smithly

Brand New to the forum. Needing some help diagnosing an air conditioner problem. I have a 2006 Honda Accord LX-SE 4 Dr w/ 2.4L and no dual climate control. I have never serviced the A/C until now.
A shop said they topped off the system a few days ago w/ 134a, and it worked for a day or so, but now having the same problem.
It blows cold most of the time, then every now and then, it blows warm for a while, then back cold again. I borrowed some 134a A/C gauges since the last time I attempted A/C work was in the R-12 days and my old hoses need new seals. This is what I found....
I still had my Halogen detector from my R12 days (long time ago). I got it to detect some 134a where it leaked out when I connected the gauges, so I figured it still worked and works on 134a as well. I sniffed every connection and no leaks detected at all and no signs of moist connections or dust collection / oil stains, so I don't think I have any leaks.
Outside Temp was 75F and very humid (94%) in Louisiana.
Put A/C on Max A/C w/ High Fan and A/C blew very cold at 38-42F.
System pressures were 25 psi on low side and 150 psi on high side at idle (~750 rpm). Worked for a long time at idle.
Rev engine to about 2500 rpm and low side starts to drop to around 18 psi and high side went up to about 175 psi and still blowing very cold at 42F in cab.
Continue 2200 rpm and low side continues dropping very slowly. When low side gets to about 15 psi, high side around 180-190 psi, compressor kicks off and cab air gets very warm (b/c compressor is not activated... No A/C).
Let car idle again and low side pressure starts to climb. At about 55 psi on low side and 100 psi on high side, compressor kicks back on and then low side goes back down to 25 psi and high side at 150 psi and cab back to 40F.
I'm thinking it is just low on Freon, even though the shop said they charged it. I'm thinking that the low side should normally be closer to 35 psi. I'm not sure what high side should be.
Both radiator / condenser fans run continuously whether the compressor is running or not when on Max high.
Seems to stay blowing cold (compressor stays on) when idling. Once engine revs up and low side gets too low, it cuts off the compressor and air starts getting hot.


Both low and high side seem to be too low on pressure.


Do I just add 134a until low side gets to 30 psi? Or does this sound like a sticking closed or open Expansion Valve or Compressor getting weak / worn or bad Pressure Switch?

sytntyt

If your cabin Temps are in the low 40s I would say your ac charge is most likely fine. And if your low side goes down and high side goes up when the rpm is raised that shows you the compressor is pumping. I would probably look at the coil or coil relay having an intermittent open. When the compresso kicks off and it starts blowing warm, you can swap the coil relay with the Condenser relaY. Or try applying pressure in the coil relay to see if it gets unstuck. If its.still off at this point check for.voltage at the connector to compressor. If you have voltage there then you have a bad coil.

smithly

Update....
Well I changed all the O-Rings except the Expansion Valve O-rings (Was trying to avoid that lengthy job!). I decided to change the drier before I vacuum and recharged it, in case it was moisture causing the problems. I had to pull the condenser out from behind the radiator to change the drier (it was attached to the side of the condenser). I knew I would change all the condenser O-rings, so I took the advice to change all the compressor O-rings, since the compressor gets hot enough to deteriorate O-rings over time. There was only one O-ring left after that (coupler connection on the low pressure line), so I just changed it too. So now they are all new except the expansion valve O-rings. I also changed the compressor relief valve O-ring. I also changed both Schrader Valves. I shouldn't have to worry about 10 yr old O-rings for a long time (except the expansion valve).

I oiled all the O-ring with Ether 100 and clean hands.

I also replaced the cabin air filter (it was dirty) and blew out the drain line from under the car.

Drier only holds 1/3 Oz. I let all the Freon out in a sealed clear cup. Not much oil came out in the cup. I put 3/4 Fl Oz of PAG 46 to account for 1/3 Fl Oz for replacing drier and some minimal losses to evacuate in cup although it had no real level in sealed cup after I let the Freon out to replace Drier.

At that time, I still needed to measure the clutch gap to have an idea what that is like. I still have to get a dial indicator.

Pulled a vacuum on it for about an hour and a half now and it held for almost an hour when I cut off the vacuum pump.

I finally figured out that 1 Lb of 134a = 16 Oz of 134a. The label under the hood said 17.6 min to 19.4 max Oz., so that would be 1.1 min to 1.2 max Lbs of 134a. That's what I told them to put. Their machine only took input in Lbs.

