SW20FL

My buddy took his 1994 Accord to get smogged and it failed. They said the timing was 36 degrees advanced and had high NOX gasses. The high timing assumed caused the high nox gases. Passed HC and CO tests with no problem.

EGR ports are clean.

Wires, cap, rotor and has new NGK plugs.

New O2 sensor.

Cam timing is 100% good. The "up" mark was facing up and the two small intents on the cam gear were lined up with the head at the same time the crank pulley was lined up at the 0 degree mark and the notch on the lower cover.(single mark to the right of the three). Put timing belt on and spun it a few times and recheck to make sure it didn't settle in another spot. - It didn't so it's good.

When I try to time the car, I put the ECU in diagnostic mode, hook the magnet to the #1 plug wire and start adjusting. NONE of the marks come close to where they are supposed to be no matter how far I turn the distributor. They get closer the more advanced I put it, but not close enough. The car was purchase with the distributor almost all the way advanced. I retarded the timing (turned distributor counter clockwise looking at the face of it) and set it in the middle. Took it to get smogged again and now shows up as 38 degrees advanced. What the??

Car shows no CELs when driving. The check engine light IS functional. Car seems to run great.

What can cause this? TPS? Bad coil? Ignitor maybe? Really need some help here.

The only thing I can assume is a bad coil now because it has two visible cracks on it, but I need to be sure that this would cause such a crazy condition.

I heard it's impossible to install the distributor 180 degrees backwards.

92_civic

when their saying its 38 advanced is that on a scan tool readout?, thats reading after computer advance not base timing which should be 12-14 degrees, what type of timing light are you using? does it have an advance dial on it? I always jump the ecu, set the timing light dial to 14 degrees and then dial in the timing by adjusting the dist.

i always thought 38 degrees advance at idle or light load was pretty normal, I'll see if I can plug into my car and see what the advance is at idle, its been a long time since I had to look at scan tool readouts on a civic, so my memory on whats normal computer advance might be waaay off so don't hold me to it

you can always try backing out the timing some more, retard it a little past the middle (towards the firewall) and take it for another emissions test...also test results/readouts are a big help in figuring out why the nox is so high...what are the nox, co, and hc readings and limits? I'll subscribe to the thread and keep and eye on it for you

MAD_MIKE

I'm going to say the Smog Techie was smoking the Cocaína.

I take it you fellas installed the camshaft belt and then set the timing by jumping the blue connector by the glove box correct? And you set the timing at the correct rpm?

Check the crank pulley, the outer ring may have slipped in relation to the inner hub. This will be noticeable, verify that the rubber elastomer has not failed.

The timing may be high, but the simple question is did the tech install his timing gun on the wrong spark plug wire? I've had the techies goof on verifying timing by not jumping the connector and putting the timing light on the wrong wire.

Post up all the numbers as well, HC, CO, O2, CO2, NOx. That will help us help you determine where the tune is.

SW20FL

92_civic, Yes I jumped the ECU connector on the passenger's side foot well, and the RPM was about 700 when we set it (right under 750). It's my friend's car so I will have the exact readings by tonight. This is the second time they read the timing was so far off. The first time it was 36 degree and I had retarded the timing for the second smog check and now it read 38 at the shop.

MAD_MIKE, I will check that tonight after work. I'll even post some pics of it. I would assume he hooked it up wrong, but this is the second time.

Thank you guys, I will get back to you tonight.

MAD_MIKE

It could be that the shop either has a busted timing gun or the advance/retard feature on it was activated. Or perhaps your own gun is faulty. But 36-38* advanced at idle? There is something fubar'd.

SW20FL

Alright I checked the crank pulley/harmonic balancer. It has some dry rot, but it doesn't appear to have slipped. I didn't manage to get pictures today, but I'll have them either tomorrow or Sunday.

Readings:

-HC 15 mph

MAX:61
AVE: 27
MEAS: 57

-HC 25 mph

MAX: 36
AVE: 16
MEAS: 47



-CO 15 mph:

MAX: 0.51
AVE: 0.10
MEAS: 0.56

-CO at 25 mph:

MAX:0.49
AVE:0.09
MEAS:0.52

-NOx at 15 mph:

MAX:490
AVE:165
MEAS: 1579

-NOx at 25 mph:

MAX: 511
AVE: 128
MEAS: 1463

MAD_MIKE

Running slightly rich it appears.

You will need to verify that the timing is correct. There isn't much to the F22s. The dist is directly driven off the back of the cam, which is run off the crank via the belt.

