johnsc2235

As far as the rings all being aligned... That's a total bs story... Do you really think all of these engine have the rings all aligned perfectly so this would happen? Very very unlikely and of all those I've done the rings were spaced, not aligned like the bulletin states. That's just Hondas way of getting around things and not admitting to their fault.

johnsc2235

And yes replacing the plugs is a band aid

johnsc2235

And to the guy asking about if honda monitors these boards?? Possibly but they are not about to say yeah we messed up..bring it in and we will cover the bill..highly unlikely unless you put up a huge stink....

GoLowDrew

See post #23 on this thread on a letter he wrote. And you can find more information on line. When you reach that level of frustration, send it to everyone.

Does Honda monitor this forum? Yes, and no. Many years ago, there was the threatening letter from Honda wanting to shut this place down. Trademark rights, etc, etc.

Honda and Honda blue was representing Honda, and they didn't like it.

They got other forums to change their name. So you have forms like Piloteers.com (for Honda Pilots).

And we do have members that work for Honda. But they often don't show themselves and are here as an enthusiast, so don't count on them to do anything (because it's not their job.)

chavezja03

I have a 2007 Accord V6 and my wife came home today with the check engine light on. I took it to Autozone and had it checked out. I have a #5 cylinder misfire. When I got home I took out #5 coil and it was covered in crusty oil. I took out the spark plug and it looked fine. I decided to take a look at another spark plug and noticed the threads on it were gold in color compared to the #5 plug which looked grey in color. There wasn't any oil residue on the #5 plug so I didn't think it was bad until I took another one out and noticed the difference in color. The spring in the #5 coil was broken and sitting on the top of the plug. When I went to install the #5 plug back in it got tight then loosened. I was never able to get it tight. This led me to believe that somehow the threads were damaged due to the oil leakage. Not really sure how this would happen. Nonetheless I continued to reinstall everything and run the engine to see if it was going to misfire even worse. It doesn't feel any different than before I took it apart. The misfire was barely noticeable before I had Autozone check it out. Anyone ever heard of oil getting into the coil?

Wiley75

If the rings were rotating and the ring gaps were aligning how would that not be Honda's fault? I don't understand your logic.

OK. So. If Honda's description in the SB is wrong, then what is causing the problem? Why is it only on some cylinders? If it's just a crappy engine design then how come all of the 3.5L engines don't foul plugs? Also, you suggested to others previously that they change their oil more frequently. So you are saying that oil fouled spark plugs would be avoided with more frequent oil changes? How's that?

Seems to me that Honda has some type of mfg problem on certain engines and they are more or less stepping up and fixing it thru warranty claims and goodwill claims. Ford and Chevy don't do that..... trust me.

The sky is not falling

johnsc2235

Wiley

Im not saying that the rings rotating is not their fault, what Im saying is that is not the reason this is happening. Also why don't all 3.5l engines foul plugs/have issues....Here is the logic and proof behind that all which also leads to oil changes..

Only the V6 engines with the VCM seem to have the issues and it is only in cylinders 1-4 and typically just one of those cylinders is having the issue. When it goes into eco mode it will shut down either 2 or 3 cylinders, thus they build up with carbon, deposits ect. Also the rings are slightly too small and can wear premuturely due to this and lack of oil/
lubrication. Carbon builds up heat, so does lack of lubrication (oil) both will cause rings
to wear quicker, so the end result is piston ring wear which leads to oil consumption....
We have never seen a VCM V6 have an issue that has had a good oil change history (such as every 3500-4500). We see it frequently on cars that have VCM V6 with poor history (7000-10000) oil changes may not fix the issue however it seems to us that we do not see the issues on cars that have oil changes frequently...to me thats proof enough..Plus the Honda engineers and Teachers at Honda training facilities have also indicated that to us.

Im not saying the sky is falling but Honda reliability is. Ive worked for them long enough to see the quailty issue that they are having. Yes for the most part they are stepping up and fixing some of the issues but screwing the people fixing the issues for them....
We never had engine issues...transmission issues yes but not engine issues and now we do.....

johnsc2235

chavez
p0305 tends to happen when the plug in cylinder 5 backs out of the head and blowby gases heat up and melt the coil pack. 8-10 times the best fix for that is to remove the head and have a head shop re thread the plug hole in cylinder 5 and replace the coil.
Its expensive and a lot of work. You could try a time sert in that cylinder but do so at your own risk as the material can and will fall down into they cylinder and can damage that hole/piston/ ect.

kevin512

In my case, I had oil consumption issues from Day 1. It got worse around 60K miles.