After doing all that work and vacuuming and recharging, it is still doing the same thing. The shop said they tapped on the clutch when it wouldn't engage and it kicked in. Looks like I need to purchase a dial indicator and check the gap and reshim while still connected to my AC lines so I don't have to recharge. I found the clutch gap check procedure in the Accord Service Manual.

Do I have to purchase a special tool to hold the pulley (or clutch?) while I unbolt the center bolt???? And then where is a good place to buy shims? Are those shims common to any auto parts store like NAPA or is that unique to an AC shop or only online? Thanks for all the help!!

I sure am learning a lot quickly!! Thanks for all the help!!

smithly

Figured I would post this to help others. This from my Honda Accord Service Manual....
Measure the clearance between the pulley (A) and the pressure plate (B) with a
dial indicator. Zero out the indicator, then apply battery voltage to the A/C compressor clutch. Measure the movement of the pressure plate when the
voltage is applied. If the clearance is not within the specified limits, the
pressure plate must be reshimmed (see A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH
OVERHAUL ).
Clearance: 0.35-0.6 mm (0.014-0.024 in.)
Fig. 117: Measuring Clearance Between Pulley And Pressure Plate With
NOTE: The shims are available in three thicknesses: 0.1 mm,
0.3 mm and 0.5 mm.
Remove the pressure plate (A) and shim(s) (B), taking care not to lose the shim
(s). If the clutch needs adjustment, increase or decrease the number and
thickness of shims as necessary, then reinstall the pressure plate, and recheck
2007 Honda Accord
2003-07 HVAC Heating/Air Conditioning - Accord
its clearance (see A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH CHECK ).
Check resistance of the field coil. If resistance is not within specifications,
replace the field coil (see A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH OVERHAUL ).
Field Coil Resistance: 3.9-4.3 ohms at 68°F (20°C)
If you are replacing the field coil, remove the snap ring (A) with snap ring
pliers, then remove the pulley (B). Be careful not to damage the pulley or the
A/C compressor.
Remove the screw, the wire harness clip (A), and the holder (B). Remove the
snap ring (C) with snap ring pliers, then remove the field coil (D). Be careful
not to damage the field coil or the A/C compressor.
Reassemble the clutch in the reverse order of disassembly, and note these
items:

Install the field coil with the wire side facing down, and align the boss on
the field coil with the hole in the A/C compressor.

Clean the pulley and A/C compressor sliding surfaces with contact cleaner
or other non-petroleum solvent.

Install new snap rings, note the installation direction, and make sure they
are fully seated in the groove.

Make sure that the pulley turns smoothly after it's reassembled.

Route and clamp the wires properly or they can be damaged by the pulley.

sytntyt

to make things simpler, I would use a feeler gauge instead of a dial indicator. Its much cheaper and will be faster than setting up the dial indicator. use the specs .35mm- .6mm for gap, stick the feeler gauge between the clutch face and clutch puller. slide the feeler gauge in and out, you should have slight drag, nothing to loose and nothing that you are forcing the gauge into the area being measured. do this until you get to a gauge that is to hard to fit and that will give you your gap measurement. if its larger than .6mm you need a new clutch set. Might as well replace the coil while your doing that unless you want to do it again.
A special tool is needed to hold the clutch face when removing and installing other wise it will just turn.
Shims and c-clips come with new clutch kits and coils.
As for the mechanic tapping on the face of the clutch and then it working sounds like a bad clutch but don't rule out the fact that it could be a coil, and by tapping on the face isn't shocking the internals of the coil into working again. Much like if you have a faulty fan motor or starter solenoid, and banging on it will sometimes get it working, if only briefly.

smithly

Thanks for the feedback. I was wondering if that would work. That's what I will do. I have some new feeler gauges. If the gap is not right, I can remove some shims to get the gap corrected before paying for a new clutch or coil. Is the coil the same part as the clutch?

sytntyt

the coil is the electrical portion that energizes and pulls the clutch face towards the pulley. it is 2 separate parts. you can try shimming it slightly smaller to see what happens. be careful no to go to small or the clutch will be engaged at all times even with the a/c off. Just an FYI, the clutch is basically 2 halves with friction material between them and they do wear out.

smithly

Havent got to it yet. If the gap adjustment doesnt work, is it worth it to try to change just the clutch or coil or both? My compressor still sounds good w/ no leaks.

sytntyt

Cheapest way would be buy a clutch Set. However I only say to do the coil because it's behind the clutch Pulley that would be getting Taken off. Just another c clip and ground bol.

smithly

Well, I finally got to work on it yesterday. The compressor quit coming on all together during the week. When I checked it yesterday, it was getting 12 V to the compressor, but not engaging at all. I even brought a 12V wire straight from the battery and nothing. Checked the resistance on the coil and it was an open circuit. Therefore, it appears that it was the coil going bad all along and it finally went out completely during the week.


