIPS INTO NEUTRAL while under normal acceleration. The same exact way it has one the previous TWO times it failed. BOTH of those times it threw the same P1259 code and NEITHER of those two times did it throw a transmission code. Were it not for the history of the car and what it is physically doing right now I would not have been this diligent in seeing if something isn't right with this dealership. Taking it to someone else is a good idea and that looks like where I'm at right now. That question has been answered but I would still like someone who is actually familiar with the inner workings of the ECM if the vtec system is tied in to the shifting.
06-02-2009, 05:50 PM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
Well what I am going to say is based on your description being accurate.
In my opinion, it sounds like your car is f'ed up. If you went through 2 tranny's and are now having problems with a third, then there is obviously something wrong. Since Honda is working with you on this deal, they obvious feel the same way or they would have told you "sorry" and to move on. I uneducated guess would be that something is causing your tranny to go bad or you bought an already bad transmission. On a side note, I read that the auto tranny's for our generation have had some problems and many people have had them die "early" (I am assuming by your description that you have an auto). It is quite possible that what you got as replacements were rebuilt or gonna go bad soon anyway.
Based on your story about the mechanic, I would say that you should try another shop. If he told you all this stuff was wrong with your car and you can't find it, let someone else have a shot at it. I will say that you sound like a fairly intelligent person who is able to read a manual and figure out basic troubleshooting. If you can't find oil leaking, then it probably isn't leaking. If the Honda manual says that it could be 3 potential problems, then you have the right to ask about the other two things and not assume that just because some guy with a certificate from Honda says it is the solenoid, then he must be right. If you want some answers, make some calls to Honda dealerships and ask them their opinion. You might be supprised at the different answers you get. Maybe call a shop that deals mainly with Honda/Acura and see if they have a good tech that is willing to help over the phone. Keep at it. You'll get the answer sooner or later.
If all this doesn't work, sell your car and move on with life.
In my opinion, it sounds like your car is f'ed up. If you went through 2 tranny's and are now having problems with a third, then there is obviously something wrong. Since Honda is working with you on this deal, they obvious feel the same way or they would have told you "sorry" and to move on. I uneducated guess would be that something is causing your tranny to go bad or you bought an already bad transmission. On a side note, I read that the auto tranny's for our generation have had some problems and many people have had them die "early" (I am assuming by your description that you have an auto). It is quite possible that what you got as replacements were rebuilt or gonna go bad soon anyway.
Based on your story about the mechanic, I would say that you should try another shop. If he told you all this stuff was wrong with your car and you can't find it, let someone else have a shot at it. I will say that you sound like a fairly intelligent person who is able to read a manual and figure out basic troubleshooting. If you can't find oil leaking, then it probably isn't leaking. If the Honda manual says that it could be 3 potential problems, then you have the right to ask about the other two things and not assume that just because some guy with a certificate from Honda says it is the solenoid, then he must be right. If you want some answers, make some calls to Honda dealerships and ask them their opinion. You might be supprised at the different answers you get. Maybe call a shop that deals mainly with Honda/Acura and see if they have a good tech that is willing to help over the phone. Keep at it. You'll get the answer sooner or later.
If all this doesn't work, sell your car and move on with life.
06-02-2009, 06:08 PM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
yeah..these generation civics 01-05 have tranny problems, they also have front end issues. they also ride bumpy and the engine is noisier then other civics. other then that..they are great cars. basically change the oil and drive them.
i will look into your codes tomorrow while i am at work... i have napafix and alldata there. i did do a quick search on "tranny" on napafix and didint find anything related to shifitng into neutral during accel. i will try searching your codes tomorrow and i might find something.