Here is my oil change interval (typically changed when MM hits 15%, with a couple of oil changes done before that).

1. 7965
2. 4421
3. 7888
4. 7943
5. 7691
6. 7643
7. 7397
8. 7832
9. 5978

johnsc2235

Kevin
1 qt every 5k is probably pretty typical for any manufacture, rarely will you not use a quart within 5-6k... Oil breaks down starting as soon as it goes into the engine and is well worn by 3000 miles. But if you rarely check it or is low by the time you check it it's already too late. Oil is cheap insurance if you know what I mean....mm is a joke. Ask any good tech that's been working on cars the past 20years and we will always say the same thing. Oil is cheap..engines are not.. Pay a little now or a lot more later....
Most manufactures state that oil consumption of 1 qt every 2-3k is "normal" believe it or not.

kevin512

Johnsc2235 -- I appreciate your input. I guess I'll stop using MM to schedule my oil changes. You aren't the first person to tell me that burning oil is "normal", I'm just having a hard time getting used to that idea. The last car I owned that burned oil was a 1986 Olds Cutlass. I've had three other GM cars, a Ford, a Nissan, and another Honda since then and none of them used a measurable amount of oil and those cars had anywhere from 140K - 220K miles. Now at 65K miles I am using a quart every 1,500 miles on my V6 Honda. I could have lived with a quart every 5K miles, but I am concerned with the current oil consumption because it has already left me stranded once with fouled plugs.

I'll keep pushing Honda to fix the problem.

BLKFLSH

My niece had a 2010 Accord V6 coupe (with VCM). The first time she came over with it I was checking it out, and was shocked when the dipstick showed she was a quart and a half low. The car only had 4000 miles on it TOTAL. I know some people say oil consumption is normal, but my 03 V6 has never consumed a noticeable amount of oil, even when I do go 5000 miles between changes. She still had the car up until about a year ago, when it was totaled in an accident, and she said she didn't have any real problems with it, but I don't know how true that is.

johnsc2235

Kinda says it all here....

Wiley75

Yup. Internal combustion engines require the oil level to be checked every once in a while. Doesn't matter if it's a gasoline Honda automotive engine or a 100,000 horsepower bunker fuel marine propulsion engine. People who think that the maintenance minder is an indicator of oil level rather than oil life are sadly mistaken. Kudos to Honda for stepping up and helping many of these folks via policy and goodwill claims.

Mechanic

JohnSC2235: IMHO, you, sir, are providing a much-needed public service with your posts reflecting your insight and experience regarding the problems with Honda's VCM V-6.

I always questioned Honda's decision to adopt variable cylinder management (VCM) as a fleet-wide fuel saving strategy. GM tried something similar in the '80s, and it certainly didn't work for them. The combination of dirty oil and "cold" cylinders is just a fundamentially bad design, and frankly the fact that the (neglected?) engines make it 60k miles before the problems become obvious is, in a way, remarkable.

GoLowDrew

Yes, the GM V8-6-4 was typical GM 80s. But cylinder deactivation is still being used by GM. Chrysler have been using it since 2005 (?). Same with Benz and Audi. The Germans brands don't say much because rich people don't care about MPG, but these cars still have to meet CAFE. I believe Honda started at the same time (2005?). I also do follow the Chrysler 5.7 Hemi V8 with MDS (cylinder deactivation), and it has been a rock solid engine in both the LX cars and Ram trucks, without oil consumption being a (notable) issue.

Honda, like Toyota, got caught with their pants down. We can blame cost cutting. Honda failed to make sure their products live up to their legendary reputation.

There is nothing wrong with VCM technology. It's popular and in more cars than I can keep track of. Look for much more in the future.

Honda, just have to get it right. A new V6 should be up to replace the J-series. We can hope.