Honda wants $183 for a new coil. Regular Parts stores like O-Rielly & NAPA don't carry the coil or clutch, only a complete compressor that requires purchase of a drier and expansion valve and a can of oil to have a warranty. Best price for a decent brand of compressor is about $315. I found a Denso compressor for $340. Compressor turned smooth and easy by hand, but it is almost 10 yrs old. Clutch gap was a little over the max limit of 0.024", but not by much. I will re-shim it if I replace the coil. Debating on a whole new compressor, unless I can get the coil cheaper than $120 or so."


Anyone know a good source for a good, but cheap coil? Is re-using a 10 yr old compressor a bad idea?


Thanks again for all the help!

sytntyt

Try to rockauto.com for the coil possibly. Otherwise I would stiCk to a honda part. For me, if it's that old and mileage is high, I sell the compressor. A genuine Honda remaned unit, although somewhat pricey, will give you a 3 yr/ 36k mile warranty. Most any other reputable place will offer 1 year at mosT.Also do yourself a favor and replace the drier regard less if you replace the cokm pressor or not. Even though the 03-04 are plagued with black death , I have seen a high rate of failures in 05-06 range as well.

smithly

They didn't have the compressor coil, but they did have a Denso Compressor for $200, which is the best price so far. Have you used RockAuto before? Are they pretty good parts? The compressor I found was "DENSO First Time Fit® A/C Compressor"

sytntyt

Yes I have used them multiple times and know many people who use them exclusively.

smithly

Found the H20-7303 Coil w/ wire and plug for $22.09 + $15.77 UPS Ground shipping from ACKits.com. May be cheap, but I could buy 5 by the time I buy on OEM coil. Should install this weekend.

smithly

Coil arrived today. Going to try to install it tomorrow (Thursday evening). I already rented a clutch holding tool from AutoZone and tried it and was able to remove the center bolt and remove the clutch w/o a pulley remover. There was only one shim. It was 1.22mm thick, therefore I wont have any clutch gap adjustment unless I purchase some shims. It didn't appear far out of spec, but it was difficult to measure with a feeler gauge since the pulley is in the way. The feeler gauge has to come in at an angle due to the pulley surrounding the clutch gap. I guess that's why a dial indicator is recommended in the Honda manual. I didn't attempt to remove the pulley snap ring and remove the pulley and coil. I will have to remove the (4) compressor mounting bolts to get to the snap ring w/ pliers. From the manual, it doesn't appear that I will need to rent a puller to remove the pulley. Please correct me if you know different. Seems pretty easy. Just a little tight on space. Any advice is appreciated

sytntyt

You will need something to get the pulley off. They are somewhat of a press fit. You won't be able to just grab it and slide it off. Either a puller or a rubber Mallet will need to be used.

smithly

Got the coil installed last night. It cooled great!!! Thought my 17 yr old daughter would finally quit sweating it out. The new coil resistance was right at the upper spec limit (I think it was 4.6 Ohms.... if I remember correctly). I measured the clutch gap with a dial indicator and it was right at the spec upper limit of 0.024". Everything worked great last night, but I noticed that the coil area was a little hot to the touch. I wasn't sure if that was normal due to normal engine heat. Today the A/C quit working again. The compressor is getting 12V, but seems to be straining to engage the clutch (it wasn't doing that last night). The new coil also seem to draw too much amps. I say this because my brother tested it with some type of circuit tester he has and it would trip his tester repeatedly. The relays were switched and no difference. The radiator cooling fans are working properly.
Would a bad clutch cause the new coil to draw more amps or overheat? The compressor seems in good smooth quiet condition. Should I try to change the clutch and coil????

smithly

Just took off clutch and pulley. Coil is melted and made a huge mess. Plastic / copper is smeared in the pulley and clutch plate gaps. Bearing still seems smooth, but likely got hot. A little grease came out from heat, but that's it for bearing. I'm reluctant to try to clean this mess and re-use heated parts. Clutch plate is a little blue-ish, so it got real hot. I don't know what happened. Snap rings still in place. I rotated the pulley by hand after everything was assembled and it was very smooth. At this point, I'm probably better off scraping everything. Its probably not worth another coil, a new clutch and pulley with bearing. Thinking I just as soon replace this 9 yr old compressor (even though it still seems good) and get a new coil, clutch and pulley w/ bearing and chalk it up to lesson learned. Your thoughts???