i will tell you vtec will not engage in neutral, low oil, low oil psi etc... so it is very possible when your tranny slipped into neutral that you were in "vtec mode". (vtec mode would be in drive, wide open throttle and above 2500 rpms). when you were driving your girls car did you meet that criteria? it is very possible that the ecm might have glitched and got confused and threw a code for vtec because of the tranny. but at the same time..they are separate systems
i will look into your codes tomorrow while i am at work... i have napafix and alldata there. i did do a quick search on "tranny" on napafix and didint find anything related to shifitng into neutral during accel. i will try searching your codes tomorrow and i might find something.
i will tell you vtec will not engage in neutral, low oil, low oil psi etc... so it is very possible when your tranny slipped into neutral that you were in "vtec mode". (vtec mode would be in drive, wide open throttle and above 2500 rpms). when you were driving your girls car did you meet that criteria? it is very possible that the ecm might have glitched and got confused and threw a code for vtec because of the tranny. but at the same time..they are separate systems
06-02-2009, 06:12 PM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
TKD,
Thanks for the input. Yes, this is an automatic transmission and am well aware of the 7th gen transmission issues. I even came across a copy of a service bulletin from Honda outlining the issue of early transmission failure. It cited excessive wear in the second clutch as the root cause of the issue.
I definitely agree that this car of her's is f'ed up. Unfortunately with a limited income that goes along with going to school, she has been at the mercy of the dealerships. It would make sense that if a transmission has a certain design flaw, that putting in other Honda transmissions that were all probably reconditioned in the first place would also be flawed. It is also entirely possible that there is some combination of conditions in the way the car is configured that would make the car worse but neither of the three different dealerships that have seen it have been able to figure it out.
There's two other Honda dealerships that are within an hours drive from here so I'm more than likely going to call each of them and take it to the one that seems to be the most willing to take the vtec code blinders off and consider other problems. If by the time I make that drive and it's slipping I will get someone to get in with me right away and take them for a short drive.
New transmission or not, this car is definitely going to be sold within the next six months...just have to keep it rolling that long til the financial situation is different, which is why it's difficult to throw parts and money at it that I feel aren't the problem. If they vtec IS the problem and is causing the slipping, that's fine and I will replace whatever needs replacing in a heartbeat...that's what I need a technician or maybe even a Honda engineer to explain to me. Just telling me "it's an electric component so it can affect everything else" doesn't cut it with someone who designed an ECM for a small block chevy engine as his senior design project in undergrad.
Thanks for the input. Yes, this is an automatic transmission and am well aware of the 7th gen transmission issues. I even came across a copy of a service bulletin from Honda outlining the issue of early transmission failure. It cited excessive wear in the second clutch as the root cause of the issue.
I definitely agree that this car of her's is f'ed up. Unfortunately with a limited income that goes along with going to school, she has been at the mercy of the dealerships. It would make sense that if a transmission has a certain design flaw, that putting in other Honda transmissions that were all probably reconditioned in the first place would also be flawed. It is also entirely possible that there is some combination of conditions in the way the car is configured that would make the car worse but neither of the three different dealerships that have seen it have been able to figure it out.
There's two other Honda dealerships that are within an hours drive from here so I'm more than likely going to call each of them and take it to the one that seems to be the most willing to take the vtec code blinders off and consider other problems. If by the time I make that drive and it's slipping I will get someone to get in with me right away and take them for a short drive.
New transmission or not, this car is definitely going to be sold within the next six months...just have to keep it rolling that long til the financial situation is different, which is why it's difficult to throw parts and money at it that I feel aren't the problem. If they vtec IS the problem and is causing the slipping, that's fine and I will replace whatever needs replacing in a heartbeat...that's what I need a technician or maybe even a Honda engineer to explain to me. Just telling me "it's an electric component so it can affect everything else" doesn't cut it with someone who designed an ECM for a small block chevy engine as his senior design project in undergrad.