Wiley75

Perhaps my glass is half full instead of half empty but I don't even think it's an across the board problem with the VCM 3.5 liters. If it was then we all would have this problem. I own two of them, and each car sees drastically different duty (one in nothing but city driving and one in nothing but highway). Neither car burns a drop of oil or fouls plugs. But other people have had horrible issues. The service letter stated that only certain VINs were affected. I know that other people on this thread don't want to believe that and feel that there is a larger conspiracy or cover-up going on by Honda. But to me this really smells like some type of manufacturing problem, not really a overall design issue. I work for a diesel engine company and I've seen some crazy stuff happen when tooling is screwed up on the engine assembly line, generating service letters just like this one, with only certain serial numbers being affected. I guess for those that are unlucky and have plug fouling/oil consumption issues the answer is to keep bugging their Honda dealer and American Honda. The squeaky wheel will get the grease as they say....

kl_detto

I received a letter just the other day from Honda describing the litigation on this subject. Its not specific to any certain VIN#, it looks across the board to me on several different models with the VCM V6. 08-12 Accords, 08-13 Odyssey, 09-13 Pilot, 10-12 Accord crosstour. Looks like the settlement will be decided on March 21, 2014.

kl_detto

Here's a photo of the letter.

drautox

I noticed it was mentioned that a firmware update was installed when plugs were changed. Does anyone know exactly what this does? Were these changes incorporated in later models? I am suspecting that they may change the window of operation of the VCM, decreasing the risk of the misfire problem, but also decreasing the CAFE mileage numbers. Is it possible that this is why the spec oil in the 2012 Accords is 0w-20, not 5w-30, to compensate for the cutback on VCM operation? Is VCM the same on 2014 V6 Honda products, and exactly how may its operation differ so as to minimize this issue?
I have asked several mechanics, and they all felt that 7-15k miles is far too long for any oil change. If the cold cylinders cause the remaining 3 or 4 to run hot, they may cause oil breakdown sooner than in a non-VCM engine, just as in a turbocharged engine, and may require more frequent oil changes.
My 2012 V6 runs just great. It pains me to think that there may be trouble down the line, and there is nothing I can do to prevent it. More frequent oil changes? Sounds good to me.

GoLowDrew

The program update makes VCM kicks in later. The exact word is "less sensitive." On my Odyssey, I have not notice anything change in MPG, maybe consistently 1 MPG less in mix driving. But that could be anything. On all hwy- no change. In fact, I actually got 1 MPG better and set a new record. Yes, have record of 90% of all my gas fill ups for the past 4 years. Used to be 99%.

If your engine is fine, then the engine in terms of oil consumption will be fine. Both my J35 V6 are fine. One use a bit more oil than other (as I mentioned somewhere here). But fine overall.

The spark plug thing is separate IMO. It happened to my Odyssey, but that's the engine that almost burn no oil between changes.

My Accord uses about 3/4 qt between changes 6-7K miles and, so far, no spark plug issues.

Acrdr

Why do you guys change oil on such long intervals?
I thing 5k on oil change is max

CM6

The maintenance minder on Hondas will go for much longer than 5000 miles, assuming regular driving. No need to change it before the light comes on. Modern oil is plenty well produced to last longer than 3 or 5000 miles. This is especially true for people using synthetic oil.

That doesn't stop me from changing mine every 2-2500 but I like to drive my car hard.

johnsc2235

Some of the problems are because most people are lazy and do not check their oil like their book describes. Oil is only as good as the additives in it and once they break down oil turns corrosive, once that happens it starts using oil. Also the lighter weight oils help with fuel economy but they don't lubricate as well either, so it is a trade off, thus it will also burn it quicker...you need to check you oil if you are going to go off the maintance minder and add when needed, no matter what. If you say or think that "Hey the maintance minder says I dont have to change it yet Im at 20% but the oil level is low" ADD OIL!! It doesn't say that it wont use oil, any car will use oil over time, and at a faster rate once the oil is worn out....So you have to use common sense. Lots of other manufactures state oil consumption is normal and 1qt every 1000 miles is normal, so if that is correct, by the time your engine hits 5000 miles, you might not have any oil in your car, even if the maintance minder says your at 40% or what ever, it is not a oil level sensor, You must check your oil.......Honda is going to go with direct injection across the board soon, so there goes another set of issues we may have because other manufactures are seeing issues with carbon build up on the back of the valves since they dont get washed off. Then the chunks fall off into the engine and damage the cylinder walls and the engine starts using oil then....Only time will tell..

Acrdr

Honda also recommended trans service every100k years ago
Then they changed it to 60k then 30k
Because of problems
I change my atf every 15-20k