If there is a timing issue its one of two things. The cam to crank timing is off due to incorrect setting, or bad tensioner. Or the outer ring on the balancer is slipping.

dansaleen_04

Sorry to barge in on this but I am assuming by the ecu connector mentioned, we are speaking about the CEL 2 pin connector under the glovebox right? If this is it I may sound like an idiot but what does jumping this connector have to do with timing. I have done LOTS of swaps and having to time them and every single one has been timed right and performed right. What does jumping the connector do for timing? Its just a question to better my knowledge please if at all possible. TIA!

GoodSpeed150

Offtopic: Haha! Didn't know you where on Hondatech. We gotta catch up sometime. Hope you get your problem fixed.


-Charles

MAD_MIKE

It disables the advance/retard mechanism in the distributor. This assures that your base timing is indeed the base timing. Some vehicles are not as sensitive to timing changes at lower engine speeds, but even on the Accord I've noted a slight wander in the timing when the connector was not jumped. Best to be safe than sorry.

SW20FL

Whats up Charles! Been a long time! Youre here too? I almost forgot you recently got an Accord.We do gotta catch up man. pm sent.


Well, we discovered the timing belt was not changed as the PO said, so while we change the timing belt/ tensioner and water pump, we will also replace the harmonic balancer and the coil. I don't see any other reason for the timing marks to be so far off besides the coil with two cracks in it and the harmonic balancer.

The timing light works because the marks are where they are supposed to be on my 1997 Civic DX. I will update fur sure!

Nicefeet

Have you tried swapping around the distributer drive?

The drive key is offset and can be installed wrong if someone swapped the internal oil seal at some point.

SW20FL

hmmmm. I haven't tried that. I would "assume" that it isn't rebuilt wrong. I noticed that the distributor was a rebuilt unit when I changed the cap and rotor.

SW20FL

Okay. This is crazy.

The water pump was leaking so I replaced the timing belt, tensioners and waterpump. I removed the crank pulley. I checked it with the marks on the crankshaft. The crankpulley is GOOD. It did not slip.

The mechanical timing is 100% dead on. Guaranteed. I looked at the key on the crankshaft when lining it up. That can't slip so I know it is 100% on.

When I got the belt on, I spun it to make sure it didn't slip a tooth.


My timing light is good. I used it on my 97 Civic and I got 100% dead accurate readings (when I set the light at 0, the timing read 12 degrees and when I set the light at 12, the timing read 0). The accord is doing the exact opposite now that I come to think of it. It reads 16 when i set it at 16 and no matter where I move the distributor, it doesn't line up with the marks.

I noticed that the distributor is rebuilt. I removed the distributor and tried to 180 degree the distributor, but it won't allow you to put it on backwards. To my understanding, it can be rebuilt 180 degrees backwards? This is the last thing that I think it can be. My only and last resort is swapping distributors. What do you guys think?

The coil was cracked, so we installed a new coil. Still no change.

MAD_MIKE

So if you set the advance on the light to 0* what reading do you get? 32*?
Even if it was, the timing would be off by 90*. Cam/dist rotate at 1/2 speed of the crank.

Are you positive you positive the cam belt was installed correctly?
Are you sure you have the ignition wires correctly routed. I see these often marked wrong in books.

SW20FL

I'm 120% positive the cam belt was installed correctly. I've replaced timing belts before (not on Accords, but Civics, Toyotas, etc). There is a notch on the crankshaft end that lines UP with a notch on the block TDC. This time I lined it up with the TDC mark on the crankshaft and block. I lined them up. I made sure they were lined up dead on, not 1/2 inch off. Cam pulley was set with arrow facing UP, and the two dimples on the side are lined up PERFECTLY with the head. When I set the crank to zero, the cam is still lined up where it should be. I wish I could take a video, but my camera is too slow to show timing marks from flashes.


Spark plug wire routing. I am not 100% sure. Where can I find a diagram? The wires were replaced, but I did them one at a time and I put them exactly where the old wires came off of.


If I set the light to zero, the timing would show something way below 15 degrees. Something like 3-5 degrees. If I set the timing light to 35, it lines up with the 0 mark on the pulley (that's probably what the smog shop was doing), and if dialed to ~16ish, it lines up with the three marks.

My co-worker has a few spare distributors for these Accords. I am going to test that out since it doesn't hurt.

MAD_MIKE

The triple marks should have red paint on them, THAT is your timing mark. Not the single notch.