06-02-2009, 06:19 PM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
yeah..these generation civics 01-05 have tranny problems, they also have front end issues. they also ride bumpy and the engine is noisier then other civics. other then that..they are great cars. basically change the oil and drive them.
i will look into your codes tomorrow while i am at work... i have napafix and alldata there. i did do a quick search on "tranny" on napafix and didint find anything related to shifitng into neutral during accel. i will try searching your codes tomorrow and i might find something.
i will tell you vtec will not engage in neutral, low oil, low oil psi etc... so it is very possible when your tranny slipped into neutral that you were in "vtec mode". (vtec mode would be in drive, wide open throttle and above 2500 rpms). when you were driving your girls car did you meet that criteria? it is very possible that the ecm might have glitched and got confused and threw a code for vtec because of the tranny. but at the same time..they are separate systems
i will look into your codes tomorrow while i am at work... i have napafix and alldata there. i did do a quick search on "tranny" on napafix and didint find anything related to shifitng into neutral during accel. i will try searching your codes tomorrow and i might find something.
i will tell you vtec will not engage in neutral, low oil, low oil psi etc... so it is very possible when your tranny slipped into neutral that you were in "vtec mode". (vtec mode would be in drive, wide open throttle and above 2500 rpms). when you were driving your girls car did you meet that criteria? it is very possible that the ecm might have glitched and got confused and threw a code for vtec because of the tranny. but at the same time..they are separate systems
You just hit the nail on the head though with what I suspected and what would make more sense to me. Telling me that the systems are independent is exactly what I was after and it is very reasonable that when the engine suddenly spiked in RPM because of lack of a load, the computer got confused and threw a fault code. My issue now would be me, a young "kid" to them, telling the dealership that I think they are wrong about a vtec fault causing a transmission slip and that I believe the slip caused the vtec fault.
I will definitely check in tomorrow to see what you found at work. Thanks again.
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06-02-2009, 06:53 PM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
that 5k rpms rev limiter you are referring to does that in neutral..not just sitting still. so it would make sense if your car slipped into neutral that this rev govenor would kick in.
is the dash showing it is in neutral when the tranny slips?
you getting vibrations in the steering wheel or are the felt on the floor?
is the tranny stick shifting into neutral?
would the car be stranded if it "slips" again?..meaning can you just put it back into drive and drive away?
to much text to look through so sorry if you are repeating yourself
is the dash showing it is in neutral when the tranny slips?
you getting vibrations in the steering wheel or are the felt on the floor?
is the tranny stick shifting into neutral?
would the car be stranded if it "slips" again?..meaning can you just put it back into drive and drive away?
to much text to look through so sorry if you are repeating yourself
06-02-2009, 07:07 PM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
that 5k rpms rev limiter you are referring to does that in neutral..not just sitting still. so it would make sense if your car slipped into neutral that this rev govenor would kick in.
is the dash showing it is in neutral when the tranny slips?
you getting vibrations in the steering wheel or are the felt on the floor?
is the tranny stick shifting into neutral?
would the car be stranded if it "slips" again?..meaning can you just put it back into drive and drive away?
to much text to look through so sorry if you are repeating yourself
is the dash showing it is in neutral when the tranny slips?
you getting vibrations in the steering wheel or are the felt on the floor?
is the tranny stick shifting into neutral?
would the car be stranded if it "slips" again?..meaning can you just put it back into drive and drive away?
to much text to look through so sorry if you are repeating yourself
No, those are all very good questions that I haven't addressed.
I've never tried to hit the rev limiter while in park but the other day I did a little experimenting and while sitting still, if I put it in neutral and gun it, it hits 5000 RPM and bounces on it. If I am rolling even as slow as 10 MPH, put it in neutral and gun it, it shoots up to the red-line region on the tach (7-8K)
I didn't notice what gear the dash was showing when it slipped. Next time I will check that for sure. Physically the shift lever is staying in Drive. I am feeling no vibrations from the wheel or in the floor board...everything is nice and smooth, it feels just as if it gets thrown into neutral while accelerating. If I let off the gas, it catches and is fine. Light feathering of the throttle (wayy less than normal acceleration) will allow the car to continue.
