johnnyb588

Hello all,

Preface, I'm a pretty big noob when it comes to cars. Biggest jobs I've ever taken on was ball joints on my Tacoma and an axle on my accord. If I use incorrect terminology or just seem utterly clueless, feel free to correct me.

My 2004 Accord 6MT (185k miles, re-man tranny at 160k) has developed a ticking noise that speeds up and slows down with the RPMs. It moves with the engine, regardless of whether or not the car is in gear, so I suspect it's engine-related, not transmission. Based on the research I've done on Honda-tech and the rest of the net, I think it's a valvetrain issue. I have owned the car since 32k, and the valves have never been adjusted. I also have no record of the last time the injectors, ignition coils, or spark plugs were replaced.

I can post a vid later today if you think it might help, but in my experience, the audio on vids always ends up being muffled, and the only suggestions people really give are "use a screwdriver or a stethoscope to narrow it down."

I just bought some Techron and some Seafoam (haven't used either yet). My plan of attack was to use the Techron first to see if that solves it. If that didn't, I was going to open up the engine, inspect, and adjust the valves.

Here's where I have a couple of questions

1. Given the above history, is there anything else I should inspect/replace while in there? I know my at least a couple of my ignition coils have shown some arcing and have been patched up with electrical tape for the time being.
2. I know I'm going to need a feeler gauge to adjust the valves, but I'm a little unclear on what thickness I need. I have the Haynes repair manual, and it states valve adjustment thicknesses in terms of intake and exhaust and gives a range. First, which is the intake side and which is the exhaust side (I told you I'm a noob). Second, the intake range is 0.20mm-0.22mm and the exhaust range is 0.28mm-0.32mm. Should I aim for the bottom of the range, the middle, or the top? Or are these numbers so small it won't really matter?
3. I need a good socket set for cheap (less than $200). I would buy either new or used, but I figure I can get a lot more for my money used. Just looking for suggestions on a complete set that won't leave me searching for new sockets/extensions every two minutes during repairs.
4. I bought the Seafoam as a possibility due to some people swearing by it (I know many hate it, and I am VERY apprehensive of any additives). I've heard from dozens of sources it can work wonders for valve issues. Any tips or tricks or special methods of treatment? Or, if I decide to do it if the Techron and adjustments fail to solve my problem, should I just use the recommended method for applying?

If you think I'm way off on anything or that this might not be a valve problem, feel free to let me know. I'm open to any thoughts because your knowledge is undoubtedly far greater than my own. As you can probably tell from my post, my ideas are all over the place.

As always, thanks for any help you can offer.

BLKFLSH

It would help to have a video or sound clip of this noise. A couple questions I didn't see answered are was the timing belt changed, and was the tensioner changed at that time? Since you say 6speed MT, I assume you have a V6 engine. The intake valves would be toward the intake (inside) of the engine, and the exhaust valves would be to the exhaust side (outside toward firewall and radiator). The exhaust valves tend to tighten over time, so I adjusted them to the high side of the range. The intake valves tend to loosen, so I adjusted them to the low side. Ericthecarguy.com may have a video on setting the valves on a J series engine. I don't think any additives (techron or Seafoam) will do much at all, and I don't use them.

johnnyb588

Timing belt was replaced at 105k. I know the water pump was also replaced at that time, but I can't say I'm aware of whether or not the tensioner was changed. My guess would be no on the tensioner being new.

And you're correct about it being a V6. Thanks for the tip on intake/exhaust. That was what my intuition and limited mechanical knowledge told me, but I just wanted to be certain. I was unaware of the "exhaust valves tighten/intake valves loosen" principle, so that's another very helpful bit of info.

I can post a vid later. I'll try to get decent audio out of it, but the best I've got on hand is my cell phone.

johnnyb588

Here's a link to a video I just shot of the noise. I didn't so the stethoscope or screwdriver test, but it's pretty apparent that it's cylinder 1 (closest to passenger door) that's having the issues. This was on a cold start after sitting a couple days.