DELTRON3030

sup man, just came to the site today because I have the same exact problem except its on a 93 del sol (d16z6) i have tried 3 dizzys. nothing. might check my thread out in the tech section. i think i have narrowed it down to maybe the timing belt or tensioner is messing up so it looks like its on when the car is off but when its on its about a mark off. i have moved the cam one tooth each direction and it is just opposite, instead of 20 degrees retarded id be 20 advanced and have to move the dizzy the opposite way, pings like a **** there too. im gonna look into the dizzy oil gasket maybe being installed incorrectly. but i'll let you know my progress, peace.

ps... asked many pros and they don't have a clue. every honda freak i know, everyone. hmm suddenly the knowledge is lost??? lol

im thinking of just getting an adjustable cam gear because I cant go in the middle of a tooth. maybe a wrong belt. who knows, always better to do alota research than rip the timing belt apart. then woops its a sensor. fu#k!

quickster

Its easier just to register your car at a family members house who lives outside of the metropolitan area.

DELTRON3030

huh? please explain

quickster

I believe I had to call up my bank and change my address, then wait for my next statement to cut. Since I have online statements, I just printed one out. Brought that into the DMV as proof of address. I live in Oregon though. The only place that you have to smog your vehicle is in Portland. My parents like 45mins south in Salem(where you dont have to smog) so it works out.

You register your residental address as the family members that lives outside of the metropolitan area, or somewhere that doesnt require a smog check. Then write in your actual address for your mailing address and lie, tell them you are on alot of business here and in between houses. The DMV does not investigate and will not look into it as long as you have paperwork to prove that you live somewhere.

Just sayin....if its going to take alot of time and money to get it up to spec on an older car like that. I would think about looking into ways to exploit the system. At least you can get your car on the road legally and immediately and you can fix it later.

SW20FL

I'm aware of that. When the timing light is set at 0, I line it up with the three marks (14, 15, 16 degrees iirc). Then vise versa when setting it when adjusting the **** on the timing light.

I'm just using the single mark (0 degree mark) to explain. The car runs great now and we have temp tags and can get registration extensions. Either way, we can get a "hook up" on smog as a last resort, but we want to try and fix the problem if possible.

I appreciate all of your help. I am going to find a diagram to see if the spark plug wires are crossed.



Just remembering now, I remember I had the same problem with a 1991 Toyota Mr2 Turbo, except it was the throttle position sensor. Somebody attempted to mess with it, then adjust it with white out...lol. I do definitely doubt that's the problem, but I'll check the specks with my multimeter just in case....

MAD_MIKE

When the timing light is set to 0*(no advance or retard), the red marked triple lines line up with the timing mark?


Just to verify procedure...
Start the car and let it warm up til the cooling fan kicks on for one cycle.
Turn car to OFF.
Jump blue connector at the glove box.
Restart car.
Verify that the idle is ~700rpm
With the ignition gun induction lead facing the correct way(it can be installed upside down, check the arrow), and attached to the #1 sparkplug wire(closest to the front of the engine, or cam belt) with the gun itself set to 0* aim for the pointer.
If the strobe lights up the mark between the red and white marks, the timing is retarded.
If the strobe lights up the mark before the red, it is advanced.
If you cannot adjust the timing far enough, remove the bolts holding the distributor on, and with a helper have them rotate the distributor enough to get the timing marks to line up.
Make a mental note, and mark how far the distributor is off.
With the engine off, rotate the crank pully so it is at TDC, white mark under pointer.
Remove upper cam belt cover off.
Verify cam sprocket is correctly timed. The arrow on the sprocket will either point up, or be 180* out and be pointing down.
If it is, verify that the cam sprocket to camshaft is tight and that the key is not missing.
If the camshaft is not lined up with the crankshaft correctly there will be no way to correctly time the distributor.
If the camshaft is correctly timed, check the distributors cap and rotor, make sure they are at least made by the same company. Mixing and matching cap/rotors in the aftermarket can sometimes net an unintentional advance or retard in timing. Always replace both components with the same manufacturer.

DELTRON3030

I live in Sacramento, California so i dont think that is an option here. good ol cali smog
And to MAD MIKE - does it matter if the car is running and i jumped the ecu? dont think it would

MAD_MIKE

I don't think it would but I always do it that way, sometimes the idioms of procedure are best to maintain. I've had goofy things like skipping a step, as mundane as it seems, has royally bit me in the *** in the past.