My plan the next time it acts up is to first check the dash indicator. Then I am going to cut the car off and reset the computer if the light is still on then immediately fire it back up and see if the problem goes away.
06-03-2009, 08:29 AM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
I just got off the phone with three different Honda Dealership Service Departments. To each of them I asked to speak to someone who has working knowledge of the Honda Vtec engine because I had a question. I asked all three people I spoke with the general question of if any of the three Vtec components, the solenoid, the valve or switch, were to fail and throw the engine code, could that in any way cause my transmission to slip out of gear under acceleration.
All three said no, all three said I've either got two different problems or the transmission slipping is causing the computer to throw the error code, and two even laughed at me when I asked the question as if it were the most ridiculous question they've ever heard.
All three said no, all three said I've either got two different problems or the transmission slipping is causing the computer to throw the error code, and two even laughed at me when I asked the question as if it were the most ridiculous question they've ever heard.
06-03-2009, 10:25 AM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
this is what napafix says about p01259 vtec malfunction. napafix is basically a diag. method for those weird one of a kind problems that technicians post to get help from former certified technicians that have a very strong knowledge about the posted vehicle.
1. Locate the Variable Timing/Lift Control (VTEC) pressure switch on the end of the cylinder head.
2. The VTEC oil switch is normally closed, and grounds the reference voltage from the Engine Control Module (ECM) on the Blue/Black (BLU/BLK) wire.
3. At approximately 3200 RPM and when driving the vehicle, the VTEC system should turn on. To turn on the system, the ECM energizes the VTEC Solenoid valve and it allows oil pressure into the intake valve rocker arms, the oil pressure opens the VTEC oil pressure switch so the ECM can verify that the VTEC did turn on correctly.
4. The code will set below 3200 RPM if the reference voltage is not grounded. The code will set above 3200 RPM if the VTEC oil switch does not open.
5. If the code sets at 3200-3500 RPM or higher, the problem can be a low oil level or pressure, or a malfunction in the VTEC assembly.
Potential Causes: Low Engine Oil
Plugged Oil Passage
Insufficient Oil Pressure
Plugged Oil Screen
Insufficient Oil Volume
Defective VTEC Solenoid
Tech Tips: When the code P1259 sets at 3200 RPM or higher, always verify that the engine oil level is full. Also, if there is an oil pressure or volume problem, always verify that the oil pan is not pushed up and is too close to the oil pickup tube causing an oil volume problem. Be very careful when supporting the engine with the oil pan
1. Locate the Variable Timing/Lift Control (VTEC) pressure switch on the end of the cylinder head.
2. The VTEC oil switch is normally closed, and grounds the reference voltage from the Engine Control Module (ECM) on the Blue/Black (BLU/BLK) wire.
3. At approximately 3200 RPM and when driving the vehicle, the VTEC system should turn on. To turn on the system, the ECM energizes the VTEC Solenoid valve and it allows oil pressure into the intake valve rocker arms, the oil pressure opens the VTEC oil pressure switch so the ECM can verify that the VTEC did turn on correctly.
4. The code will set below 3200 RPM if the reference voltage is not grounded. The code will set above 3200 RPM if the VTEC oil switch does not open.
5. If the code sets at 3200-3500 RPM or higher, the problem can be a low oil level or pressure, or a malfunction in the VTEC assembly.
Potential Causes: Low Engine Oil
Plugged Oil Passage
Insufficient Oil Pressure
Plugged Oil Screen
Insufficient Oil Volume
Defective VTEC Solenoid
Tech Tips: When the code P1259 sets at 3200 RPM or higher, always verify that the engine oil level is full. Also, if there is an oil pressure or volume problem, always verify that the oil pan is not pushed up and is too close to the oil pickup tube causing an oil volume problem. Be very careful when supporting the engine with the oil pan
06-03-2009, 10:26 AM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
do you remember the old tranny codes?