20140811 2004 V6 6MT Honda Accord ticking: http://youtu.be/Fwm1U89JoDY

BLKFLSH

That sounds like it could be a bad exhaust leak at or near the head (probably rear). Has the exhaust been worked on? I would check for leaks in the exhaust first.

johnnyb588

The exhaust hasn't been worked on since I got the car in '06 with 32k miles. The previous owner installed a Comptech exhaust system (still installed) and took out the cats (were replaced).

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, do you think it's a crack in the upper manifold? What's the best way to go about testing for exhaust leaks? Would I actually be able to see a crack, or am I going to need to use other methods?

The car was running rough a few months ago after a radiator hose blew and the engine overheated. I caught it quickly, and it didn't run hot for more than a couple minutes, but after that incident, my mechanic noticed arcing from one of the ignition coils. It's patched right now with some electrical tape. Ever since the transmission was replaced, the tick was present, the overheating exacerbated the problem and also introduced a gurgle when the car turns off, and a few days ago the ticking went up another notch on its own.

I'm just frustrated with this car right now. Tranny gone at 160k, radiator hose blowing could have (and maybe did) destroy my engine, bad ignition coils, unknown ticking... I just want to rip the thing apart and figure out what these issues are, but it's hard to even know where to start.

BLKFLSH

Now I'm thinking you may have a blown gasket. Is there any evidence of oil in the coolant, or coolant in the oil? I think some people use smoke to find an exhaust leak. Maybe take a big puff on a cigar, and blow the smoke around the exhaust, if there is a leak it should blow the smoke away from wherever the leak is. This could work on the firewall side of the engine, but it would probably not work well on the front side, with the fans on. I've found leaks on an exhaust with my hand before, but you have to start the engine cold, and find the leak quickly, before the exhaust gets too hot, and that doesn't take long. Good luck

johnnyb588

Sorry, ignore the "gurgle" comment. I searched the forums for "gurgle" and what I'm hearing is definitely not what most people associate with that sound. What I'm talking about is that my engine seems to slow down and almost chug once or twice when I turn it off. Gurgling was the wrong choice of words.

No evidence of coolant in the oil.

BLKFLSH

That's a good sign, but we still don't know where the sound is coming from. Have you checked the spark plugs? The #5 plug (middle front) is famous for blowing out of the head. If so, I would try to see if there are exhaust leaks next. I'm no mechanic, but that's what I would do. I had an exhaust leak on a truck, where the exhaust manifold turns from 4 pipes and connects to the single pipe, and it made a loud ticking sound. The same sort of sound could be made by other things too, I suppose. I bought an engine stethoscope for about $10, and it helped me narrow down the source of my timing belt noise. Good luck with your issues.

johnnyb588

Anybody else have any opinions based on the video or my description?

I'm going to start ripping her apart tonight, and I'll update the thread with my findings.

BLKFLSH

Good luck. I would try to narrow it down, if I could. Has the engine lost power, along with this noise?

johnnyb588

I wouldn't say I've noticed a power loss. Everything *feels* the same.

However, I am halfway convinced that my fuel economy has dipped about 10% in the past two months or so. I usually get 30-32 mpg, NEVER below 28, and there have been a couple tanks recently where I have been in the 26's. Immediately after an oil change, my next tank was 30mpg, then the next few tanks have been back to 26-27mpg. I'm not sure if that 30 was a result of the oil change of me babying the car for that tank. One tank isn't really enough to draw a conclusion. However, 9 of my past 10 fillups have been the worst gas mileage I've ever had with this car.

johnnyb588

I'm going very slowly. I had about two hours to work on the car last night, and being my first tear-down, I wanted to make sure I didn't screw things up along the way.

So far, I managed to get the upper intake manifold off.

I can't post pics where I am, but I have another question. How much oil should be in the upper intake plenum? By my estimation, there's not much in mine. It's just a light coat of oil throughout. Also, I have some mild carbon (?) deposits in the lower intake manifold. Definitely not extreme based on what I've seen in other pics on the web, but should there be any deposits at all?