smithly

I didn't get to work on it this weekend due to Mothers Day and my other Daughters BDay. Will try after work one day this week. The shop that worked on it is a friend of the family. They are not AC Experts, but they do a lot of work on bigger work trucks. They have the RobinAir CoolTech 34788. When this first started, they added a very small amount of 134a to get the low side pressure about right and vent blowing cold. Not long after my daughter left their shop, it still would still blow hot periodically, so I changed then changed the Drier and all the O-Rings (to remove any possible moisture and avoid any possible leaks). They then noticed that the clutch wasn't kicking in when it was blowing warm intermittently and they tapped it and it would kick in easy with a tap. It eventually wouldn't kick in at all and I confirmed an open circuit through the coil. That's when I thought it had been the coil all along and changed the coil and re-installed the clutch with the same shim that maintained the same gap of 0.024". Then it melted the coil. The belt did not look affected and no signs of belt slippage or overheating belt. Compressor still turned smooth and no signs of leakage from compressor seal. Therefore, I'm assuming the heat stayed local to the clutch and coil (and bearing). The bearing is still surprisingly smooth. I'm hoping the clutch gap just wasn't sufficient and caused clutch slippage and overheating of clutch and coil.
Tell me if this plan sounds like the correct path..... I will first get the "refrigerant" sucked out by the machine again so I can measure the oil that comes out this time (I'm not going to try the cup trick this time...Lol). I will remove the old compressor and pour the remaining oil out of the high & low ports and measure. I will add 143a measured by machine and oil poured from old compressor. This is how much needs to be in the new compressor. I will remove any new oil from new compressor and WHEN I recharge with the machine, I will have them add new PAG46 oil (total previously measured from machine and old compressor) with the machine when recharging 134a. I'm assuming the machine is a better way to add oil than pouring it in the low side of the compressor, but I may be mistaken....
At worst, I may be off by the 3/4 Fl Oz I had them add earlier. That had accounted for the supposed 1/3 Fl Oz that Honda said the drier usually holds and some ??? amount that I discharged into the cup.
When I remove old compressor, I will look at high side compressor port and high side hose to determine if there is any "debris" such as gummed up oil or metal fragment. If so, I will have to flush everything and replace expansion valve and drier (and possible condenser it sounds like from your advice). If there is no evidence of debris, I may be able to safely assume that all my problems were local to the clutch (external to the compressor) and I wont have to go through all the extra effort of flushing and pulling the evaporator to change the expansion valve. Luckily CARQUEST will warranty the new 1 yr Denso compressor with "just a drier replacement" (which I already did before this melted coil).
Does that path sound reasonable or am I really gambling big time? Thanks!!!

sytntyt

Did the original drier sound like a maracas for lack of better words? Or did it have any black ***** when u
you looked inside the ports?

smithly

No strange sounds. I will look in the old drier tonight, but I didn't notice anything unusual. I'm just wondering what could have locked up the clutch to make it slip on the pulley so bad and get so hot that it melted the coil. I'm thinking I put too much oil and sent a slug of liquid through the compressor and wrecked my compressor. But I only put 3/4 Fl Oz when I changed the Drier and O-Rings.

smithly

Well, I bit the bullet... Changed the Compressor (w/ new clutch & coil), expansion valve, condenser & drier. I flushed the evaporator and hoses. I then changed all the O-Rings & Schrader valves again and lubed them all with Ester 100 Oil. I added 5-1/3 Fl Oz of PAG 46 Oil to the low suction side of the compressor after it was installed on the engine and rotated the compressor about 10 times in the clockwise direction after the lines were re-connected to the compressor. I installed the drier last, then vacuumed it for at least 2 hours. I removed the vacuum pump and it held 29 in Hg for a few hours. Sending it to the shop today to get charged with 17.6 - 19.4 Oz 134a per spec.
I wasn't too sure on the way I added the oil. Am I ok with the way I added the oil?

TheCoolNamesAre

I have a similar problem with my 2006 Accord but mine does have the dual mode. My blows cool on the passenger side but not the drivers side. Would I follow the same proceedures mentioned for the Accord without dual mode ?

Lost Again

Just so I'm clear, one side is cooling and the other is not?

First thing I would do is get any HVAC codes - there are "how to's" out there, no tools needed.

Next have the system pressures tested, one of the most common signs of low charge in the system is "un-even" cooling between the drivers and pass sides.

TheCoolNamesAre

I'll do that as soon as I get back in town. Thanks for the input.