2002 Honda Civic LX 1.7L
Customer Concern: The check engine light is on with trouble codes P0700 and P0715 after the vehicle hit a deer. Also the transmission slips.
Tests/Procedures:
1. Check the main shaft speed sensor connection and verify that the resistance is 400-600 ohms.
2. Check the wire harness from the main shaft speed sensor to the Engine Control Module (ECM). It may be necessary to verify that there is a good connection at the ECM. If possible, watch the main shaft speed sensor on a scan tool to verify operation.
3. Check the transmission for burnt fluid and excessive metal. Also check the pressure control solenoid for signs of metal. Look for a sticking or damaged shift solenoid that would not allow the solenoid to work mechanically. If the Automatic Transmission (A/T) slips internally, it will set a main shaft speed sensor code.
Potential Causes: Slipping Automatic Transmission
Connector
Main Shaft Speed Sensor Wire Harness
Tech Tips: If a Honda sets a speed sensor code, 90% of the time, the problem is an internal transmission problem (slipping).
Diagnostic Codes: P0715
2002 Honda Civic LX 1.7L
Customer Concern: The check engine light is on with trouble codes P0700 and P0715 after the vehicle hit a deer. Also the transmission slips.
Tests/Procedures:
1. Check the main shaft speed sensor connection and verify that the resistance is 400-600 ohms.
2. Check the wire harness from the main shaft speed sensor to the Engine Control Module (ECM). It may be necessary to verify that there is a good connection at the ECM. If possible, watch the main shaft speed sensor on a scan tool to verify operation.
3. Check the transmission for burnt fluid and excessive metal. Also check the pressure control solenoid for signs of metal. Look for a sticking or damaged shift solenoid that would not allow the solenoid to work mechanically. If the Automatic Transmission (A/T) slips internally, it will set a main shaft speed sensor code.
Potential Causes: Slipping Automatic Transmission
Connector
Main Shaft Speed Sensor Wire Harness
Tech Tips: If a Honda sets a speed sensor code, 90% of the time, the problem is an internal transmission problem (slipping).
Diagnostic Codes: P0715
06-03-2009, 11:20 AM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
Thanks, that is some good information. I will definitely look into the ECM connections. Oddly enough the transmission has NEVER thrown a code on either of the previous two failures. As far as the Napafix information goes, that looks very similar to the troubleshooting procedure that is outlined in the Honda service manual. I went through the entire procedure step by step that included checking the resistance of the solenoid, the continuity of the switch, checking voltages at the plug end terminals, and even hooking up an oil pressure gauge in line with the switch and running through a procedure to check the oil pressure. It all checked out OK. I also took apart the entire assembly afterwards and all the mechanical parts seemed to move freely and the screen and ports were all free and clear.
06-04-2009, 02:56 PM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
i will also inform you that the dealer isnt the only one that does dealer warranty. Our independant shop takes care of dealer warrantys and im sure we are not the only one that does this. smaller shops would love to do all the hassle for you in regards to your transmission issue. just a thought since most dealers will look the other way sometimes.
06-04-2009, 08:36 PM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
hey just curious since i didnt see anything about it... how's the tranny fluid looking? is it full, does it look/smell burnt, is it really runny? i know it's a long shot but maybe your tranny is getting to hot, which is causing it to slip? might need to ad an aftermarket tranny cooler if that is the problem.
06-08-2009, 09:06 AM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
hey just curious since i didnt see anything about it... how's the tranny fluid looking? is it full, does it look/smell burnt, is it really runny? i know it's a long shot but maybe your tranny is getting to hot, which is causing it to slip? might need to ad an aftermarket tranny cooler if that is the problem.
06-08-2009, 09:20 AM
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Re: VTEC System Causing Transmission Issues??!?
really depends on where the OP lives and such. hilly, mountainy, any towing (lol at towing but i have seen it done), hot climates and such.
where do you live argogator88?
where do you live argogator88?
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