Hopefully tonight I'll be able to complete the valve adjustment.

VeeSykkz

I havent read anything here, but could it be the lost motion assembly youre hearing?

johnnyb588

I suppose it's possible. Replacing LMA's has worked for some people in solving engine noise problems. I think I'm going to forego LMA replacement for the time being, and try to eliminate this issue one step at a time. If I put it all back together and it's still ticking, LMA's might be next on the list.

Btw, I'm still waiting on a couple of components, which is why this process is taking me so long. Yesterday, I finished taking everything apart, and I have one more quick question.

Does it matter if I adjust the valves on the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke? My intuition would lead me to believe it doesn't matter, but I'd like to get some other input besides my "gut."

johnnyb588

I just finished putting humpty dumpty back together again. I can't really test drive at the moment, but I will give her a go in the morning and update with results. There was only one valve that was in serious need of adjustment, and it was nowhere near the source of the noise. My guess is that the valve adjustment didn't fix the problem.

johnnyb588

UPDATE:

As I feared, the ticking is not completely gone. It is MUCH better, but not cured.

I put everything back together last night after doing the valve adjustment, put in new ignition coils, gaskets, and spark plugs, and she's running like a beauty. It scared the crap out of me the first time I took it our for a test drive because the car was in limp mode. Turns out I didn't securely plug in the PCV connector.

Anyway, this has been crazy fun for me. I've never done anything like this, so I learned a lot. I'm a little bummed my problem isn't totally solved, but such is life when you're drive a car with nearly 200k, right?

Feel free to throw out any more ideas if you guys have them, otherwise I'll just keep this thread updated if there's anything new to add.

Thanks to all of who offered their advice!

Almighty-Si

Noise is more than likely the bottom end. The pistons have a coating on the skirts and as they wear away they make a ticking noise. If you have access to a borescope you could pull a plug and use the tool to take a look at the cylinder walls. If you see any scoring, you will need pistons and a hone. If you don't have a scope the only real way to check is to remove the cylinder head.

johnnyb588

Assuming it is the lower end, what am I likely to be looking at for longevity? I'm pretty much at the point where I might just drive the thing till it dies anyway because it's been such a PITA lately. I realize you'd just be taking a stab without seeing and confirming a diagnosis, but are we looking at 5k miles of life, 10k, 20k, 50k, could just chug along fine forever even with scoring?

Almighty-Si

It's the lower end for sure. I actually just swapped a short block at work on Friday for this same issue. As for longevity, I really couldn't say. The few that I have had were running just fine, just had the noise but I'm sure it was only a matter of time until the piston scored the walls enough and allowed enough blow by to start causing a misfire.

Best bet, before you get to that point would be a rebuild. If it's not bad now a simple hone and replacement of pistons is all you will need. If it gets worse, you will have to have the motor pulled and oversized pistons, bore and hone will need to be done.

If you think it's not worth the fix I would start looking into buying a new car and let the dealership you trade the car too, worry about the noise.

johnnyb588

Just had a mechanic look at it yesterday actually. He said valve train. I thought valve train, but was hoping the adjustment would fix it (it didn't).

Most votes are for valve train. I'm going to ride with that guess and hope nothing goes catastrophically wrong in the meantime. I'm not interested in doing a rebuild (if I really wanted to keep this car alive, I'd just do a swap instead).

I don't typically buy from dealerships, and I don't feel like passing a car on in the private market that might die at any moment. I'll just run with the risk and replace it when I have to.

Almighty-Si

Any update?

johnnyb588

So far so good. The ticking was first present at about 160k when the first transmission got replaced. It got noticeably louder at about 185k. I'm now at about 189k, and it's still going strong. That's 4k miles since the ticking volume increased, and there have been no further issues to report.

I have had one mechanic look at it in person, and he believed it to be valve noise that I shouldn't be concerned about. I might eventually have another mechanic I trust take a look, but I'm not really certain if I would fix any problems if that mechanic decides it's something else.

This car has had a very bad run since 150k, and I don't feel like pouring any more cash into it.